Current or planned state of DCS World Electromagnetic Warfare???

[GumidekCZ]

I have an question for ED or DCS knowledge specialist. Why? Because many toppics mention down here are covered in kind of shadow in DCS to me. Or explanation of these will bring the light for some of new commers or anyone who had no idea of such physics/system/sumulation.

 

 

1) What is the current or near future (1 year) planned state of DCS Electromagnetic Warfare?

2) Which sources of electromagnetic spectrum are detectable, how they can be detected or jammed.

3) How the radars now emits energy? Is scanned azimuth (L/R, narrow, wide) and selected number of bars affecting EM emission of the waves?

4) How big are STT cones are how far can RWR detect other radar emissions and hard locked STT cone energy?

5) Can the RWR detected energy even when located inside of enemy radar limits, but outside of currently scanned azimuth and elevation?

6 ) Are the same rules applied to AI as are for human controlled units?

7) What kind of JAMing do we have in DCS? (Noise Jamming, Deception ECM -range/angle) -added

__7a) How the Radar burnthrough range is calculated and how ECM effect detection range? -added

__7b) Is communications systems JAMing planed to be implemented to DCS in future? -added

8 ) Which modules simulates negative effect of being jammed?

9) Which modules or assets can JAM others?

10 ) If ECM is used in DCS World, is here simulated limited JAM direction or adjustable JAM direction by advanced JAMing systems?

11) Are all these EM warfare things scripted same way for any of the module - FC3 including

12) Are all these EM warfare things scripted same way Human controlled machine, and for AI?

13) How is in the DCS World simulated the difference between AESA and Doppler radar?

14) What platforms together with what missiles can now shoot HOJ?

15) How is the RCS calculated for any of DCS world unit and how it affects its detectability?

16) Is the RCS value changing by different reflection angle of the unit?

17) Is in DCS World simulated equation between RCS and distance for all radar equipped units?

16 ) Do the DCS players have access to the detecting limits Range vs RCS, or will they some day?

19) How the Pulse Repetition Frequency is simulated? Is the some heavy equation mathematic thing or just simple multiply by an given coefficient.

20) How the Doppler gate is simulated? If I hang my a/c on tail pipes - almost sitting in the air, does it mean that I will be invisible to doppler based radars?

21) Does the Notch maneuver and slip through Doppler gate also in effect when flying in vertical?

22) How Chaff countermeasures effectiveness are calculated in DCS World?

23) What effect have the amount of Chaff released, how the release interval can affect its effectiveness?

24) Is Chaff corridor planed to be implemented to DCS in future? (Such a curtain can so confuse radars that they are unable to locate the real targets within the chaff cloud. Chaff drops so slowly that it normally takes many hours to reach the ground.) -added

 

Little bit off topic, but since we have TV/IR sensors also involved in search for targets, I would like to post here also the question about it:

1) Are the optic sensors presented at any of the modules (CF3 included) affected by smoke or humidity presented in line of sight or just simply the size of the target?

2) Can IR guided missile guide itself thru the cloud (falling snow at winter) or can be confused by any burning (not smoking) ground fire?

Edited August 12, 2020 by GumidekCZ

[pepin1234]

Yes currently is the same way for all modules. At 50km range ECM have no effect. Easy and unrealistic for only one side for F-14 and now improved Aim-120 users.

[stormrider]

I have an question for ED or DCS knowledge specialist. Why? Because many toppics mention down here are covered in kind of shadow in DCS to me. Or explanation of these will bring the light for some of new commers or anyone who had no idea of such physics/system/sumulation.

 

 

1) What is the current or near future (1 year) planned state of DCS Electromagnetic Warfare?

2) Which sources of electromagnetic spectrum are detectable, how they can be detected or jammed.

3) How the radars now emits energy? Is scanned azimuth (L/R, narrow, wide) and selected number of bars affecting EM emission of the waves?

4) How big are STT cones are how far can RWR detect other radar emissions and hard locked STT cone energy?

5) Can the RWR detected energy even when located inside of enemy radar limits, but outside of currently scanned azimuth and elevation?

6 ) Are the same rules applied to AI as are for human controlled units?

7) What kind of JAMing do we have in DCS?

8 ) Which modules simulates negative effect of being jammed?

9) Which modules or assets can JAM others?

10 ) If ECM is used in DCS World, is here simulated limited JAM direction or adjustable JAM direction by advanced JAMing systems?

11) Are all these EM warfare things scripted same way for any of the module - FC3 including

12) Are all these EM warfare things scripted same way Human controlled machine, and for AI?

13) How is in the DCS World simulated the difference between AESA and Doppler radar?

14) What platforms together with what missiles can now shoot HOJ?

15) How is the RCS calculated for any of DCS world unit and how it affects its detectability?

16) Is the RCS value changing by different reflection angle of the unit?

17) Is in DCS World simulated equation between RCS and distance for all radar equipped units?

16 ) Do the DCS players have access to the detecting limits Range vs RCS, or will they some day?

19) How the Pulse Repetition Frequency is simulated? Is the some heavy equation mathematic thing or just simple multiply by an given coefficient.

20) How the Doppler gate is simulated? If I hang my a/c on tail pipes - almost sitting in the air, does it mean that I will be invisible to doppler based radars?

21) Does the Notch maneuver and slip through Doppler gate also in effect when flying in vertical?

22) How Chaff countermeasures effectiveness are calculated in DCS World? What effect have the amount of Chaff released, how the release interval can affect its effectiveness?

 

 

Little bit off topic, but since we have TV/IR sensors also involved in search for targets, I would like to post here also the question about it:

1) Are the optic sensors presented at any of the modules (CF3 included) affected by smoke or humidity presented in line of sight or just simply the size of the target?

2) Can IR guided missile guide itself thru the cloud (falling snow at winter) or can be confused by any burning (not smoking) ground fire?

 

Radar modeling in DCS is very simplified and short on variety. You can check the files yourself somewhere inside the DCS/Scripts folder.

[Emmy]

ECM and ECCM are serious black arts and are probably the most closely guarded of military secrets.

 

I think we’ll all have to live with simplifications in DCS. That’s not to say things couldn’t be perhaps modeled better but it will likely never be 100% accurate.

[Extranajero]

ECM and ECCM are serious black arts and are probably the most closely guarded of military secrets.

 

I think we’ll all have to live with simplifications in DCS. That’s not to say things couldn’t be perhaps modeled better but it will likely never be 100% accurate.

 

The specific implementations are closely guarded, sure - but the principles and techniques of electronic warfare are very well understood and documented in any amount of open source literature. You can buy academic textbooks on the subject.

 

There are no reasons of secrecy ( as in unavailability of information ) why ECM techniques of the 50's 60's and 70's can't be simulated. The current DCS level is roughly late WW-2 in sophistication.

[QuiGon]

I would already be happy if the aircraft in DCS would be equally treated in terms of ECM. Currently some aircraft (F-16, F/A-18) have no ECM modelling at all, meaning they are totally imune against jamming, while others (F-14) have their own jammer implemented and working but have no jamming effects modeled if jammed by someone else. That gives those planes a pretty unfair and unrealistic advantage.

 

See this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247462

[Cmptohocah]

ECM and ECCM are serious black arts and are probably the most closely guarded of military secrets.

 

I think we’ll all have to live with simplifications in DCS. That’s not to say things couldn’t be perhaps modeled better but it will likely never be 100% accurate.

 

You can find out more about "black arts" in the following video:

 

[falcon_120]

ECM in each plane, how good it is, and against what type of source its better will always be totally unaccesible info. A same jammer could be absolutely effective against a mig29 radar but may be almost totally ineffective against a particular SAM. Due to eccm techniques in each system and due to gathered info by elint planes for example .

 

Having said that, DCS could simulate much better different techniques of jamming and its effects against missiles, fighters and ADS. The effect they will obtain(wrt ranges or effectiveness) will be totally made up, but the technique behind and tactic diversity and importance of having a jammer on will be there. So yes, they should improve the simulation as much as possible.

 

 

 

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

Edited August 11, 2020 by falcon_120

[Extranajero]

I would already be happy if the aircraft in DCS would be equally treated in terms of ECM.

 

The world doesn't revolve around 'fairness' in PvP multiplayer, even though it seems you'd like it to.

Where I come from we have a saying that goes " It's a case of the tail wagging the dog "

[GumidekCZ]

Discussion is always nice, but what I’m looking for are true answers to my points (graphics, tables, diagrams can be added). Bear in mind that everything in DCS World and all modules including, are unclassified data, therefore we can have access to it. Everyone wants to know how the game works. So many years some of these points are covered with shadow cover. Sometimes I seemed to me that this is purpose of ED devs, less data and explanation give us less topics to argue about or to demand updates/upgrades. My last experience was for example when I kindly ask to for explanation of simulation AESA radar on DCS E-3 AWACS and its scan limits angles (didn’t receive it yet, if ever will). I hope, that may be this time, someone from ED will be more generous and will share the knowledge with all of us.

[QuiGon]

The world doesn't revolve around 'fairness' in PvP multiplayer, even though it seems you'd like it to.

Where I come from we have a saying that goes " It's a case of the tail wagging the dog "

It's unfair, because it's unrealistic! IRL each plane that has a radar is susceptible to jamming, but the Hornet, Viper and Tomcat are missing such effects in DCS. So, while these aircraft can be jammed IRL they can not be jammed in DCS and that is unfair compared to the other aircraft in DCS that can be jammed.

Edited August 11, 2020 by QuiGon

[Extranajero]

So many years some of these points are covered with shadow cover.

 

I don't think it's a big secret, I think that the ED devs are using very simple methods to model something that is very, very complex. To give a false impression of depth to the end user.

 

But that is a valid technique in game software engineering, it started with the original 8 bit Elite, where an entire universe was crammed into 64k of memory. And it saves computing power for other things, like frame rates...

There has to be a trade off between what is important and what isn't so important.

[stormrider]

In the end, all this discussion is irrelevant. How can ECM simulation be realistic when Radar simulation is not and will never be to the point where real classified data would actually be needed.

 

It's easy to explain. Sometime during the last decade I found a really interesting open source sonar simulation code, hardcore stuff, the kind that generate the result in the picture below.

 

 

Someone before me already had back then, the idea of integrating that code into a game engine as the very first step into developing a realistic submarine simulator. The problem is that these kind of ultra realistic simulations require so much processing that in order to be able to simulate not one, but multiple entities in the same simulated world it couldn't be done in real time. So inherently, simplifications would have to be done, no matter what. This is applies to everything basically, CFD, Radar, even Light (see ray tracing). You don't have real time CFD simulation not even in flight sims for example; they are processed before hand and data tables are then produced. The thing is to be able to use for example, the known radar physics and make it as complex as the processing capacity permits and as close to realistic as possible, or at least a relevant width of its reality, where one can at least get results approximate statistically. ED neglected the DCS core for quite some time now, so these things fell behind quite ways now in more than one area of the simulation. Radar is one of them.

 

On the other hand, now that we know that it's impossible to actually simulate ultra realistic physics in real time and that everything is a model, then the actual "black magic" of EW becomes quickly irrelevant. Everybody knows what a jammer does and we already have a fair understanding of its workings and evolution. It will never be realistic but nor will radars or even flight models for that matter. So once a better and more complex radar model is written, EW can then be applied at least to produce convincible results.

[bear.is.flying]

It’s possible to have a sophisticated model without physically stimulating each electromagnetic wave. It’s all about how many input factors you’re considering.

 

For your sonar example - imagine a submarine game where the sonar model doesn’t take into account surface ducting or the effect of the thermocline.

[Yeti42]

Obviously they (ED) won't be able to get real world ECM data for most of the aircraft but they could do a better job with a simplified model. More powerful radars like the Tomcat's AN/AWG-9 should obviously be able to burn through ECM at greater distances. It is one of my biggest gripes with the game at the moment....

[stormrider]

It’s possible to have a sophisticated model without physically stimulating each electromagnetic wave. It’s all about how many input factors you’re considering.

 

For your sonar example - imagine a submarine game where the sonar model doesn’t take into account surface ducting or the effect of the thermocline.

 

It wouldnt be a submarine game without those, would it? :smilewink:

[QuiGon]

Darkmage is right, although his example is poorly chosen :D

Surface ducting and especially the thermocline are very important features for subsurface warfare.

 

He's right though that a simulation for a video game like DCS doesn't have to simulate every single sonar wave or radar ray. Games like Command Modern Warfare do a great job with that and even simulate EW much more in-depth than DCS.

Edited August 11, 2020 by QuiGon

[stormrider]

Darkmage is right, although is example is poorly chosen :D

Surface ducting and especially the thermocline are very important features for subsurface warfare.

 

He's right though that a simulation for a video game like DCS doesn't have to simulate every single sonar wave or radar ray. Games like Command Modern Warfare do a great job with that and even simulate EW much more in-depth than DCS.

 

I agree.

[sylkhan]

Obviously they (ED) won't be able to get real world ECM data for most of the aircraft but they could do a better job with a simplified model. More powerful radars like the Tomcat's AN/AWG-9 should obviously be able to burn through ECM at greater distances. It is one of my biggest gripes with the game at the moment....

 

No old technology, a tomcat' radar can't even lock a jamming modern fighter

Edited August 11, 2020 by sylkhan

[stormrider]

No old technology, a tomcat' radar can't even lock a jamming modern fighter

 

Out of curiosity, is that because of the lack of digital signal processing?

[iborg]

Darkmage is right, although is example is poorly chosen :D

Surface ducting and especially the thermocline are very important features for subsurface warfare.

 

He's right though that a simulation for a video game like DCS doesn't have to simulate every single sonar wave or radar ray. Games like Command Modern Warfare do a great job with that and even simulate EW much more in-depth than DCS.

 

 

Having C:MO level simulation of EW (or naval warfare) would bring tremendous value to DCS. And it’s obviously « possible ».

[sylkhan]

Out of curiosity, is that because of the lack of digital signal processing?

 

Asks Dassault ingineers :)

 

".. When we were in the Persian Gulf, we had a week where we fought the Emirati Mirage 2000-5 pilots. They were actually quite aggressive pilots who displayed a keen awareness of the tactics to employ against the weaknesses of the F-14A. They would jam to the merge, then pull 9Gs, flying so high we almost lost sight."

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

[falcon_120]

Asks Dassault ingineers :)

 

 

 

".. When we were in the Persian Gulf, we had a week where we fought the Emirati Mirage 2000-5 pilots. They were actually quite aggressive pilots who displayed a keen awareness of the tactics to employ against the weaknesses of the F-14A. They would jam to the merge, then pull 9Gs, flying so high we almost lost sight."

 

 

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

Just another example, although i cant find no more the reference. In one red flag around 2007ish french mirage 2000-5 came in with new ecm pods to test its effectiveness in close to RL scenarios. Pilots made comments on how good those pods were, being able to constantly brake lock constantly to almost all radars, until almost the merge.

 

Imagine that kind of effectiveness in DCS, it would mean a different game.

 

For me what it would be awesome is that this kind of effectiveness would be randomized considering certain parameters, like for example, elint or jamming planes in the vicinity that have been protected for several hours within a campaign. So, when we have the DC, we can also have this very important assets into consideration that increase the overall effectiveness of jammers to simulate the electromagnetic recon missions.

 

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[QuiGon]

And here we are in DCS, where the AWG-9 is immune against any jamming (and so are the Vipers and Hornets radar)... :music_whistling:

[sylkhan]

..

Imagine that kind of effectiveness in DCS, it would mean a different game.

It would be great and we could start consider DCS as a flight combat simulator.

Something more believable and realistic is very easy to do, but it seems to be delibarate that developpers don't implement some basic about ecm/eccm

 

And here we are in DCS, where the AWG-9 is immune against any jamming (and so are the Vipers and Hornets radar)... :music_whistling:

 

Like i already said, "DCS hollywood combat flight game" :)

Not to mention the phoenix, a pure joke :megalol:

Edited August 11, 2020 by sylkhan