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INS improvements in the 19 Aug 2020 Open Beta


Santi871

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When landing and shutting off the engines for a repair, when you start back up, the Stored Heading option is no longer available in the HSI, even if you turn the INS off and then on. Is this expected behaviour?

 

Also has anyone experienced the INS DEGD warning even after a full 90 second alignment? I am not sure, but it feels like you can't flip over to IFA immediately after getting 0.5s OK on the HSI, it seems you need to wait a few seconds later just to be sure.

 

Get ground crew to connect ground power, and boot that up before you shutdown the engines and request repairs. It'll keep your data most likely.

 

I guess the in-game stored heading option is a "magic" workaround. As such, we have no way of storing the heading for next start-up.

 

Not sure how it should be done, is it automatically saved when shutting down or how...

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Get ground crew to connect ground power, and boot that up before you shutdown the engines and request repairs. It'll keep your data most likely.

 

I guess the in-game stored heading option is a "magic" workaround. As such, we have no way of storing the heading for next start-up.

 

Not sure how it should be done, is it automatically saved when shutting down or how...

 

Not sure about the Hornet but in the Harrier, if you park the jet, perform a full alignment, then move the knob to off (not NAV or IFA), then the offset angle from the carrier is saved and, if the jet is not moved, stored heading can be used on the next CV alignment.

 

However, in your scenario, you are actually parking the jet after a sortie, shutting down, then starting back up. In this case, the jet was used between alignment and being shut off, so I think this is expected behavior.

 

You can try to flip the knob to CV once parked, see if it performs any further alignments, then setting it to off, but I honestly don't know if that's a real life procedure or not.

 

EDIT: Just realized I assumed you were talking about CV alignments. CV re-alignment needs to happen again before shutdown because the stored heading in CV is actually the angular difference in the aircraft's heading vs the boat's heading. In a GND alignment, you should be able to turn off the INS and, as long as you didn't move the jet, use the stored heading method.


Edited by LastRifleRound
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That's not normal, do you happen to have a track? Even if it's just 20 minutes sped up flying in a circle and it shows the issue, it would do the job.

Hey, sorry for the delay. I made two tracks, flying two missions in SP.

 

The 1st track shows that shortly after takeoff, my position on them Moving Map is off and if I perform a TACAN INS update, it gets corrected.

 

2nd track, I have 4x Mk-83s, 2x AIM-7MH, 2x AIM-9M and 1x FT. I take off, climb and head towards the mainland, nothing fancy. Then, I switch to A/G mode and select the Mk-83s in CCIP and the CCIP line is off and the more I pitch down, the worse it is.

 

I try a TACAN update, which fixes the issue, but there's another bug here. I selected Senaki (31X, did it on the carrier deck and 31X was in the saved TACAN beacons on the HSI DATA sub-menu) and my position on the Map was reset somewhere close to WP0. I also do an IFA (RDR, SEA) for good measure and I get 0.5 OK in about 30 seconds. Knob back to NAV, still wrong position. I had to select another saved TACAN to fix that and then 31X worked. I suspect that it has to do with the fact that I selected 31X on the carrier, as this is the first time I see that problem (I normally select the CV TACAN, for departure course).

 

Back to the original issue. Some flying later, it manifests again. Another TACAN update fixes it (why? TACAN should only fix ownship position, no?). I drop two bombs, all good.

 

One turn later, it reappears. I do a TACAN update on 31X, gets worse, switch to 44X, update, fixed. I do an IFA (RDR, LAND) as well, I get 0.5 OK quickly. It appears to be fixed, I do a roll, I notice it again. At this point, I had to stop the session, otherwise the track is too big to upload here.

 

Both missions were set in 1992, Caucasus, cold start from the Stennis. 2.5.6.54046 Open Beta

 

PS. The start up and flying around are a little all over the place, since I was speeding up time for testing. I did go over my normal startup procedure though, more or less.

FA-18C_no GPS_position drift on MM shortly after takeoff.trk

FA-18C_no GPS_position drift and CCIP issues.trk

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  • 2 weeks later...
I have tried in flight alignment (IFA, points 5 and 8 on first message) and at first glance it looks like it works, with the advisory INS message disappearing, but then you can notice that the velocity vector behaves weird and AUTO and CCIP cues are wrong.

See attachments

 

i had the same problem in IFA

 

Same issue. Velocity vector all over the place on IFA.

 

If I do NAV, instead of IFA after the stored alignment, it works - however, I lose alignment after about 20 minutes in the air.

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This is all very confusing to me, would anyone care to build a startup checklist with these new options implemented.

It seems complicated, but it's actually pretty straight forward. Here is the relevant part of my checklist:

 

INS ALIGNMENT(check LENG RPM >60%) ---- set to GND INS or CV INS (carrier) as rqd

>>STORED HDG ALGN (reduces algn to 90 sec) ---- once GND or CV alignment selected have option on bottom row of AMPCD HSI of STD HDG

ONCE ALIGNED ---- set to IFA (GPS avail) or NAV (no GPS)

 

>>IF NO GPS >> will use WP 0 position as aircraft location (can edit in HSI/DATA page)

 

NOTE: parking break must be engaged for INS alignment

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Would like to know as well!

 

Same, I'm also wondering if ED will have a ME checkbox to have the stored alignment present (like with the Tomcat).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok, I"m sorry guys, but I'm a few fries short of a happy meal in the brain department. Is there a video out there that helps folks like us get this going right? I'm just lost and frustrated; learning by descriptions is a fail for me. The videos that have been made thus far for us that need it have really rocked, and frankly have made me the pilot I am in the game...

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Ok, I"m sorry guys, but I'm a few fries short of a happy meal in the brain department. Is there a video out there that helps folks like us get this going right? I'm just lost and frustrated; learning by descriptions is a fail for me. The videos that have been made thus far for us that need it have really rocked, and frankly have made me the pilot I am in the game...

 

MUST LEAVE PARKING BRAKE ON UNTIL ALIGNMENT IS COMPLETED!

 

1. Once you have the left engine started (or both engines started):

 

2. Turn the INS rotary knob to CV (carrier) or GND (airfield).

 

3. On the HSI, press the OSB to box STD HDG (bottom row, 2nd from left or maybe 3rd).

 

4. Once the two lines lower center of the HSI read: OK and 0.5

 

5. Turn the INS rotary knob to IFA.

 

Whether you choose to complete other steps of startup procedure, or whether you just do the steps above to see what you are needing to do, is up to you.

 

1:17 into the video below shows the OSB boxing STD HDG on the HSI.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I do not endorse the video, or the person who made it, nor is the procedure in which they do the startup correct - but it does show you what OSB to push for the STD HDG for alignment.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie


Edited by Ziptie
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  • 1 month later...
On 8/19/2020 at 1:42 PM, Santi871 said:

In CV alignment mode, initial position is provided automatically via RF (CV SINS) or manually by the pilot (CV MAN).

 

Hello.

 

What are those two methods? For carrier I don't see other positions in the INS knob but the CV one. Am I missing something here?

 

 

Thanks!

On 8/19/2020 at 1:42 PM, Santi871 said:

The stored heading alignment option can now be selected in the HSI when the INS switch is in the GND or CV position. As mentioned above, it reduces alignment time from about 8 minutes to about 90 seconds.

 

Hello.

 

What are the scenarios where someone would not choose stored heading option? I'm trying to understand how it is used in DCS versus IRL.

 

IRL it is saved before shutdown, but how is this used in DCS?

 

I'm guessing the option is there but has no way of not working, right? It just works every time no matter what?

 

 

Thanks.

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On 9/20/2020 at 2:55 AM, Harker said:

Hey, sorry for the delay. I made two tracks, flying two missions in SP.

 

The 1st track shows that shortly after takeoff, my position on them Moving Map is off and if I perform a TACAN INS update, it gets corrected.

 

2nd track, I have 4x Mk-83s, 2x AIM-7MH, 2x AIM-9M and 1x FT. I take off, climb and head towards the mainland, nothing fancy. Then, I switch to A/G mode and select the Mk-83s in CCIP and the CCIP line is off and the more I pitch down, the worse it is.

 

I try a TACAN update, which fixes the issue, but there's another bug here. I selected Senaki (31X, did it on the carrier deck and 31X was in the saved TACAN beacons on the HSI DATA sub-menu) and my position on the Map was reset somewhere close to WP0. I also do an IFA (RDR, SEA) for good measure and I get 0.5 OK in about 30 seconds. Knob back to NAV, still wrong position. I had to select another saved TACAN to fix that and then 31X worked. I suspect that it has to do with the fact that I selected 31X on the carrier, as this is the first time I see that problem (I normally select the CV TACAN, for departure course).

 

Back to the original issue. Some flying later, it manifests again. Another TACAN update fixes it (why? TACAN should only fix ownship position, no?). I drop two bombs, all good.

 

One turn later, it reappears. I do a TACAN update on 31X, gets worse, switch to 44X, update, fixed. I do an IFA (RDR, LAND) as well, I get 0.5 OK quickly. It appears to be fixed, I do a roll, I notice it again. At this point, I had to stop the session, otherwise the track is too big to upload here.

 

Both missions were set in 1992, Caucasus, cold start from the Stennis. 2.5.6.54046 Open Beta

 

PS. The start up and flying around are a little all over the place, since I was speeding up time for testing. I did go over my normal startup procedure though, more or less.

FA-18C_no GPS_position drift on MM shortly after takeoff.trk 4.03 MB · 13 downloads

FA-18C_no GPS_position drift and CCIP issues.trk 4.87 MB · 10 downloads

 

Have you hear back from ED on this Harker?

 

I played you track and I was wondering how does the IFA RDR work? I tried it with the radar turned off and it still worked so don't know if it's a bug or I just don't understand how it is.

 

 

Thanks.

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I realized that no one is following threads now due to the change in the forums so....

 

@Harker

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On 12/8/2020 at 5:30 AM, Joni said:

 

Have you hear back from ED on this Harker?

 

I played you track and I was wondering how does the IFA RDR work? I tried it with the radar turned off and it still worked so don't know if it's a bug or I just don't understand how it is.

 

 

Thanks.

I don't know if the situation has been improved on that front, because I haven't flown any missions without GPS since.

Note that whatever I'm writing after this point is based on my understanding on the NATOPS manual, which might be incomplete or false (my understanding, not NATOPS).

For IFA RDR, looking at NATOPS, it is commanded when GPS is unavailable and the INS knob is placed to IFA. When the radar is available, it can be used in PVU (Precision Velocity Update) mode, to provide Doppler velocity readings for INS alignment and the CONT PVU (Continuous PVU) option shows up on the bottom row of the HSI OSB options, together with a LAND and a SEA option (PVU can be optimized for either land or sea returns). When the radar is not available or the master mode is not NAV, CONT PVU is not show, as it is not possible in the former case and the radar is reserved for combat in the latter case. These parts are correct in DCS right now.

What is not correct in DCS, however, is:

  • When the radar is not available, IFA RDR still completes. It should not. Instead, the alignment time should flash, indicating that IFA RDR is not possible.
  • The radar doesn't need to be in PVU mode, it can be even in TWS and IFA RDR still works.
  • When CONT PVU is selected, the radar should be fully reserved for PVU.
  • When CONT PVU is deselected, the radar should be going into PVU mode for 10 seconds every minute, alternating with the currently selected radar mode, until IFA is complete. If AGR is commanded, CONT PVU is deselected, AGR is commanded for 20 seconds, followed by 10 seconds of PVU and then PVU is commanded for 10 seconds every minute, alternating with AGR.
  • When the radar is available, CONT PVU should be boxed by default (and the box should be around all the label, not only PVU, as it is right now). Deselecting CONT PVU should affect alignment negatively.

Edited by Harker

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8 hours ago, Harker said:

I don't know if the situation has been improved on that front, because I haven't flown any missions without GPS since.

Note that whatever I'm writing after this point is based on my understanding on the NATOPS manual, which might be incomplete or false (my understanding, not NATOPS).

For IFA RDR, looking at NATOPS, it is commanded when GPS is unavailable and the INS knob is placed to IFA. When the radar is available, it can be used in PVU (Precision Velocity Update) mode, to provide Doppler velocity readings for INS alignment and the CONT PVU (Continuous PVU) option shows up on the bottom row of the HSI OSB options, together with a LAND and a SEA option (PVU can be optimized for either land or sea returns). When the radar is not available or the master mode is not NAV, CONT PVU is not show, as it is not possible in the former case and the radar is reserved for combat in the latter case. These parts are correct in DCS right now.

What is not correct in DCS, however, is:

  • When the radar is not available, IFA RDR still completes. It should not. Instead, the alignment time should flash, indicating that IFA RDR is not possible.
  • The radar doesn't need to be in PVU mode, it can be even in TWS and IFA RDR still works.
  • When CONT PVU is selected, the radar should be fully reserved for PVU.
  • When CONT PVU is deselected, the radar should be going into PVU mode for 10 seconds every minute, alternating with the currently selected radar mode, until IFA is complete. If AGR is commanded, CONT PVU is deselected, AGR is commanded for 20 seconds, followed by 10 seconds of PVU and then PVU is commanded for 10 seconds every minute, alternating with AGR.
  • When the radar is available, CONT PVU should be boxed by default (and the box should be around all the label, not only PVU, as it is right now). Deselecting CONT PVU should affect alignment negatively.

 

 

Thanks, very interesting information.

 

How does the radar contribute to reposition the INS location?

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Just guessing, but probably if you lock on RDR known terrain features or objects (maybe even necessary to made to waypoints?), and tell the inertial navigation system: this is what radar tells us now about the location of WP "X", please correlate and update it yourself.

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1 hour ago, Razor18 said:

Just guessing, but probably if you lock on RDR known terrain features or objects (maybe even necessary to made to waypoints?), and tell the inertial navigation system: this is what radar tells us now about the location of WP "X", please correlate and update it yourself.

 

Sounds right, but is it the case?

 

From what Harker said, I didn't catch that.

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You can update the INS Lat/Long position by several means, via the UPDT option. One of them is that you can create a designation with the A/G radar and use that to update the current waypoint (and subsequently the rest). Obviously, it's best if you have that waypoint on an easily recognizable landmark.

 

The PVU mode is for calculating velocities (and I assume altitude? Or maybe that's taken from the altimeter and the pilot needs to put in the pressure corresponding to that altitude etc).

 

It seems that the two processes are separate, at least without GPS. UPDT is used to fix the INS position, IFA is used to fix the INS alignment and velocities.

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1 hour ago, Harker said:

It seems that the two processes are separate, at least without GPS. UPDT is used to fix the INS position, IFA is used to fix the INS alignment and velocities.

 

Absolutely, INS position and alignment are two completely different things.

 

I thought we were talking about position all this time, as alignment should not be an issue once in flight (given that no one is authorized to take off without a proper alignment if not at war and at a particular circumstance), unless you had a failure.

 

So maybe IFA RDR didn't work because you actually had no alignment issues?

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Joni said:

 

Absolutely, INS position and alignment are two completely different things.

 

I thought we were talking about position all this time, as alignment should not be an issue once in flight (given that no one is authorized to take off without a proper alignment if not at war and at a particular circumstance), unless you had a failure.

 

So maybe IFA RDR didn't work because you actually had no alignment issues?

 

 

I was talking from the point of view of the pilot. If GPS is available, it's used to correct position and altitude as well, with IFA, meaning that a separate UPDT step is not always needed. But one can also update the position separately via GPS.

INS alignment can be lost mid-flight due to something as simple as turning the INS knob to off. And it can be degraded as well. If I am interpreting NATOPS correctly, IFA RDR is used to fix the alignment, it has nothing to do with the position. The radar does not need to be in PVU mode and the INS knob does not need to be in IFA to update position via DSG.

In my case, I had both position (wrong distance from WP and on map) and alignment (CCIP line not pointing towards the ground, HUD horizon misaligned) issues. I could fix the position via a TACAN position update and I could fix the alignment with IFA RDR. The problems are that:

  1. IFA RDR worked kinda magically, refer to my previous post about how it's supposed to work.
  2. Alignment got lost extremely quickly, after just a few minutes of normal flying (as in, not extreme maneuvering and pulling a lot of G's).

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7 minutes ago, Harker said:

IFA RDR is used to fix the alignment, it has nothing to do with the position.

 

I know, that's what I said, or tried to. 

 

My understanding is that ED should take a look at this and see if there is a bug on the magical radar alignment procedure and the extremely quick degraded INS.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Joni said:

I know, that's what I said, or tried to. 

 

My understanding is that ED should take a look at this and see if there is a bug on the magical radar alignment procedure and the extremely quick degraded INS.

OK, it took us a while, but we understand each other 😅

Agreed. The INS is still WIP though and there are a lot of radar modes and fixes that need to be implemented. Hopefully these issues will be fixed as part of the larger INS and Radar development updates.

Right now, there are a lot of things that the aircraft knows through "magical" means, an example being that our HSI layout is pre-TAMMAC, but we appear to actually have DTED (as we should, in 2005), because how else is the TPOD able to generate the elevation coordinate of a point, without any kind of ranging or how is CCIP able to generate a solution without AGR or laser ranging? ED said that they will consider bringing the HSI to the TAMMAC standard, but until that happens, we have magic DTED.

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1 minute ago, Harker said:

OK, it took us a while, but we understand each other 😅

Agreed. The INS is still WIP though and there are a lot of radar modes and fixes that need to be implemented. Hopefully these issues will be fixed as part of the larger INS and Radar development updates.

Right now, there are a lot of things that the aircraft knows through "magical" means, an example being that our HSI layout is pre-TAMMAC, but we appear to actually have DTED (as we should, in 2005), because how else is the TPOD able to generate the elevation coordinate of a point, without any kind of ranging or how is CCIP able to generate a solution without AGR or laser ranging? ED said that they will consider bringing the HSI to the TAMMAC standard, but until that happens, we have magic DTED.

 

Yeapers! Agree on all of that. 

 

The DTED part worries me since day 1 of the hornet. I guess they'll just simulate DTED without the TAMMAC layout per se, but I certainly hope they do simulate DTED, otherwise we would not be able to use the slew and designate feature of the HSI (coming later in early access?), and many other things like CR, TGP LOS elevation algorithm, etc. All things we have as of now.

 

So if DTED would not be simulated then our hornet would step down quite big once in release state.

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1 minute ago, Joni said:

Yeapers! Agree on all of that. 

 

The DTED part worries me since day 1 of the hornet. I guess they'll just simulate DTED without the TAMMAC layout per se, but I certainly hope they do simulate DTED, otherwise we would not be able to use the slew and designate feature of the HSI (coming later in early access?), and many other things like CR, TGP LOS elevation algorithm, etc. All things we have as of now.

 

So if DTED would not be simulated then our hornet would step down quite big once in release state.

TAMMAC and DTED are definitely part of our mid-2000s Hornet. The TAMMAC upgrade came before many of the features we currently have, such as the JHMCS and the JSOW. I don't think that actually having DTED will ever be in question. The main issue is that they need to, at the very least, update the HSI layout and add the new options and features that came with TAMMAC (without the ability to select the DTED and CIB maps, they already said they're not going to do that).

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