Credit where credit is due.

[hansangb]

As someone who actually flew P1, Right Hand Seat in the real thing I find it frustrating that you with no real life experience of being in command of the actual Gazelle are attempting to validate your opinion on the reactiveness of the cyclic controls against the real airframe.

 

What point of reference are you referring too? Is it the video on the controls v graphs from the flight manual by the engineer. If so how do you know that the control view is exactly replicating the instruments used in the flight test? You dont!!!

 

Are you referencing other videos on Youtube and making assumptions based on where you assume the cyclic is based on the look of where the cyclic is during a particular manoeuvre against the Controls View? If thats the case then how do you know where dead centre is to reference all movements from?

 

I will inform you now, once and for all......we all know the FM isnt perfect, exact, is missing a few elements but the fine control of the airframe requiring micro movements on the cyclic is exactly as per the real airframe. How do I know because I have real stick time and experience of the actual airframe gained from when I won my Military Wings on the Gazelle.

 

Now if you wish to continue any discussion on this and want a true and accurate perspective from an actual IRL pilot with actual time on the Gazelle please ask away and I will let you know but please dont for one second ever think you can tell me I dont know what I am talking about.

 

Yes, but I heard that you can over-G with the paddle switch. :D

 

Sorry, paying homage to the Folds of Honor thread where a bunch of gamers were arguing with F/A18 pilots. :doh:

 

Thanks for the perspective from real life!

 

I've always been wanting to get back to the Gazelle, and now I have the excuse to do it.

 

Also, was it the Gazelle that was in the movie "Final Option" That iconic seen as the SAS guys were dropped off at the embassy?

Edited October 10, 2020 by hansangb

[Gizmokev]

Thanks Gizmokev,

 

Just wondering on it's capabilities at the moment.

 

Does it have the Mistral anti-aircraft missile available to use? Yes

 

Is it capable of transporting cargo? No

 

Is the sniper available? No

 

Does it have significant speed advantage over the Huey? (What is it's cruise TAS)? Mike cruises at 200kph Lima slightly more

 

I've already got the Huey now which I'm loving off-server just mucking about, and flying by the seat of my pants, so that 'need' is already met.

 

To buy the Gazelle I'm trying to justify it by what I can do with online servers and whether it's going to give me an edge over the Huey. (After all, the Huey was purchased for a different reason - offline 'mucking around' but think with the servers I fly on I'm going to need something a bit more capable than the UH-1 in order to survive). :)

 

Answers in bold. FWIW the gazelle is a cracking little mod. You can go it alone in the lima to take out minor target with rockets and guns or be a little more punchy with the Mike using tows to take out heavier armour. Or if you really want a challenge take any one of the 4 variants and no ammo and become an proper OH guy behind enemy lines reporting in to a friendly A10 or similar to bring in the fire on targets you discover......stay low cos the perspex screen isn't a great barrier against anything fired at you. Its simple to learn and doesn't require much reading of 9" thick manuals to get it working..

 

There are issues with the FM and things are not perfect but wrt the real airframe the "feel" of the module against the real aircraft is great........

 

Get it on a sale or pay full price....up to you but I havent regretted buying it at full price.

 

As for servers come onto LLH or BSD where there are regular missions focused purely around helos.

[docWilly]

Today in DCS 2.5.6.55847 Open Beta:

 

2DzJnH-BByk

 

I don't want to see anything that kind behavior in the Kiowa Warrior.

And I believe that I don't, but the videos there are showing some traits of it.

Time will tell what we get.

 

The often recommended 40% pitch scale, 25% roll scale and -15% collective curve does not change the behavior at all in Gazelle. Same thing is with the SAS enabled or not, no difference.

 

If the problem would have been that Joystick/Throttle/Pedals input is multiplied multifold before outputted to the Gazelle, it would have been super simple fix by just correcting the ratio.

This way player who uses full joystick input scale, would get correct cyclic movement scale and the helicopter would react to cyclic input at correct amount.

 

But it is not the curves or saturation values that is the problem, it is what happens for the flight modeling how main rotor and anti-torque rotor reacts with air, mass and all.

 

 

 

Yes, that is scary indicator for the "improved development" that is supposedly waiting Gazelle.

It is like some of us needs to take a risk with Kiowa Warrior to find out what it really ends up to be in Gazelle.

 

So if/when the Polychop gets their Gazelle fixed, that is the time when credit can be given for all that effort. It is just sad that for years the current owners has been required to fly totally unrealistic helicopter.

 

 

 

 

Dear Fri13,

 

 

I just watched your video about flying the Gazelle with collective/pedals and I REALLY wonder how you cold take off from ground with collective only and not using rudder as shown in your vid.

 

 

 

On my system (using standard Warthog stick - no FFB - and Saitek rudder) it is definitely impossible to take off from ground without using right rudder. As soon as I get light on the skids the helo veers to the left (no wind in the mission) and I have to give quite a certain amount of right rudder to keep it straight. Which is a normal behaviour due to the direction the blades rotate. This momentum is reduced to zero once the helo accellerates to say above roughly 100km/h - once again normal because the fenestron and the airflow over the aircraft compensates this momentum. If airspeed drops again below 100km/h I definitely need right rudder agin to keep it straight. Two years ago I had a conversation with a EC135 pilot who confirmed this behaviour on his airframe (the EC135 has a fenestron as well). Coordinated turns also require rudder input in the sim (as well as IRL).

I really do not know what is going on with your system. Unfortunately I can not show it to you with a video because I am unable to make one.

 

 

Again: I am not saying the FM is perfect nor can I prove it to be perfect - I never flew a helicopter in real life (apart beeing a medic in the backseat of a Huey for 12 yrs)....BUT the behaviour of YOUR Gazelle in YOUR sim setup is not what I have on mine. Definitely no flying without rudder input and collective only possible on my side (and probably on many other simmers side here). This leads me to the conclusion that on your SIM something must be totally different (I avoid saying wrong) so that you are able to take off with collective only which leads to your statements that the Gazelle is totally off from real life behaviour.

 

 

 

My reply is no offense in any way but I have a very, very different behaviour of the Gazelle on my system which replicates what I have seen on real life helicopters like the EC135 (beeing in the backseat as well occasionally).

[barundus]

Ya, sumpin' ain't right in that vid. Massive torque (power) changes, and no anti-torque required on the pedals. I don't have that behavior in my setup. Weird.

[Extranajero]

What sort of settings in DCS can produce that behaviour from the Gazelle ?

Game mode ? autorudder ?

 

I'm using maybe 1/3rd right pedal at take off and have to use the pedals constantly when below about 100 km\h

[docWilly]

What sort of settings in DCS can produce that behaviour from the Gazelle ?

Game mode ? autorudder ?

 

I'm using maybe 1/3rd right pedal at take off and have to use the pedals constantly when below about 100 km\h

 

 

 

 

Nothing triggers such a behaviour. Not arcade mode, not easier controls, not auto rudder trim - checked all of them.

[Extranajero]

Nothing triggers such a behaviour. Not arcade mode, not easier controls, not auto rudder trim - checked all of them.

 

So what are we seeing then ???? this is very strange....

[ngreenaway]

Watch, all y'all figure it out, and then all the sudden he begins to enjoy the gaz..

 

Like dr strangelove " how i learned to stop worrying and love the Gazelle "

[barundus]

What sort of settings in DCS can produce that behaviour from the Gazelle ?

Game mode ? autorudder ?

 

I'm using maybe 1/3rd right pedal at take off and have to use the pedals constantly when below about 100 km\h

 

 

I flew the Gaz last night just to verify. Definitely had torque effects immediately upon getting light on the skids, and lifting. Also power changes produced the expected yaws and required pedal input to maintain heading.

 

No idea if there's a setting to turn that off.

 

 

Also; watch the torque gauge during the vertical maneuvers. It goes all the way up to 95% or so on the initial liftoff, then he plays with it for a minute or two in climbs and descents. The torque gauge behavior doesn't correlate with what the aircraft is doing in terms of yaw, and also the climb/descent behavior

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by barundus

[Ramsay]

I flew the Gaz last night just to verify.

 

Did you test using a 23 knot ground wind ?

 

Gazelle with just pedals and collective individually.

Standard weather otherwise but only 12 m/s (43 km/h, 23 kts, 26 mph) wind at ground level toward 140° (from straight ahead at the take-off direction).

 

Helicopter is flown SAS and TRIM disabled.

Only using collective in the first phase, and then only using pedals by applying constantly different amounts and directions (not to keep it steady for one direction) with full controllability to select direction.

 

Cyclic was never used after showing in the start the controllers full input scale (100% saturation, no curves, no FF enabled etc), so full authority for helicopter inputs exist. Hand was never after take-off on the cyclic, and pedal flying is completely "hands-off".

 

One can fly Gazelle with just feets if wanted to just be flown by the wind to its direction.

 

... that's quite substantial and likely to add a lot of tail fin stabilisation and translational lift to Fri13's Gazelle, making his "demo" far from a typical DCS experience.

 

Note: I haven't tested it myself as I'm aware of the Gazelle's current FM limitations and am patient enough to wait for PC's promised FM rework.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Ramsay

[barundus]

No, I didn't bother to note the conditions when I did my quick test.

 

Agreed a substantial headwind will tend to "weathercock" the airframe into the prevailing wind, but will never totally overcome torque effects. A given wind may weathercock an airframe at a specific torque setting, but once that condition is changed (power change), that equilibrium condition will be changed as well, and there'd be a heading change if no anti-torque was applied.

 

I just wanted to see what behavior is exhibited with power changes; my expectations were confirmed.

 

Not a comprehensive test by any means.

 

Also; I've no interest in re-hashing known issues. I was just trying to replicate the behavior in the posted vid. I couldn't.

 

Something wonky there. Who knows?

 

 

Going back to drinking and virtual flying...

[RealDCSpilot]

It makes the module even worse if it's working randomly different on anyone's pc.

[Donglr]

After reading the original post I also had a look at Casmos's Gazelle experience (

) and I also copied his axes settings. I enjoyed flying the birdy before, but yes - it felt strange. The new settings really make it much more enjoyable for me. I also watched this (

) reply to Casmo's video on the state of the flight model. He seems to have convincing arguments based on available test data that something is amiss with the flight model. But at the end of the day I swallow that pill knowing that I probably don't fly "the real" thing, but man, it is still mad fun! It feels like my own little airborne sportscar and the new axes settings made it even better for me. I am a bloke with no real life helo experience and here I am, stuck between a real pilot saying "it's not too bad" and an aero engineer saying "it has massive flaws". What the hell do I know and how will this affect my decisions on the Kiowa? I honestly do not know. I will definitely not get it right away, I will probablykeep an eye on what people say about it. Rumors are the Devs said they will back-port their newly gained Kiowa flight model knowledge to the Gazelle. That actually would be a major decision maker for me, seeing it for myself (with my limited knowledge) and if a new flight model is able to quiet some of the head wind the Gazelle is getting (will never quite all critics, though).

 

 

In the meantime the Gazelle is still fun, with the new setting even more, in its unique way, just as the make shift flare dispense switch, the aux tank fuel gauge being completely displaced or the low number of HOTs making it only marginally effective on public servers. But it still is my flying sportscar!

[Looney]

Did a few tests with 23 knots headwind and the Gazelle will take off without pedal/cyclic input. Anything less than 23 knots will result in needing to input rudder in order to keep it straight. 23 knots seems to be a threshold of some sorts.

[Adam]

After reading the original post I also had a look at Casmos's Gazelle experience (

) and I also copied his axes settings. I enjoyed flying the birdy before, but yes - it felt strange. The new settings really make it much more enjoyable for me. I also watched this (

) reply to Casmo's video on the state of the flight model. He seems to have convincing arguments based on available test data that something is amiss with the flight model. But at the end of the day I swallow that pill knowing that I probably don't fly "the real" thing, but man, it is still mad fun! It feels like my own little airborne sportscar and the new axes settings made it even better for me. I am a bloke with no real life helo experience and here I am, stuck between a real pilot saying "it's not too bad" and an aero engineer saying "it has massive flaws". What the hell do I know and how will this affect my decisions on the Kiowa? I honestly do not know. I will definitely not get it right away, I will probablykeep an eye on what people say about it. Rumors are the Devs said they will back-port their newly gained Kiowa flight model knowledge to the Gazelle. That actually would be a major decision maker for me, seeing it for myself (with my limited knowledge) and if a new flight model is able to quiet some of the head wind the Gazelle is getting (will never quite all critics, though).

 

 

In the meantime the Gazelle is still fun, with the new setting even more, in its unique way, just as the make shift flare dispense switch, the aux tank fuel gauge being completely displaced or the low number of HOTs making it only marginally effective on public servers. But it still is my flying sportscar!

 

I'm with you. I've had limited experience flying IRL, but pistons only - and have little idea of what to really expect.

 

As for the Kiowa, my usual MO is to wait and see some reviews and reactions. The only exception to this is if it's released with a early access discount or similar - in which case I'll nab it up immediately because I'm fairly confident it's the next bird for me anyway - but if there's no benefit in buying immediately (like a discount) the conservative side of me kicks in and tells me that there's no loss in waiting for some reviews first.