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Pilot stamina


amazingme

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Please introduce pilot STAMINA together with the new damage model. A human cannot withstand the 11 Gs that the Spitfire can pull without blacking out or cannot withstand those G forces for a long period of time followed by another period of high Gs. There are a lot of science data regarding the effects of G forces on a human body. It really adds to the REALISM.

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I could've sworn DCS actually simulated this. Although I seem to recall the pilot in DCS being pretty quick to black out compared to some other combat sims.

 

 

Speaking of, does the pilot currently handle Gs the same in all aircraft in DCS? I would think someone in a modern jet fighter with a G suit (and presumably training, although that might be asking too much considering what I've seen on multiplayer servers :D) would last much longer than someone pulling 11 Gs in a Spitfire.

 

 

I flew with a guy in a certain other F-16 simulator that I swear to god would do straining maneuvers irl during turns. He'd also do complete by the book radio calls when we were landing, despite ATC being run by a pack of distracted cats in that sim.

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  • 7 months later...

i am with you guy, DCS needs pilot stamina model 

Stamina strength could eventually be better for pilots with more flight hours but some upper limit must be there close to average military pilot ...

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On 4/17/2021 at 3:11 PM, Tank50us said:

To that end, why not just go full on RPG with the pilots? We start with a base set of stats, and as we fly, those stats get better or worse?

 

What stats do you suggest are down to the simulator itself rather than the player?  Other than G-tolerance I'm struggling to think of much, without adding automatic helpers for gunnery, AAR, landing approaches, etc.  The way you get better at DCS is by learning the systems and practicing.  How would a set of RPG stats be implemented?

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2 minutes ago, Lace said:

 

What stats do you suggest are down to the simulator itself rather than the player?  Other than G-tolerance I'm struggling to think of much, without adding automatic helpers for gunnery, AAR, landing approaches, etc.  The way you get better at DCS is by learning the systems and practicing.  How would a set of RPG stats be implemented?

One example that comes to mind off the bat is night vision. The more you operate at night, the better your ability to see without NVGs. Alternatively, the more you use them, the better you get with them. Kinda like the real world there. You could also add this to the ground crews. The more they work with you on a particular frame, the better they get at loading it. The more they're required to load a certain weapon, the better it functions (representing their experience with said weapon), things like that.

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1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

One example that comes to mind off the bat is night vision. The more you operate at night, the better your ability to see without NVGs. Alternatively, the more you use them, the better you get with them. Kinda like the real world there. You could also add this to the ground crews. The more they work with you on a particular frame, the better they get at loading it. The more they're required to load a certain weapon, the better it functions (representing their experience with said weapon), things like that.

 

It's an interesting idea, but since the ordnance loading is already massively sped up from real-life, I think any changes in ground crew behaviour is inherently unrealistic anyway.  Essentially you would be penalising those who use a broad variety of airframes, and rewarding those who dedicate all their time to one.

 

I'm not sure about the night vision aspect either.  I've never heard of night vision abilities improving with practice.  Certainly you will become more accustomed to operating at night (pretty much all of my training was at night, because at that time that is when we would be expected to fight - I believe doctrine has changed in recent years), but I don't think night vision ever 'improves' to any measurable degree. 

 

I'm still not sure how any of this can be implemented without either offering some kind of fuzzy logic to the weapons systems, or helping crutches, which IMHO goes against the study sim nature of DCS.  If I miss on a rocket pass it's because I didn't perform the attack correctly, properly taking into account aircraft coordination, range, wind, etc, not because my 'pilot character' lacks the necessary rocket skills.  It works in a game like GTA, I just don't really see it working in DCS.

 

G tolerance, stamina and fatigue may play a part, especially with the dynamic campaign - you cannot for instance just fly back-to-back 12 hour sorties without some serious degradation of combat effectiveness, but again I'm not sure how that would actually play out in the game.  Maybe the contrast and volume of the world just fades over time making target spotting harder, and radio calls to be missed.  Maybe the flight controls get sloppier and sloppier until you take a go pill or get a few hours sleep.  

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RPG stats in a sim is something I consider a complete mistake. Grinding and leveling shouldn't be in the genre, so if it is to be added I think the option to completely disable it is necessary.

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3 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

RPG stats in a sim is something I consider a complete mistake. Grinding and leveling shouldn't be in the genre, so if it is to be added I think the option to completely disable it is necessary.

 

Those are required to require player to put effort to advance in their capabilities and missions. And when you get the advancements and better capabilities, you start to protect them so you don't lose them. That will generate the troubled/stress to player to be more careful and mindful what they are going to do and not to fool around and take stupid risks.

And when player starts to consider risks and possibilities, their gaming style changes and they start to take things more serious. 

 

So of course it needs to be a option to be disabled in the mission design, but not if server enables it or the campaign sets it On.

 

There are players who do not want any realistic G force effects. 

There are players who do not want realistic head movements or any restrictions to anything.

There are players who want all the latest tech and weapons and all....

 

So of course there will be players who do not want any risks to be killed and they have right to be playing it that way if they so want.  

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1 minute ago, Fri13 said:

 

Those are required to require player to put effort to advance in their capabilities and missions. And when you get the advancements and better capabilities, you start to protect them so you don't lose them.

The thing is though, I don't need anything to protect to make me fly carefully. I am careful by default because I take the sim seriously. I also prefer the much more realistic version of training that comes with practicing in reality. In other words I already get better by flying DCS more. I don't need made up number telling me that I've run the game long enough to get a 5% bonus to a skill.

 

While I do see the logic on your side I don't find it compelling, fun, realistic, or necessary. My only desire to be able to ignore it entirely. If people set up their servers to use this feature, that is fine. I just won't join the server.

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On 4/17/2021 at 2:37 PM, cmeliak said:

i am with you guy, DCS needs pilot stamina model 

Stamina strength could eventually be better for pilots with more flight hours but some upper limit must be there close to average military pilot ...

 

Totally. 

 

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So having a virtual pilot that one needs to maintain and have some exercises to build the withstanding and all before getting to turn fighting and all.

 

It would change the gameplay where players with more experienced virtual pilots would be able to pull more G's and recover faster from the effects and all that. But if you lose that virtual pilot (KIA, MIA, POW) then you lose that virtual pilot and you need to "build a new one". 

 

 

Totally optional, those who wouldn't want to enable it wouldn't need to fly with the rules.

Those who do not want to join on such server, fly on others etc.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The thing is though, I don't need anything to protect to make me fly carefully. I am careful by default because I take the sim seriously. I also prefer the much more realistic version of training that comes with practicing in reality. In other words I already get better by flying DCS more. I don't need made up number telling me that I've run the game long enough to get a 5% bonus to a skill.

 

I don't see specific "set of skill" in there. Like "You can now launch missiles 5% faster" or "You have just spent skill point for advanced radar operations, allowing you to slew TDC 10% faster" (sorry, couldn't resist making exaggerated examples) but be more realistic about the pilot physical conditions. As well as in reality, you don't get to be the new guy in the squadron and do everything that the old guys are doing. So you need to go through the learning process and all. 

 

In a up coming dynamic campaign that is as well important, where as a new virtual pilot you are not to be sent to dangerous / high risk missions and you don't get the latest and craziest weapon loadouts for that reason. It is just optional possibility to make the virtual pilots as careers. 

 

Like example the online competition (air quake) behavior would change if you could lose all your progress by getting killed.

So the reasons to try to escape from situation, to avoid it, to not to be doing something so stupid in first place would become apparent.

Aborting mission would be acceptable thing. Landing on the carrier would be more stressful etc. 

 

(and of course all these as well requires the proper penalty systems where some n00b doesn't just want to kill you on the cat because decided to just crash on you for fun).

 

 

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Yes to improved G strain modeling and yes to something resembling stamina so you cannot pull high g maneuvers forever without your pilot eventually tiring.

 

No to... all this other weird crap people are suggesting. I can't believe people actually would suggest War Thunder's idiotic skill system here with a straight face (it works more or less exactly like is being suggested here).

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On 4/20/2021 at 3:00 PM, Mars Exulte said:

Yes to improved G strain modeling and yes to something resembling stamina so you cannot pull high g maneuvers forever without your pilot eventually tiring.

...

 

I'm all for this idea as well. Some sort of G tolerence bank that will deplete over time with heavy G's making it deplete faster and maybe a little randomness as well.

But it must be equal for all and not a skillset that is built up over time. It would probably just encourage hacking.

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As far as I'm aware the community's issue with the existing G-Tolerance is that it feels quite arbitrary, so the fix shouldn't be adding an arbitrary slider into the equation.

 

Only way I could see this happening is a human factors simulation, and that would be a pain imo as there are so many little things there that would add nothing to gameplay.

 

"Remember to drink lots of water leading up to your flight so your G-Tolerance isn't adversely impacted by dehydration".

 

 

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