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Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event


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When will the first fight start? At what Zulu time would that be? So people in Europe can decide if they are able to join? Any idea about how long a tournament day can become starting from the first fight?

 

 

 

1400z

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"It isn't that i was that much a better pilot, it is that i cheated better".

 

I'm sorry my friend, you are lacking so much pilot culture context that many of your conclusions are derived from misconstruing information.

 

Everything he discribed in this video was tantamount to pulling the paddle switch in the hornet. For which his cocky young marine adversary did not do, and the 18 lost for "not cheating better" . The nuance is that it had very little to do with the raw performance and/or limitations of the aircraft involved, and everything to do with that he simply out smarted the young 18 driver. He broke natops limits resulting the 18 driver to mis judge and fly his aircraft incorrectly. His entire point was that he could trick the cocky pilot into flying poorly. To conclude that over G-ing an aircraft, pulling circuit breakers, manually sweeping the wings and dumping to bingo fuel is the norm is ridiculous. CAPT Snodgrass made a HUGE gamble that he was hoping the 18 drivers ego would deliver on, and it did. Had he done that against someone who knew better, he would have got his ass handed to him, which he also knew. It was a calculated decision with a spacific goal, and that goal was not to prove the performance of the 14 vrs the 18, it was basically "despite the performance of the hardware, ya don't know everything, kid".

 

Since this thread is chock full of theory crafting, an alternate and much more "realistic" scenario could easly be: Had the 18 driver been patient and flew the aircraft correctly, he would have flowen the hornets superior alpha turning inside to deny his shots (abiding by all natops limits mind you) all while letting the 14 driver beat up his own aircraft untill it performed like a tin can only exacerbating the 18s nose authority advantage, or simply wait for him to try all his AB vertical maneuvers burning down his thimble size amount of gas he dumped down to (probably one chance at most given the numbers he sighted). Hell, had the smart ass marine been able to curb his attitude, he could have easly scored a deck kill without ever having to pull the trigger when the 14 simulated flamed out from lack of gas . Then the 14 driver gets to go home and look all his maintainers in the eyes explaining why he did what he did.

 

You are having a hard time deducing success from what can be attributed to the performance of the aircraft, what is between the pilots ears, and when someone is intentionally risking breaking "things" to teach a much needed lesson to better his aviation legacy.

He proved his point by "cheating better"and that ego clouds your judgment. Not that the 14 was better because of some gaming easter egg that few know, or that the 18 is worse, and certainly not that risking breaking the jet was a legitimate or expected practice. To come to the last conclusion is plainly nieve.

 

Captain Snodgrass is a renowned pilot, i think you are doing him a disservice by misrepresenting his experience. Your "argument from authority " is used incorrectly.

 

You sound much like the 18 driver Sondgrass taught the lesson to.

I have no delusions that anyone will be able to convince you what has already been explained, i would simply encourage you to research the "dunning kruger effect".

 

Good luck.

 

 

I think you didn't understand: the guy was not a kid, was a top gun instructor. He was bragging so he can beat a horn tomcat all day long. But he didn't, end of lesson. During war natops, if necessary, can remain on a chart.

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I think you didn't understand: the guy was not a kid, was a top gun instructor. He was bragging so he can beat a horn tomcat all day long. But he didn't, end of lesson. During war natops, if necessary, can remain on a chart.

 

Judging by this response, it’s evident you really don’t know how any of this works in the real world.

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I think you didn't understand: the guy was not a kid, was a top gun instructor. He was bragging so he can beat a horn tomcat all day long. But he didn't, end of lesson. During war natops, if necessary, can remain on a chart.

 

What Snodgrass did worked because the "Kids" judgement was clouded by ego. Not because of some super-special secret-squirrel f14 wild-card "During war" natops magic flying . In this instance it worked because the cocky over confident 18 pilot played right into Snodgrass "cheats" and flew over aggressive. This was the basic plot of his entire speech. A clear headed pilot would not have fallen for it. He was very much a "kid" such that his cocky-ness showed his hand for which Snodgrass could formulate a precise counter before the wheels were in the wells. Snodgrass started the fight with a "bluff", hell he had the gas for a single merge, for which if anyone would have called him on it (i.e. flown a proper jet and prolonged the fight) he would have probably lost.

All that to try and illustrate: He would not have done what he did had he not known the "kid"" would over aggressively fight his jet out of emotion. Your attempt to use this as a justification to break "things" is not happening here. What he did was not realistic war fighting, it was a poker game and the "kid" lost before he got in the aircraft. Hell in this instance , Snodgrass is a rockstar not because of his pilot ability, but for sizing his adversary up without even flying. That probably flew over everyone's heads. (pun intended) "End of lesson", you have no idea how you have missed everything about his lesson.

 

Of all the things talked about in my previous post, the justification of me calling the 18 driver a "kid" was your go to, and that because he won = your point justified ....

 

You did with my multiple points what you have been doing all along. You are cherry picking information and drawing incorrect conclusions from misinterpretations of various online sources because you lack much context. You are oversimplifying a complex concept and are very confident about it despite multiple individual's who do understand the context trying to point you in the right direction.

Dunning Kruger effect.

 

Sorry to monopolize the thread, i digress ....


Edited by Lex Talionis
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Judging by this response, it’s evident you really don’t know how any of this works in the real world.

 

 

That was the story, that is history. There is no judgment, it was a fact and it also was a fact that during mock dogfights between Navy and Airforce everybody push his plane over the limits, that was and that was for real during those years and so Snodgrass pulled Tomcat over 6,5g, over 7,5 and also over 9,5g, and it was for real, he used full flaps that somebody called "bug" in the name of realism but, in the name of realism, that was the real story. You could like it or no but, if you want realism, you must also want the Tomcat used just like in his history in real life.


Edited by maxsin72
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What Snodgrass did worked because the "Kids" judgement was clouded by ego. Not because of some super-special secret-squirrel f14 wild-card "During war" natops magic flying . In this instance it worked because the cocky over confident 18 pilot played right into Snodgrass "cheats" and flew over aggressive. This was the basic plot of his entire speech. A clear headed pilot would not have fallen for it. He was very much a "kid" such that his cocky-ness showed his hand for which Snodgrass could formulate a precise counter before the wheels were in the wells. Snodgrass started the fight with a "bluff", hell he had the gas for a single merge, for which if anyone would have called him on it (i.e. flown a proper jet and prolonged the fight) he would have probably lost.

All that to try and illustrate: He would not have done what he did had he not known the "kid"" would over aggressively fight his jet out of emotion. Your attempt to use this as a justification to break "things" is not happening here. What he did was not realistic war fighting, it was a poker game and the "kid" lost before he got in the aircraft. Hell in this instance , Snodgrass is a rockstar not because of his pilot ability, but for sizing his adversary up without even flying. That probably flew over everyone's heads. (pun intended) "End of lesson", you have no idea how you have missed everything about his lesson.

 

Of all the things talked about in my previous post, the justification of me calling the 18 driver a "kid" was your go to, and that because he won = your point justified ....

 

You did with my multiple points what you have been doing all along. You are cherry picking information and drawing incorrect conclusions from misinterpretations of various online sources because you lack much context. You are oversimplifying a complex concept and are very confident about it despite multiple individual's who do understand the context trying to point you in the right direction.

Dunning Kruger effect.

 

Sorry to monopolize the thread, i digress ....

 

 

I repeat that Snodgrass said the pilot of F18 was a top gun instructor.

That was the story and that was the real way the Tomcat was flown by Snodgrass. Now, in a simulated tournament, real life situations are banned, i can't call this "realism".

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that it happened once, it doesn't make it a good idea, nor does it make it the norm... actual real experts disagree all the time, you disagreeing with genuine experts makes you look like an ...

 

I really can't understand your position or passion for this "problem"... participate or not play, the game you want to play ... but don't be surprised the umpire calls your jet dead because you "mission killed" your jet...

 

But most importantly and please take this one to heart, play for the CAUSE, because it is worthy and enjoy it or DONATE or ... don't its really up to you.

 

But for goodness sake stop arguing the ROE because you won't change it...

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that it happened once, it doesn't make it a good idea, nor does it make it the norm... actual real experts disagree all the time, you disagreeing with genuine experts makes you look like an ...

 

I really can't understand your position or passion for this "problem"... participate or not play, the game you want to play ... but don't be surprised the umpire calls your jet dead because you "mission killed" your jet...

 

But most importantly and please take this one to heart, play for the CAUSE, because it is worthy and enjoy it or DONATE or ... don't its really up to you.

 

But for goodness sake stop arguing the ROE because you won't change it...

 

 

I think the cause is really good and donate is a really good thing.

I don't want to change the rules, this is not my tournament and i'm not the one who must say which are the rules. That said, if somobody tells that F14B natops chart tell the truth and that he is right because he his a real pilot of F16/F18, i want to hear what a real skilled pilot of F14 say about the argument.

And the real life skilled pilot of F14 said something completely different, in the 2019 video i posted he say:

Well, I, like I say, I’ve been pretty successful against eagles in my time. Um, but at to answer actually truthfully if you look at, if you look at a like an [inaudible] straight up at 14 a versus an f 15 clean, no, no, no big tanks in rails on and those kinds of things. The F 15 is a, has a, is a higher performing aeroplane, but it all comes down to an end game and all this stuff. It all comes down to the pilot and the f 14 you could, as I mentioned before, you can configure it certain ways and all of a sudden it turns into another animal. So when I fought really quality pilots in those kinds of aeroplanes and I configured my aeroplane in the prohibited configuration, I generally wound up, I could present an aeroplane that was superior to theirs in the slow speed environment.

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I repeat that Snodgrass said the pilot of F18 was a top gun instructor.

That was the story and that was the real way the Tomcat was flown by Snodgrass. Now, in a simulated tournament, real life situations are banned, i can't call this "realism".

 

I repeat.

 

1. Rules have been set! Like them or not they are set!.

 

2. Again going over maximum goes with a random risk, that is to great to make a factor for

proper training. You can go over maximum but it is not without a cost you can't predict other

than 99% of the time it might be bad. This by the way goes for many things in life :)

(I have seen many muscle injuries on the soccer field due to above maximum ability.)

 

3. You disagree, and you have made your point and I think I got it many times. No need to repeat

it again and again. It is entirely up to you to compete or not under this rule set. :)

 

Overall goal should not be missed, This is for charity and if it goes well it will be repeated.

 

Post your own tournament with your rule set, nothing stopping you :)

 

No matter what you decide, be a sport and go donate :)

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I think the cause is really good and donate is a really good thing.

I don't want to change the rules, this is not my tournament and i'm not the one who must say which are the rules. That said, if somobody tells that F14B natops chart tell the truth and that he is right because he his a real pilot of F16/F18, i want to hear what a real skilled pilot of F14 say about the argument.

And the real life skilled pilot of F14 said something completely different, in the 2019 video i posted he say:

Well, I, like I say, I’ve been pretty successful against eagles in my time. Um, but at to answer actually truthfully if you look at, if you look at a like an [inaudible] straight up at 14 a versus an f 15 clean, no, no, no big tanks in rails on and those kinds of things. The F 15 is a, has a, is a higher performing aeroplane, but it all comes down to an end game and all this stuff. It all comes down to the pilot and the f 14 you could, as I mentioned before, you can configure it certain ways and all of a sudden it turns into another animal. So when I fought really quality pilots in those kinds of aeroplanes and I configured my aeroplane in the prohibited configuration, I generally wound up, I could present an aeroplane that was superior to theirs in the slow speed environment.

 

so if it were me... I would take that AWAY from this thread which is about the tournament, and start a separate thread...it has absolutely nothing to do with the primary goal here

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I repeat.

 

1. Rules have been set! Like them or not they are set!.

 

2. Again going over maximum goes with a random risk, that is to great to make a factor for

proper training. You can go over maximum but it is not without a cost you can't predict other

than 99% of the time it might be bad. This by the way goes for many things in life :)

(I have seen many muscle injuries on the soccer field due to above maximum ability.)

 

3. You disagree, and you have made your point and I think I got it many times. No need to repeat

it again and again. It is entirely up to you to compete or not under this rule set. :)

 

Overall goal should not be missed, This is for charity and if it goes well it will be repeated.

 

Post your own tournament with your rule set, nothing stopping you :)

 

No matter what you decide, be a sport and go donate :)

 

 

I understood and i like the "sense" of the tournament. I was only answering to the ones who reply at my posts. :)

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- *G Limits for all aircraft are being imposed this year to remove or greatly reduce the opportunity people have to exploit. If a pilot is found to have gone over the G limit for their aircraft a round loss will be issued for that round for that pilot. G Limits for specific aircraft are as follows. If you do not see the aircraft you are flying assume that there is no G Limit.

 

F-15 9.5G

 

LOL! Cue the sad violin music for all the F-15 gunfighters who routinely (and repeatedly) pull 12+ G on the dogfight servers.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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LOL! Cue the sad violin music for all the F-15 gunfighters who routinely (and repeatedly) pull 12+ G on the dogfight servers.

 

Yeah so my assumption was probably right: dogfight servers have gameified the sim. Again not that they can’t beat me even with g limits, but I just had the feeling that multiplayer was not the end all be all. In essence this isn’t much different than fighting games. Anything within the coding that can be exploited will be exploited for victory, unless tournaments regularly impose rule sets.

 

I’m practicing and hoping for one victory lol.

 

 

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Yeah so my assumption was probably right: dogfight servers have gameified the sim. Again not that they can’t beat me even with g limits, but I just had the feeling that multiplayer was not the end all be all. In essence this isn’t much different than fighting games. Anything within the coding that can be exploited will be exploited for victory, unless tournaments regularly impose rule sets.

 

I’m practicing and hoping for one victory lol.

 

It's the not servers' fault. Airquake can be fun and allows the opportunity for rapid practice/improvement.

 

It's the difference between DCS modules and FC3. The F-14 can pull 12G too, and rip the wings right off!:joystick: FC3 planes are relaxed realism in more ways than just avionics.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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Captain Snodgrass is a renowned pilot, i think you are doing him a disservice by misrepresenting his experience. Your "argument from authority " is used incorrectly.

 

 

I hate drifting off-topic^h^h^h^h^hpissing contest like this, but didn't Snodgrass beat Satrapa in a guns-only duel 2 out of three for one or the other of Satrapa's retirements? I seem to remember Mouse talking about that when I met him years ago (and he signed my book).

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I've never used Discord (and not hugely interested in learning), but flying an I-16 in this match might make it worth while...

 

 

We have to land, do we have to re-use the aircraft? Operating the I-16 landing gear is not one of my stronger skills.

 

 

 

No, lol. Any landing where the aircraft doesn’t blow up and you die is a good landing as long as it’s on the designated airfield.

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I hate drifting off-topic^h^h^h^h^hpissing contest like this, but didn't Snodgrass beat Satrapa in a guns-only duel 2 out of three for one or the other of Satrapa's retirements? I seem to remember Mouse talking about that when I met him years ago (and he signed my book).

 

The gamer was refering to the YouTube video in context as a seeming means to justifying all fights being the like. More to the point, that an emotionally invested IP being out smarted, some how enforces the premise that over G ing/speeding, dumping to bingo, and a other anecdotes is some how taken as the norm implementation of the airframe. Willingly ignoring all context of the very story told, let alone the profession. That was the point and the context i (and others) was trying to explain, in adnasium.

 

I dont know what context you are refering to... ? I dont follow the point.

 

(Great you were able to meet him and get a signature. Hold on to that and dont be tempted to let it go on ebay. :) and when ya get on discord, come say hi and share a picture of the book)


Edited by Lex Talionis

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No, lol. Any landing where the aircraft doesn’t blow up and you die is a good landing as long as it’s on the designated airfield.

 

This is an outstanding implementation for the tournament.

 

The necessity of worrying about getting back on deck forces the gamer to evaluate what they are doing with their airframe while bending it arround in ACM. If the community is thirsty for realisum, this is an absolute must.

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This is an outstanding implementation for the tournament.

 

 

 

The necessity of worrying about getting back on deck forces the gamer to evaluate what they are doing with their airframe while bending it arround in ACM. If the community is thirsty for realisum, this is an absolute must.

 

 

 

I think so. It’s something we also enforce in SATAL, the BVR league. I believe it forces greater tactical decision making and forces pilots to evaluate decisions with more awareness due to fuel management requirements and aircraft fatigue. The last thing we want is for someone to win a fight in these competitions and then run out of fuel while calling themselves a winner. That just feels cheap and half hearted and doesn’t showcase the full scope. You’re only a winner in my book if you come back.

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I dont know what context you are refering to... ? I dont follow the point.

 

(Great you were able to meet him and get a signature. Hold on to that and dont be tempted to let it go on ebay. :) and when ya get on discord, come say hi and share a picture of the book)

 

 

There wasn't a point, other than two exceptional pilots, whose reputations managed to get noticed outside aviation, going head to head.

 

 

Well...Hoser was a little bigger than life, and Snodgrass spanked him at his own game... That's not meant to imply Satrapa wasn't very good, just that he wasn't the only very good driver in the hanger.

 

 

As for Mouse...I keep that book at my desk. It's not the only signed first edition I own, but he was pretty amazing. Always had a good answer for all my questions and never looked down on someone who was never a part of that community.

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UPDATE:

 

We've added the ability to sign up through PayPal for those that do not have credit cards. Please ensure you follow the instructions carefully:

 

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