Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event

[Mover]

@Mover

 

 

Excuse me Sir but you have reached 10+ g on the Tomcat. Who knows what maintenance thought? Didn't you keep an eye on the G indicator?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that jet suffered a rapid unscheduled disassembly. Maintenance was obviously not pleased.

 

Nice troll attempt, though.

[maxsin72]

I'm pretty sure that jet suffered a rapid unscheduled disassembly. Maintenance was obviously not pleased.

 

Nice troll attempt, though.

 

 

It was an attempt to focus of the fact that on a simulated tomcat, without G-indicator on the HUD, without a stick that become heavier increasing turn rate and G and without a body who feels G like in real life, also a real pilot can very easy loose this parameter.

 

 

One question, please: is the g-limit an instant limit or is it for sustained turn?

[Mover]

It was an attempt to focus of the fact that on a simulated tomcat, without G-indicator on the HUD, without a stick that become heavier increasing turn rate and G and without a body who feels G like in real life, also a real pilot can very easy loose this parameter.

 

It's a fruitless argument. Using a video in which I (having never flown a Tomcat) treated the game as a game proves nothing. It certainly doesn't make a point that it's realistic to ignore G-limits.

 

It's time to let it go.

 

One question, please: is the g-limit an instant limit or is it for sustained turn?

Either. If you exceed the stated limits at any time, it's an over-G.

[maxsin72]

It's a fruitless argument. Using a video in which I (having never flown a Tomcat) treated the game as a game proves nothing. It certainly doesn't make a point that it's realistic to ignore G-limits.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but i think you miss the point. I think that on a real Tomcat you would have noticed all that acceleration of gravity without the need to look at the indicator and you would never have reached such high G values. On a real plane it is much easier to control the g, and consider also that on a real Tomcat you have a much better view of the cockpit and of the g indicator, expecially if you use VR and you have a very limited field of view. Lost view is lost fight. To balance the difference with reality it would be necessary at least to be able to see the g on the HUD.

 

 

 

 

It's time to let it go.

 

 

 

 

I repeat i don't want to change the rule, i'm just interested in thinking thoroughly about the subject.

 

 

Either. If you exceed the stated limits at any time, it's an over-G.

 

 

Thanks for the answer.

[Mover]

I'm sorry but i think you miss the point. I think that on a real Tomcat you would have noticed all that acceleration of gravity without the need to look at the indicator and you would never have reached such high G values. On a real plane it is much easier to control the g, and consider also that on a real Tomcat you have a much better view of the cockpit and of the g indicator, expecially if you use VR and you have a very limited field of view. Lost view is lost fight. To balance the difference with reality it would be necessary at least to be able to see the g on the HUD.

 

I don't disagree with that. Lack of feel is a huge problem with gaming in general. This is why sim pilots typically do better than real pilots.

 

On the video in question, it was my first time in the Tomcat. I did not (As with most DCS videos I make) intend to simulate anything. I fly them for fun. I crash a lot. If I flew anything in real life as I do in the game, I wouldn't be here today.

 

To your point about having to look inside - I fly a real jet right now with no HUD. I'm constantly having to crosscheck inside the cockpit for altitude, airspeed, and G forces during a fight. That argument is invalid.

 

I repeat i don't want to change the rule, i'm just interested in thinking thoroughly about the subject.

No, you're trying to convince everyone why you're right and we're wrong. It's a dead horse.

 

 

Thanks for the answer.

 

You bet. Will you be participating in the tournament?

[S. Low]

It’s like a train wreck that I can’t look away from.

[maxsin72]

I don't disagree with that. Lack of feel is a huge problem with gaming in general. This is why sim pilots typically do better than real pilots.

 

On the video in question, it was my first time in the Tomcat. I did not (As with most DCS videos I make) intend to simulate anything. I fly them for fun. I crash a lot. If I flew anything in real life as I do in the game, I wouldn't be here today.

 

 

I understood it was your first time in the simulated Tomcat, i took this example to remark the huge difficulties to percept g force inside the simulated Tomcat, especially during an hard dogfight. With others simulated jet, who have the g-limiter and g-indicator, there are much less difficulties to respect imposed limits.

 

 

 

To your point about having to look inside - I fly a real jet right now with no HUD. I'm constantly having to crosscheck inside the cockpit for altitude, airspeed, and G forces during a fight. That argument is invalid.

 

 

I just told that with a real jet is more easy to keep under control g force so i believe you. The problem is with simulated jet.

 

 

 

No, you're trying to convince everyone why you're right and we're wrong. It's a dead horse.

 

Yes, that's true, i seemed to have always been clear about this but i also think i wrote my arguments, right or wrong they are, but i also would like to learn more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You bet. Will you be participating in the tournament?

 

 

This weekend i'm away with my family but i would have liked to have participated, even though i think i would have been eliminated very soon

[Thunder_]

Hey Guys , Anyone else waiting for the Email for the Tournament form Givergy ? to register your aircraft and check your slot time ?

[Phil C6]

Hi, where could we get the mission?

 

 

Best regards

[speed-of-heat]

should have been emailed to you!

[S. Low]

I understood it was your first time in the simulated Tomcat, i took this example to remark the huge difficulties to percept g force inside the simulated Tomcat, especially during an hard dogfight. With others simulated jet, who have the g-limiter and g-indicator, there are much less difficulties to respect imposed limits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just told that with a real jet is more easy to keep under control g force so i believe you. The problem is with simulated jet.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's true, i seemed to have always been clear about this but i also think i wrote my arguments, right or wrong they are, but i also would like to learn more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This weekend i'm away with my family but i would have liked to have participated, even though i think i would have been eliminated very soon

 

Yet another guy criticizing the rules who isn't even showing up. Why are you spending this much energy on a pointless argument?

 

"I just told that with a real jet is more easy to keep under control g force so i believe you. The problem is with simulated jet."

 

And the real fighter pilot who flies an aggressor T-38 (I think) is actually telling you that in an actual real life dogfight he cannot truly identify g forces past 5 gs reliably. He has to look into the cockpit to doublecheck his accelerometer so he doesn't over g the jet while fighting. He's doing this in real life, under physical g strain, with a big helmet on.

 

I think we can move our heads a fraction using head trackers to see inside the cockpit.

[Raisuli]

 

And the real fighter pilot who flies an aggressor T-38 (I think) is actually telling you that in an actual real life dogfight he cannot truly identify g forces past 5 gs reliably. He has to look into the cockpit to doublecheck his accelerometer so he doesn't over g the jet while fighting. He's doing this in real life, under physical g strain, with a big helmet on.

 

 

Apart from the DSW going on this has been interesting in some ways. I grew up as a sim pilot (with 20/400 vision they don't say no, they fall on the floor laughing) and I've always wondered how much seat of the pants feeling makes a difference. As I suspected, a lot. I had no idea it wasn't a panacea.

 

 

It would be nicer if these little tidbits could be learned without the rest of it.

 

 

 

But, as I explained to GB, sim pilots are far superior. Just today at 15 miles from a head-on merge with a bad guy I got one last drink of tea before putting my mug back in the cup holder. It never spills a drop, even at 7G.

 

 

:thumbup: :pilotfly: :joystick:

[Carlos]

Well no one on here is going to tell me that if the real life pilot has a

guy in his sights. He is going to not pull that 1 extra g to get the kill. Hey real life pilot why didn't you shoot that guy. Well I couldn't you know g limits and all. Lol, **** outa here. That pilot is going to pull that bitch and shoot.

[speed-of-heat]

I just wanted to say to Moltar and his team of helpful assistants thanks for doing such sterling work on this event, nothing operates without a hitch, but you guys did really well herding cats. I had a great time, and looking forward to round 2 later today!

[Mover]

Well no one on here is going to tell me that if the real life pilot has a

guy in his sights. He is going to not pull that 1 extra g to get the kill. Hey real life pilot why didn't you shoot that guy. Well I couldn't you know g limits and all. Lol, **** outa here. That pilot is going to pull that bitch and shoot.

 

Thanks for the tip based on your training and experience.

 

HOWEVER, in the 15 years I've been flying fighters, I have never been in or seen a scenario where I was at or near the g-limits of the aircraft and needed "1 extra G" for a guns track.

 

No one is taking valid gun shots at 9Gs. You guys really need to get a better understanding of the physics involved here if you're going to tell people who do this for a living that they're wrong.

 

Technique only.

[G B]

Well no one on here is going to tell me that if the real life pilot has a

guy in his sights. He is going to not pull that 1 extra g to get the kill. Hey real life pilot why didn't you shoot that guy. Well I couldn't you know g limits and all. Lol, **** outa here. That pilot is going to pull that bitch and shoot.

 

Wrong. 1000% wrong. That is not how the airplane is flown, that is not a valid tactic, that is not trained to, that is not in any manual.

 

*Pulling the paddle switch and over Ging the plane will break the plane.* Why is this missed on everybody? The. Hornet. Limit. Is. 7.5G. Period. It was built for that, and no more.

 

Nobody uses the paddle to gain a positional advantage or for weapons employment. Nobody uses it to improve turn performance. I’ll tell you that even if bullets were whizzing past my head, I don’t know if I’d think to use it, simply because it isn’t taught nor is it trained to. By the way, if bullets are whizzing past my head, I’m probably in the regime of flight where I’m too slow for the paddle switch to help me, so it’s a moot point.

[Carlos]

Thanks for the tip based on your training and experience.

 

HOWEVER, in the 15 years I've been flying fighters, I have never been in or seen a scenario where I was at or near the g-limits of the aircraft and needed "1 extra G" for a guns track.

 

No one is taking valid gun shots at 9Gs. You guys really need to get a better understanding of the physics involved here if you're going to tell people who do this for a living that they're wrong.

 

Technique only.

 

Thanks for the info but it's good to know that 1 g is there if you need it.

[Mover]

Thanks for the info but it's good to know that 1 g is there if you need it.

 

In the video game, absolutely. :thumbup:

[G B]

Thanks for the info but it's good to know that 1 g is there if you need it.

 

The override can give you more than 1 extra G. And it’s still not used IRL.

[Carlos]

In the video game, absolutely. :thumbup:

 

Haha, yep. Guys do get that confused.

[Carlos]

The override can give you more than 1 extra G. And it’s still not used IRL.

 

Sorry I don't play the 18. I play the 15.

[snipy]

Hey guys, discord invite link expired. For those flying Day 2... um, how do we get in?

 

 

Edit, nevermind: email link expired, the one on front post works.

Edited September 27, 2020 by snipy

[Mover]

Haha, yep. Guys do get that confused.

 

Well, you did say "real life pilot."

[Carlos]

Well, you did say "real life pilot."

 

Yeah I did. And in real life a pilot would. But like you said and I agree. It's just a game.

[Mover]

Yeah I did. And in real life a pilot would. But like you said and I agree. It's just a game.

 

Sorry, but that's incorrect.