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Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event


M0ltar

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There was confusion (who would of thought through text). I know you don't over g a jet. I know there are lower g limits with load outs, like fuel tanks fuel quantity, bombs etc. But I knew of an example where a guy over g'd to get onto a migs 6. But the guy answered me with no pilot would do that. It's was kinda like, hey that guy got into a car wreck. And someone answers, nobody gets into car wrecks. And the correct response should of been, nobody gets into car wrecks on purpose. Hopefully this clears it up. And I don't get an encyclopedia of response on how I'm wrong.

 

 

I think saying something like "This guy over G'd the jet to get a kill, but it wasn't a good idea, even though it worked." would go a long way. Because the disconnect seems to be not the existence of the action, but the existence of the action... and its validity as a common tactic.

 

 

If we're just discussing things that have happened, I, and you, could argue that kamikaze should be a valid method. Right? We can prove its existence. (Which you've done.) We can prove its semi effectiveness. (Which you've done.) But its hard to argue its validity as a common tactic.

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I think saying something like "This guy over G'd the jet to get a kill, but it wasn't a good idea, even though it worked." would go a long way. Because the disconnect seems to be not the existence of the action, but the existence of the action... and its validity as a common tactic.

 

 

If we're just discussing things that have happened, I, and you, could argue that kamikaze should be a valid method. Right? We can prove its existence. (Which you've done.) We can prove its semi effectiveness. (Which you've done.) But its hard to argue its validity as a common tactic.

 

 

Excellent point. I got target fixated on, 'no pilot would do that'.

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I do not know about the 14 and I'm only talking about in the DCS game. But in the 15 the audible sounds for over g are when you're in fact already over g'ing. There are no audible sounds to alert you before you over g as far as I know. And you obviously are not feeling the physiological effects to know when to stop pulling on the stick.

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These are again, one offs, not repeat use, and one example of Schrödinger's cat--if he didn't check the G meter, then he didn't over G...

 

But the logical argument is that if it was not trained, it was not meant to be employed. Snodgrass going up against another fighter is war games, and he gamed the game.

 

What seems to be forgotten is that these jets are weapons, meant to be used in combat, to gain or maintain aerial superiority, to support or allow boots on the ground to gain and maintain strategic objectives.

 

If everyone pulls G and breaks their jet, because they want a kill, we're going to lose air superiority pretty quick, and the ground guys are going to get hammered.

 

There is a common adage, you fight how you train. They aren't trained because that isn't how it is meant to be fought.

 

 

I think nowadays it's how you write. However, keep in mind that we are talking about events from 45 years ago and perhaps things were different then from today. There are several testimonies of old F14 pilots who speak of an out-of-the-way use on the internet and, perhaps, others that have not ended up on the internet have. So maybe, at the time, it wasn't so uncommon for F14 pilots to do forbidden things. After all, Grumman seems to have over-engineered the F14 making it much more robust than the minimum specifications required

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I know both of you guys who are arguing against Mover are from the justdogfight server. You are great fighters, almost impossible to beat. Thats great. But its a game.

And Mover is the greatest addition we can have to the community to add realism, dont p*** him off. So just lets have fun on the server, and let the fights on the tournament go as they go.

I don't want to expose you Maxin, I really don't but I have to for the sake of the discussion. Your opinon and contribution for realism seems to be a really off.

I shot you down twice in an F16. Which can be easiy done with an HMCS. It is no real victory to me at all. Then I was out of everything, went home. . But then you chose to chase me, eat SAMs and crash into the runway in front of me me? Realistic flying or realistic tactics? I think not. Let Mover and the other people here, who try to take it serious, please do their thing.Please don't bully them and waste their time with you opinion.

Remember that replay?:

 

https://youtu.be/u9XJIfxN_Tg

 

 

Thats was the orignal text I was going to post before I realized the the thread went crazy again.

*****

Hey Mover.

Sorry to alter that thread again into a g-limitation discussion thread, but I am on your side.

 

I have been a military aircraft simulator fan since I can remember.

 

I started with strike commander in 1991, when I was 10, various Jane's sims, then finally transitioned to Falcon 4.0 and its later mods.

Most of the time I was playing it in the F16, because basically every sim had it simulated back then. So I was kind of familiarized already in it in every sim.

 

When I found out DCS is going to have an F18 and an F16 later I immediately switched to DCS, when the F18 was out.

So I already had a basic feeling in mind how dogfights should turn out against different aircraft.

 

Playing on multiplayer servers I was struggling in an F18 against an F14. And in an F16 against an F18. So I was thinking something must be really off in DCS.

I was watching out of the window seeing the F14 turn behind be like an RC plane. But thanks to you, pointing g limits out, it is perfectly clear to me whats happening.

 

In all the other previous sims I played, the F14 and the F18 were AI controlled. So the AI just did what the programmers told it to do. Respect the g limit, because you fly this particular aircraft. But every sim only gets as realistic as the people playing it in a realistic way, if the aircraft is controlled by a human. Humans will use the paddle switch in the F18 and pull 12 G in the F14 until they get restricted. The AI wont do that. As you brought attention to this topic to me I finally understand whats going on in DCS because the F16 must be one of the most realistic performing aircraft in DCS due to its very restrictive FLCS.

 

Maybe it might help to share my opinion as an old-school flight sim fan about g limits on your youtube channel too before the tournament is going to be streamed. I really am excited which aircraft will perform best this year, and I appreciate you and M0ltar doing your best to keep it as real as possible.

 

Fights on, and greetings from Germany.


Edited by darkman222
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Hey I'm callsign Charlie. And the DOD pays me to know more than you. Thanks for what you guys do. And I put in a donation.

 

 

OK, now *that* was a good comeback! LOL. :D:D

 

But 2 point deduction for the misquote. "The Pentagon sees to it that I know more than you."


Edited by hansangb

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I know both of you guys who are arguing against Mover are from the justdogfight server. You are great fighters, almost impossible to beat. Thats great. But its a game.

And Mover is the greatest addition we can have to the community to add realism, dont p*** him off. So just lets have fun on the server, and let the fights on the tournament go as they go.

I don't want to expose you Maxin, I really don't but I have to for the sake of the discussion. Your opinon and contribution for realism seems to be a really off.

I shot you down twice in an F16. Which can be easiy done with an HMCS. It is no real victory to me at all. Then I was out of everything, went home. . But then you chose to chase me, eat SAMs and crash into the runway in front of me me? Realistic flying or realistic tactics? I think not. Let Mover and the other people here, who try to take it serious, please do their thing.Please don't bully them and waste their time with you opinion.

Remember that replay?:

 

https://youtu.be/u9XJIfxN_Tg

 

 

Thats was the orignal text I was going to post before I realized the the thread went crazy again.

*****

Hey Mover.

Sorry to alter that thread again into a g-limitation discussion thread, but I am on your side.

 

I have been a military aircraft simulator fan since I can remember.

 

I started with strike commander in 1991, when I was 10, various Jane's sims, then finally transitioned to Falcon 4.0 and its later mods.

Most of the time I was playing it in the F16, because basically every sim had it simulated back then. So I was kind of familiarized already in it in every sim.

 

When I found out DCS is going to have an F18 and an F16 later I immediately switched to DCS, when the F18 was out.

So I already had a basic feeling in mind how dogfights should turn out against different aircraft.

 

Playing on multiplayer servers I was struggling in an F18 against an F14. And in an F16 against an F18. So I was thinking something must be really off in DCS.

I was watching out of the window seeing the F14 turn behind be like an RC plane. But thanks to you, pointing g limits out, it is perfectly clear to me whats happening.

 

In all the other previous sims I played, the F14 and the F18 were AI controlled. So the AI just did what the programmers told it to do. Respect the g limit, because you fly this particular aircraft. But every sim only gets as realistic as the people playing it in a realistic way, if the aircraft is controlled by a human. Humans will use the paddle switch in the F18 and pull 12 G in the F14 until they get restricted. The AI wont do that. As you brought attention to this topic to me I finally understand whats going on in DCS because the F16 must be one of the most realistic performing aircraft in DCS due to its very restrictive FLCS.

 

Maybe it might help to share my opinion as an old-school flight sim fan about g limits on your youtube channel too before the tournament is going to be streamed. I really am excited which aircraft will perform best this year, and I appreciate you and M0ltar doing your best to keep it as real as possible.

 

Fights on, and greetings from Germany.

 

 

Hi Darkman i'ìm sorry but we are free people of free countries and we can have different opinion. I never bullied anybody but i was bullied because they told me i'm only a "fanboy", "troll or is like a kid without a clue.... or an adult with some broken mental faculties...." and so on but i never answered to this provocation. But, from what i'have seen, seems normal i can be insulted without any conseguence. May be i'm wrong, may be not, i have documented my opinion and what happened in justdogfight server it's not pertinent in this discussion and i never talked about justdogfight. Consider also that F14 breaks its wings past 10 Gs in DCS and that in real life a real pilot told that for his mistake he pulled 12.5g with his F14 without any damage. See you :)


Edited by maxsin72
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I think nowadays it's how you write. However, keep in mind that we are talking about events from 45 years ago and perhaps things were different then from today. There are several testimonies of old F14 pilots who speak of an out-of-the-way use on the internet and, perhaps, others that have not ended up on the internet have. So maybe, at the time, it wasn't so uncommon for F14 pilots to do forbidden things. After all, Grumman seems to have over-engineered the F14 making it much more robust than the minimum specifications required

 

And I think that is why the F-14 was increased, for this competition, because tactics existed back from when it was a 7.5 jet, and it might have become common to over-G it just because of the change to 6.5.

 

Folks that flew that thing forever at 7.5 probably would have balked at the idea of going to 6.5, and so... it became a thing.

 

Logically, we can look at this and say, the F-14 drivers seem to behave differently, what's different? Well, that is one concrete difference. And maybe it is sufficient to explain the anomaly.

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It's disappointing to have witnessed the personal attacks on maxsin who has only in this thread attempted to add to the discussion with some concrete testimonial evidence. I'd implore you all to refrain from that behavior in this community. Please differentiate between attacking an idea and attacking a person.

 

That being said, everybody needs to remember that DCS is a SIM. They have not modeled everything precisely to real life and cannot do so due to a number of factors including lack of G-feel.

 

There are also other major modeling issues such as the F-18 able to pull 8.1-8.5G __WITH NO PADDLE__ using a constant stick position (not yanking stick back). I've done numerous hours of testing on this in DCS and my prediction is that there will be no competitive F-18's in the final rounds of the tournament. They would have either over G'd and DQ'd out or been shot down and knocked out due to lack of turn performance trying to follow a 7.5G theoretical limit.

 

Maybe that's what's supposed to happen and F-18 is just a dog vs the other fighters, but it's definitely a severe disadvantage for F-18 pilots. I'm not arguing that F-18 pilots should be able to use paddle, but even the current NATOPS mentions 8.0G as normal operation and NOT considered an over G meaning the limit should be 8.5G for this tournament with the 0.5G buffer. It'd be better to just fly a Mirage and not even think about G-limits.

 

As it stands, the way the F-18 is modeled in DCS, it tends to spike G's at a constant stick position when slowing down below 400 Knots. The only way that I've found to reliably prevent this is to reduce the max stick throw in the DCS Axis tuning, but doing so also limits your 1-circle turn performance.

 

I understand the desire for G-limit rule, but following NATOPS G limits assumes that DCS is modeled perfectly to real life and unfortunately DCS just doesn't have all the numbers spot on and the fly by wire system respecting the 7.5G limit yet in the Hornet.

 

Is realism of the numbers more important or realism of tactics and feel? Is it more important that we follow a specific G-limit to the number, or that we fly the planes as they would in real life? Is the G indicator a normal thing to include in your instrument scan in the F-18 or F-14 during BFM? or just in a T-38 where the limit is much lower and you need to keep an eye on that? How fast are we expected to scan in order to even catch a G-spike? I can tell you that even while ONLY looking at the G-meter, I could not react to ease up in time to prevent the G-spike in a hard turn.

 

Anyway, my point is that real life experience of how these jets are supposed to behave is one thing and fully appreciate that input from guys like Mover and Gonky, but DCS isn't modeled perfectly and I'd rather go for realistic behavior of flying the jets than getting fixated on the numbers.

 

And hopefully one day DCS is modeled even better and we get to real life performance and characteristics, but that's just a sim'ers dream.

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For inconvenient guys...the thing that military pilots do most in their careers is to follow orders. If it is stipulated that the g limits are not to be exceeded, they will not exceed ... and will not contest. If you don't know to obey orders, you are not a military pilot, not even a military man. At no time was it asked whether or not you agreed with the g limit. The only option given to you is whether or not to register for the tournament. Do you want realism? This is realism. End. On the other line. Paragraph. Turn the disc. Move on.


Edited by Nazgûl

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There are also other major modeling issues such as the F-18 able to pull 8.1-8.5G __WITH NO PADDLE__ using a constant stick position (not yanking stick back). I've done numerous hours of testing on this in DCS and my prediction is that there will be no competitive F-18's in the final rounds of the tournament. They would have either over G'd and DQ'd out or been shot down and knocked out due to lack of turn performance trying to follow a 7.5G theoretical limit.

 

I've tried it in DCS. Just like in the real jet, you have to really be doing poor BFM to be anywhere above 7 Gs most of the time. It's just not a high G fighter. It doesn't need to be.

 

Maybe that's what's supposed to happen and F-18 is just a dog vs the other fighters, but it's definitely a severe disadvantage for F-18 pilots. I'm not arguing that F-18 pilots should be able to use paddle, but even the current NATOPS mentions 8.0G as normal operation and NOT considered an over G meaning the limit should be 8.5G for this tournament with the 0.5G buffer. It'd be better to just fly a Mirage and not even think about G-limits.

 

7.5 to 8.0G over-G depends on whether there was an associated 811 MSP. DCS does not model this. The NATOPS limit is 7.5

 

 

 

Is realism of the numbers more important or realism of tactics and feel? Is it more important that we follow a specific G-limit to the number, or that we fly the planes as they would in real life? Is the G indicator a normal thing to include in your instrument scan in the F-18 or F-14 during BFM? or just in a T-38 where the limit is much lower and you need to keep an eye on that? How fast are we expected to scan in order to even catch a G-spike? I can tell you that even while ONLY looking at the G-meter, I could not react to ease up in time to prevent the G-spike in a hard turn.

 

Fly better. Yes, I eyeball the G-meter. It's in the HUD in the Hornet, so it's not that difficult. The T-38A has no HUD, so you have to look inside the cockpit. It's something you do in any jet with G-limits.

 

It sounds like you guys are going too fast and not being very smooth on the controls.

 

 

Anyway, my point is that real life experience of how these jets are supposed to behave is one thing and fully appreciate that input from guys like Mover and Gonky, but DCS isn't modeled perfectly and I'd rather go for realistic behavior of flying the jets than getting fixated on the numbers.

 

This IS realism. Even if you win in real life (reference the 12 G F-15 story), it's still considered an F-Kill (Firepower Kill) for you, since your jet is unusable after and must be inspected/repaired.

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First of all i will say that everybody needs to be happy with tournament.

We need rules for everybody.

Peeps that don't like it will not play it period.

 

 

Now time to discuss a bit as everybody is giving opionions.

 

 

i think Mover, you can't compare real life G's with DCS G's.

Flying G's in DCS is much more harder than real life IMO.

 

 

Real life > eyeball bandits FLy G with butt.

DCS life > Eyeball bandits Eyeball Gmeter + no feeling it's just Frustrating to me...

 

 

About respecting G's.

 

Paddling is usually for emergency only, is merging for a 1v1 is an emergency?

 

i would say that this is a peacetime handcuff to preserve jet airframe, for sure putting G's on airplane will get it old faster.

Some airplane have, during they life even severals G limit.

 

For exemple 8G then 10 years later 7.5 then 6...to preserve the potential.

 

For me DCS dogfight is an extreme wartime scenario, something that it is not even comparable to nowdays realife.

When was the last time we saw a hard 1v1 dogfight with keeping you life as ultimate goal?

i'm not talking about "combat sortie" where jets shoot amraam to a goddamn unaware bandit flying in straight line or even CAS mission. i'm talking about real oldSchool BFM vs a guy who knows how to fly?

 

except in training, it was long time ago, back in the days where no flight data recorder were set, where it was easy to push on "G-meter Reset" and pay a case of beer to the mechanics

 

I had a chance to talk a lot with old school pilots, and the "G-reset" stuff was a common thing yet not so so long ago.

 

Again not talking about random combat ops but talking about merging with real bad bandidos with real good performances and this guy want to KILL you, trust me i will and i think the vast majority of peeps will pull everything they got...even if they need to bend the aircraft. Rather unloose some wingroot bolt than getting killed.

 

It would be very interesting to talk with vietnam pilots, where the stuff was real, merging at 600Kts+ at the last moment and playing for your life.

 

 

And IMO i'm pretty sure about that....but again it's my opinion, and as the pilot community is representing the population, even amongst the pilots of a same squadron we might have some disagrement between them.

 

The thing is, we are trying to put realism to a thing that is not very clear.

We are taking the real peacetime rules and sticking them to an extrem wartime scenario.

And even if you are a real fighter pilot you can't compare to the Job because this is a very specific scenario.

And if you want real realisme then all players should go through a medical class1.

 

 

Again just my two cents about it not saying i'm right, just giving you some other point of view.

 

 

Best Regards for All, see you at the merge!


Edited by plaiskool
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First of all i will say that everybody needs to be happy with tournament.

We need rules for everybody.

Peeps that don't like it will not play it period.

 

 

Now time to discuss a bit as everybody is giving opionions.

 

 

i think Mover, you can't compare real life G's with DCS G's.

Flying G's in DCS is much more harder than real life IMO.

 

 

Real life > eyeball bandits FLy G with butt.

DCS life > Eyeball bandits Eyeball Gmeter + no feeling it's just Frustrating to me...

 

:lol: Real life > you hurt yourself and GLOC.

 

DCS Life, anyone can (and does, ad nauseum) argue about silly things like this as an "expert."

 

As I said above, breaking the jet is still an F-Kill.

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  • ED Team
:lol: Real life > you hurt yourself and GLOC.

 

DCS Life, anyone can (and does, ad nauseum) argue about silly things like this as an "expert."

 

As I said above, breaking the jet is still an F-Kill.

 

In his defence, I believe he is suggesting it is harder to FEEL the G's in DCS. The biggest weakness of DCS or any game/sim is there is no feeling of G's or other movements.

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In his defence, I believe he is suggesting it is harder to FEEL the G's in DCS. The biggest weakness of DCS or any game/sim is there is no feeling of G's or other movements.

 

I agree. But to be honest, it's hard to tell the difference between 7 and 8.. or 8 and 9.

 

Ops limits are ops limits. There's a lot of whining going on here and quibbling. Everyone that has done or is doing this job for a living has said that we adhere to G-limits in real life. There really is no further discussion.

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I agree. But to be honest, it's hard to tell the difference between 7 and 8.. or 8 and 9.

 

Ops limits are ops limits. There's a lot of whining going on here and quibbling. Everyone that has done or is doing this job for a living has said that we adhere to G-limits in real life. There really is no further discussion.

 

Simple thing is that this is a game, not real life. Nobody is contesting your legitimacy as a real world former fighter pilot but what you are ultimately trying to do here is using a ruleset that was designed for real jets and real air combat in a video game.

 

This is a simulator, one of the finest but at the end of the day, it is still a video game in nature.

I am not saying it's easier or harder to learn than the real thing, I am saying that competing in DCS and in real life are 2 different animals, with each presenting its own challenges.

 

No disrespect, Mover, but although you are a veteran in a real jet, you are still a beginner in DCS.

Try to take into consideration what people have to say here, most have been playing for ages and know this game inside out.

 

I for one, always appreciate when real world pilots join us in here but we should learn from each other and move forward together.

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The situation is that people want to fly in a simulator that is as real as possible. Buy the most expensive computers, the most top equipment. However, in order to have a real simulation, we need to act realistically. What people are failing to understand is that there is no way to make a tournament realistically if they don't want to fly by obeying rules that are obeyed in real life. Half of the simulation is done by the simulator. The other half is made by those who fly it. It is not enough to have the most real simulator in the world if you do not act in a real way; performs the procedures as in real life; if you take off from the taxiway ... if you don't obey the g-limits. If you don't want the restriction of G, then you don't need to make the tournament as real as possible. Create another tournament without restrictions and be happy, but if you want a tournament in conditions similar to a tournament in real life, you will have to follow some restrictions. In a real-life tournament, if you did not obey the g-limit, you would win the first game, but you would not have your fighter to continue in the competition because they would be stopped for inspection... and would suffer some warning hehehe.


Edited by Nazgûl

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About respecting G's.

 

Paddling is usually for emergency only, is merging for a 1v1 is an emergency?

 

i would say that this is a peacetime handcuff to preserve jet airframe, for sure putting G's on airplane will get it old faster.

 

 

 

This is wrong information and this has been the point of emphasis I have been trying to get through in this thread.

 

Merging is NOT an emergency for which the paddle switch was designed. It is not used to gain angles, or to achieve a shot, or to maneuver out of a defensive position. It is not trained to that way. It is not taught to be used. It is not a consideration....both in the context of training and real combat. Again, over G-ing the airplane is officially not taught as a strategy for real combat.

 

A paddle switch emergency in the context of BFM would potentially be you are so extremely defensive and bullets are whizzing past your head that you are seconds from certain death. Now most gun shots happen at speeds where an Over G couldn’t happen anyway, so it’s a Moot point. But if you were fast enough, then you could justify it here. Personally, I doubt I would even think to use it in this example because I have never trained to it’s use nor studied that it should be used at all during a real engagement. It would be inappropriate to quote actual doctrine and tactics here, but I can say that the paddle switch in the the hornet is to be used for emergency only, and Hornet pilots do not consider merely being at the merge to be an emergency.

 

An Over G is a big deal. Maybe “back in the day” people were more carefree and “reset” the Gs. But not in modern times and certainly not in the Hornet.

 

edit: with regards to your quote “ And IMO i'm pretty sure about that....but again it's my opinion, and as the pilot community is representing the population, even amongst the pilots of a same squadron we might have some disagrement between them.”

 

This is universal at least for my country. I can’t speak for other nations, but every hornet pilot in every squadron in my country would agree with this. It does not vary or have disagreement from pilot to pilot. It is considered an accepted fact of life. Again, can’t speak for other locations.


Edited by G B
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