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Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event


M0ltar

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Just a question:

 

How was a rule surrounding G limit tied to a tool that interprets, rather than actively recording G- ie, Tacview, considered as arbiter for immediate challenge and removal from competition? It's grabbing coordinate positions and relative orientation, not actual G and speed, and doing so in a random frame fashion rather than with absolute time precision. A strong pull at or near corner recorded with short stamps but large AoA onset will almost invariably show a G excursion on a max pull.

 

It's not a reliable method for elimination, and resolving this is something to consider for the future.

 

Congratulations on the win for charity.

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Great tournament. Lot's of fun to participate and to watch on the live stream. And above all, a worthy and noble cause. I hope to be around for a next FOH edition. See ya!

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Congratulations to ACE (Sung Ho). Great job by Trigger. Amazing fights and a lot of fun to watch. We're still tallying it up, but I think we raised over $10,000 for a very worthy cause. That pays for two educational scholarships for children of fallen service members.

 

And a Hornet won, btw. ������

 

 

Even if i don't agree with the over G rule, i must say well done and that i would have liked to participate. I hope to have the necessary time for the next one.

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Congrats to Sung Ho for overcoming extremely adverse conditions for the Hornet. What he had to practice and train to do that is truly a feat few will understand.

 

I hope ED will take input from this thread and more closely model jet behavior to real life controls and EM diagrams where possible for them to do so.

 

Trigger is no slouch and it really could have gone either way.

 

Guess, it's back to training for me to get to Sung Ho's level.

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"That pays for two educational scholarships for children of fallen service members."

 

That is the best news and the only thing that matters!

 

And I was very much enjoying the only fight that I had against Winglet (and was glad to see him go all the way to quarter-finals!) and the streams after that. I felt that the enthusiasm and the spirits were really high on Discord, when we were waiting for things to kick off last weekend.

 

Thank you for organising this Mover and Moltar (and all the other staff involved), and thanks for getting the panel of your colleagues to join and comment today's fights, Mover. I know some of us simmers can be pig headed, but there is also a huge silent majority who are soaking in your stories, anecdotes and knowledge to try to get more immersion and fun out of our little game. Please. don't be discouraged by a few forum posts, but keep interacting with this rather fanatic (in good as in bad) gaming community :)

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善く戦う者は、まず勝つべからざるを為して、以て敵の勝つべきを待つ。

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Congrats Sung Ho,

 

I missed the whole thing, will watch it later on YT.

 

One more thing... you'd better not loose to this AI thing:glare:

 

Hey this gives me an idea, since I only fly SP currently... I'll make AI duke it out for a chance to fight a human (moi... or am I?)

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Just a question:

 

How was a rule surrounding G limit tied to a tool that interprets, rather than actively recording G- ie, Tacview, considered as arbiter for immediate challenge and removal from competition? It's grabbing coordinate positions and relative orientation, not actual G and speed, and doing so in a random frame fashion rather than with absolute time precision. A strong pull at or near corner recorded with short stamps but large AoA onset will almost invariably show a G excursion on a max pull.

 

It's not a reliable method for elimination, and resolving this is something to consider for the future.

 

Congratulations on the win for charity.

 

 

 

Just want to point this out. How do you think DCS calculates G? It does calculations. You can’t get real G in a sim. Gravity doesn’t exist. You have to calculate it. By no means am I saying DCS and Tacview get to the G result the same exact way, but they both rely on math to get there. I tested this a lot with Frantz from Tacview who checked and implemented our tool and G in Tacview is very accurate and even when it’s slightly off which is very little when it is, we added the buffer to account for this. However, when lag comes in g can get really wonky in Tacview and DCS. Therefore, Tacview is just as reliable as DCS from our testing. We didn’t just throw this whole thing together without thinking it through at the start. We tried our best to execute it as well as we could given the tools we have. I know somethings were not perfect, but the important thing is to learn from those issues and adjust and correct for things in the future.

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Just want to point this out. How do you think DCS calculates G? It does calculations

 

There's a fundamental difference between real-time calculations based on control inputs, weight, speed, and air density versus limited frame captures separate from the physics taking place in the background. One has all of the data all the time, the other has only incremental portions of the resulting outcome gathered only so often. To state that the results are comparable just because there is math involved is a false comparison. Anyone who has watched Tacview race to catch up in frame calculations with excessive rolling compensation that doesn't remotely match what occured in sim has witnessed the difference.

 

That's not dismissing Tacview as a valuable tool. It does, however, show that it has limitations as arbiter.

 

You mention elsewhere that Frantz made a custom version for this very eventuality to catch over-G in real time: did it do so, or was the challenge of the excessive load event made after the fact?

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There's a fundamental difference between real-time calculations based on control inputs, weight, speed, and air density versus limited frame captures separate from the physics taking place in the background. One has all of the data all the time, the other has only incremental portions of the resulting outcome gathered only so often. To state that the results are comparable just because there is math involved is a false comparison. Anyone who has watched Tacview race to catch up in frame calculations with excessive rolling compensation that doesn't remotely match what occured in sim has witnessed the difference.

 

That's not dismissing Tacview as a valuable tool. It does, however, show that it has limitations as arbiter.

 

You mention elsewhere that Frantz made a custom version for this very eventuality to catch over-G in real time: did it do so, or was the challenge of the excessive load event made after the fact?

 

 

I was comparing the 2 with math because you made it seem like dcs has real g when it doesn’t. It uses math to simulate it which is exactly what tacview does. They use calculations based on movement and other date to arrive at a g figure. I simple said that the calculations are probably different. They still attempt to do the same thing.

 

But like I said in my piece on Hoggit it does match or come very close. I’ve yet to see it show incorrect data when viewed from a server generated acmi rather than a client side one. When we view things for satal from the server generated acmi files they’re always spot on. People have a tendency to equate 1 or a couple bad experiences with something happening all the time. The issue with what we saw today was more than likely a cause of desync which is an invisible foe that I didn’t give enough thought to.

 

It was caught in real time and was only a single anomaly for 197 matches. I’d say that’s pretty successful.

 

Regardless, this argument doesn’t matter. The event is over, it accomplished its task of raising vast amounts of funding for charity, and the compatriots had a good time. All we can do now is use our lessons learned to do better for next year.

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Fact still stands ;) Btw Sungho ratefought against the Su-27 ^^

 

You either didn't watch the fights or have zero idea what "rate fight" even means. Or you're just trolling at this point.

 

Watch the fights. Watch the interview with SungHo at the end. Try again.

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G.B., I do value your input greatly, and will miss it if you go.

 

It is obvious that my input is not valued here. I am patient and I always keep my discussions civil. While I cannot speak for the other pilots, I will say that my time on the forums is done. I know you will say good riddance. That is fine. My time here is up. Thanks to the great members of this community who enjoy learning and talking about fighter jets and for those have given me great feedback.

If we meet, first round is on me.

 

As for what this thread has turned into.... DCS means different things to different people. If you want to try and fly as close to real world tactics and procedures, pulling the paddle to get an advantage in nose position is not something you’re going to do, because it isn’t done. Period.

 

And if the organizers of the tournament want to enforce that and call it a cheat, that’s their prerogative. There was an issue with how that was judged today, and someone was DQ’d as a result. There were apologies made, sh!t happens and it’s dealt with.

 

But FFS, We’ve lost GB, who has contributed his real world knowledge and advice to this community for a long time - we are all poorer now that he’s gone.

 

Look, mortalkombat, we get you’re a DCS gamer, and maybe you are good one, too. You have stated your opinion.

 

If the organizers wanted to try to make things more real world, then that’s that. A call was blown. It happens. Next time will be different.

 

If you’d like to organize your own tournament for charity, and g limit overrides are welcome, I’d say go for it.

 

But right now you’re chasing away real world SMEs because you aren’t putting this to rest.

 

Please stop.

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Congrats Sungho! Make us proud kicking that AI's butt!

 

Thanks to everyone that put in their time and effort to make this event possible. I had a blast competing. I flew some virtual jets, met some great ppl and helped out an amazing cause, can't ask for a better way to spend a couple weekend mornings!

 

See you all at the next one!

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You either didn't watch the fights or have zero idea what "rate fight" even means. Or you're just trolling at this point.

 

Watch the fights. Watch the interview with SungHo at the end. Try again.

 

He sure didn't go for radius. First fight was draining energy, second fight the Su was outrated by the 18 in the vertical. As a matter of fact the Su wanted to make it 1c hence radius but Sungho kept it clean 2c :smartass:. It's weird that I have to tell you that rate fight does not only include the straight horizontal two circle.

 

Since we are apparently went from why a g limit is controversial and led to many good pilots not signing up, to measuring virtual dick sizes let's compare. I won the last big DCS tournament defeating many players including Sungho in May. This makes me think I can to a certain degree say that I have some rudimentary idea of bfm and have spent a decent time in DCS. Sungho won FOH because he is an outstanding pilot and imo the best pilot out there at the moment. That being said many of the pilots who won or landed in the top places of past tournaments and could have contested him did not participate. Some did not want to pay the entry fee, some did not want to support the cause, but some of them were not happy with the ruleset and thought it to be unfair for the reason I have laid down many times in this thread already. Wether not joining because of the rules is justified or not is anyone's guess. Lucky for you the best DCS mirage pilots I've come across also didn't sign up for tournament which is why you are able to discredit me by pointing at sungho winning without even having to go up against one (correct me if am wrong). Although not impossible, the skill needed for defeating the mirage in the 18 has to be significantly higher than the skill to defeat the 18 in the mirage with this ruleset. Just my two cents, but also what I've heard from others not participating. Ultimately I just wanted to point these DCS specific things to make you aware of it so rulesets can potentially be improved to match everyone's desire (eventhough this is unlikely). No confrontation intended (at least in my initial post).

 

You went full amok mode and made fun of everyone contradicting you. You even discredited yourself by laughing at one user that compared certain aspects of real flying with dcs without you knowing that he is also a real life fighter pilot :thumbup:. It seems like you are trapped in being overly confrontative in this thread which is sad. Not everyone is talking bullshit eventhough it's the internet. Some have decent experience. Some may know certain things better than you. And some may even have real life fighter experience like you ;)

 

Nevertheless the tournament was a fun to watch. Congratulations to sungho for an absolutely deserved win <3.


Edited by mortalkombat
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The elephant in the room is the toxic environment. As with automobiles, trains, nuclear, space, medicine and about all tech/human discoveries and inventions, the gained knowledge does not come with the wisdom to use it. Thankfully we learned very quick with nuclear but the Japan incident still iterates we are far from masters of it. Social media is no different, has great promise to accelerate improvements of the human condition, but also has the possibility of causing great harm. Finding a place where this toxicity doesn't exist has eluded me. You won't stop intentional weaponization of it, but you do have the choice weather to be a part of the harm caused by those who do weaponize it...that is their intent, to use you to do exactly that, cause harm. Sure ya'll don't care but I'm with G.B. on this.

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Oi. What a mess, 32 pages of idiocy. It doesn't matter if you like the ruleset, arbiter mechanics, or agree with each other. Don't sign up if you don't like it, otherwise take a leap and shut your traps. I mean seriously, who cares if a call is incorrect? It's a video game, a charity event, AND there's no consequences. Stop being such neckbeards and just play the game.

 

As for real vs virtual pilots, again, doesn't really matter. It's a video game and a charity event, stop being neckbeards. Fly whatever tactics and fashion you prefer and stop arguing nonsense that has tangential value in the video game in the first place. It literally DOESN'T MATTER on either side, or what the results are.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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Biggest problem is that there is a disconnect going on, in short this is a video game, not rlf. We're not here for the equivalent of an exercise, were not employed by the AF, we just want to play the game with no limits (barring game breaking bugs) and have fun.

 

Which is what most people do. If you don't want to observe realistic limits then join different events. Whether any one person likes it is pointless. Nobody here is a special panda whose preferences must be catered to. This is like bitching about a clan having a certain culture... don't join that clan, they're not hurting anybody.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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He sure didn't go for radius. First fight was draining energy, second fight the Su was outrated by the 18 in the vertical. As a matter of fact the Su wanted to make it 1c hence radius but Sungho kept it clean 2c :smartass:. It's weird that I have to tell you that rate fight does not only include the straight horizontal two circle.

The first fight was one circle vertical. The second fight was out of plane two circle that eventually transitioned to one circle and then a BFM error by Trigger that gave SungHo a big opportunity. Sungho's own words (as quoted above) were that he knew a two circle fight wouldn't work against the Flanker.

 

 

Since we are apparently went from why a g limit is controversial and led to many good pilots not signing up, to measuring virtual dick sizes let's compare. I won the last big DCS tournament defeating many players including Sungho in May. This makes me think I can to a certain degree say that I have some rudimentary idea of bfm and have spent a decent time in DCS. Sungho won FOH because he is an outstanding pilot and imo the best pilot out there at the moment. That being said many of the pilots who won or landed in the top places of past tournaments and could have contested him did not participate. Some did not want to pay the entry fee, some did not want to support the cause, but some of them were not happy with the ruleset and thought it to be unfair for the reason I have laid down many times in this thread already. Wether not joining because of the rules is justified or not is anyone's guess. Lucky for you the best DCS mirage pilots I've come across also didn't sign up for tournament which is why you are able to discredit me by pointing at sungho winning without even having to go up against one (correct me if am wrong). Although not impossible, the skill needed for defeating the mirage in the 18 has to be significantly higher than the skill to defeat the 18 in the mirage with this ruleset. Just my two cents, but also what I've heard from others not participating. Ultimately I just wanted to point these DCS specific things to make you aware of it so rulesets can potentially be improved to match everyone's desire (eventhough this is unlikely). No confrontation intended (at least in my initial post).

 

You went full amok mode and made fun of everyone contradicting you. You even discredited yourself by laughing at one user that compared certain aspects of real flying with dcs without you knowing that he is also a real life fighter pilot :thumbup:. It seems like you are trapped in being overly confrontative in this thread which is sad. Not everyone is talking bullshit eventhough it's the internet. Some have decent experience. Some may know certain things better than you. And some may even have real life fighter experience like you ;)

 

This is the perfect example of Dunning Kruger. There's nothing left to say.

 

Congrats to Sungho and thanks to everyone for participating.


Edited by Mover
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The first fight was one circle vertical. The second fight was out of plane two circle that eventually transitioned to one circle and then a BFM error by Trigger that gave SungHo a big opportunity. Sungho's own words (as quoted above) were that he knew a two circle fight wouldn't work against the Flanker.

 

 

 

This is the perfect example of Dunning Kruger. There's nothing left to say.

 

Congrats to Sungho and thanks to everyone for participating.

 

 

Just a question to understand how the rule was applied: i've seen several Over Gs just like this one:

 

 

Hornet limit is 7.5+0.5= 8G and W Ace pulled till 8.3G. Was this tollerated?

The rule is *G Limits for all aircraft are being imposed this year to remove or greatly reduce the opportunity people have to exploit. If a pilot is found to have gone over the G limit for their aircraft a round loss will be issued for that round for that pilot. G Limits for specific aircraft are as follows. If you do not see the aircraft you are flying assume that there is no G Limit.

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The first fight was one circle vertical. The second fight was out of plane two circle that eventually transitioned to one circle and then a BFM error by Trigger that gave SungHo a big opportunity. Sungho's own words (as quoted above) were that he knew a two circle fight wouldn't work against the Flanker.

 

Sure mate, wathever makes you happy. The fight was oblique but still Sungho made rate the decisive factor by staying in lag. Talking Dunning Kruger huh.

We could take it to DCS to see who's right. But hey, you got "nothing to prove". Take care ;).

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Many thanks for hosting the tournament, I'm just a spectator, but it's always a great pleasure to watch! One question though, is there any way to watch it in higher def than the replays on Mover's channel

(awesome channel, many thanks Mover! just this particular tournament is pixelated, shifted colours on some fights etc). DCSWordEvents Twitch has no Fight for Honor 2020 videos at all atm
Will they be published or should we just make do with Mover's youtube recordings?
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Just a question to understand how the rule was applied: i've seen several Over Gs just like this one:

 

 

Hornet limit is 7.5+0.5= 8G and W Ace pulled till 8.3G. Was this tollerated?

The rule is *G Limits for all aircraft are being imposed this year to remove or greatly reduce the opportunity people have to exploit. If a pilot is found to have gone over the G limit for their aircraft a round loss will be issued for that round for that pilot. G Limits for specific aircraft are as follows. If you do not see the aircraft you are flying assume that there is no G Limit.

 

They said don't pay attention to the info bar at the bottom. The real g limit readings were in tacview.

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