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Usability in the training missions is just horrible


Deny777

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Although there's elements of the OP I didnt agree with, (like the sim not allowing depth perception) the overwhelming message is ... can we have a Fast Forward AND a REWIND please?

 

I use the training missions, mostly once, sometimes twice and thereafter maybe again if Ive not flown regularly and forgot soemthing, but I am technical and I retain sequences and learn them fast so being able to skip parts I already saw or rewind a step I missed because of the dog going mental at the postman or something woudl be super useful.

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SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING *

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If you don't want to put the manual on a kneeboard but want to read it while flying.

 

Start up the manual before going into DCS. Leave it up.

 

To read it while flying. Pause the sim. Click on Alt-Tab. It will bring up the manual. Click on the DCS icon on the bottom of the screen on task bar to go back to the cockpit.


Edited by BuzzU

Buzz

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  • 3 weeks later...

On the training missions.

 

It would be nice to have the same type of missions available for each aircraft.

The F-18 has 20 training missions compared to only 8 for the F-16.

 

A few of the F-18 missions:

Air to Air Gun

Air to Ground Gun

Aim9 Air to Air

Aim120 Air to Air

Unguided rockets

ccip bombing

Manual bombing

auto bombing

high drag bombing

canister bombing

 

And the F-16 versions:

SMS page and CCIP bombs

ccip HD bombs

ccrp cluster bombs

 

NO gun or missile missions for the F-16?

 

My take on how the training missions should have been implemented.

First off, they should have broken the start-up procedure tutorial into 3-4 different segments.

Go through segment one then take off, fly a little and end.

Next segment, do segment one again and then add segment two, take off, fly a little and end.

Next segment does the first two and adds more controls, fly's a little and then ends.

- This keeps the user engaged without putting them to sleep with long paragraphs from acronym hell.

- One of the issues I had at first was going through that 20-30 min start up procedure and then getting pissed off because I crashed while taxing to the runway! aaahhhhhhh!! rage quit, go to bed and don't log back in for a day or two. (This is not good for consumer confidence or loyalty by the way.)

 

New users have to learn everything at once!

Not only do they have to learn a 20-30 min start-up procedure but they also need to figure out how to use a flight stick a throttle a rudder and IR or VR! I probably left something out too. My point is that a new user has purchased this product to experience flying via a computer simulation. It should be set up to help new users ease into it a little at a time instead of all at once and head first.

 

 

Heck a whole training campaign could be created following the segment method I outlined above.

By the end of a 20 mission training campaign the user would know how the aircraft works and have a sense of accomplishment. With that new found confidence in their flying ability; they would be eager to purchase a campaign or two to test their air-superiority.

 

 

Final thoughts.

If the desired result of a product is to increase revenue along with market share then the product should have features that enhance the user experience, not hinder it.

To me, the training mission differential, says that ED has become tired of making them and has become dependent on the user base to create them. That isn't a feature consumers are willing to pay top dollar for.

 

If I had know how painful the training missions are, and how hard adding user created missions, was going to be; I probably wouldn't have purchased the A-10, P-51, F-18 and F-16. I would have just flown the planes in FC3.

I spent WAYYY to much time figuring out OvGME, just so I could use some of the missions the user base created.

If ED is going to rely on the user base to create missions then they should implement a program like OvGME into DCS. This would make everything so much easier for new users and definitely keep users invested; instead of feeling lost, confused or mad which means that they will be looking into other products.

 

Thanks for reading,

Oz

 

 

 

forgive my english, english is my first language but I slept through language class because of the acronyms.

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NO gun or missile missions for the F-16?
You do understand it's early access... right?

 

- One of the issues I had at first was going through that 20-30 min start up procedure and then getting pissed off because I crashed while taxing to the runway! aaahhhhhhh!! rage quit, go to bed and don't log back in for a day or two. (This is not good for consumer confidence or loyalty by the way.)
This brings up a good point that I had not thought up until this thread was bumped.

 

1. Why do users think the training missions are something they have to *pass?* Yes, in RL flight training under structured (paid/free) systems you do have to *pass* flight lessons. If you do not progress at a rate to justify the cost you are expelled from the program.

 

But this is not the case in DCS. You run a cold start mission to learn the cold start. WHO CARES if you crash? Did you learn the cold start? Does crashing during the taxi mandate running the tutorial again?

 

If you want to practice taxi procedures, you can simply load a takeoff instant action mission and taxi around the runway/airport. No fiddling with the mission editor required.

 

2. Why do users think they have to practice with training missions? Why does the UI/material not inform users that if they want to practice a procedure/technique that they can use many free flight scenarios instead of advancing through a tutorial. If you already learned the steps of the tutorial, and just want to practice 1 specific task, why not just load a quick mission and practice it?

 

New users have to learn everything at once!

Not only do they have to learn a 20-30 min start-up procedure but they also need to figure out how to use a flight stick a throttle a rudder and IR or VR! I probably left something out too. My point is that a new user has purchased this product to experience flying via a computer simulation. It should be set up to help new users ease into it a little at a time instead of all at once and head first.

Unfortunately this is part of the process of learning these complex machines. There's just a lot of material to cover, and it's going to be a steep hill to climb at first. I agree, and think there should be more training missions to help, but unfortunately I don't think this problem can be totally solved. I agree with others that outside media can fill this gap. And my preference with a new aircraft (lately purchased before substantial training missions become available) is to set in a cold aircraft on the ramp and read the manual/ Early Access Guide/ Real sources.

 

Heck a whole training campaign could be created following the segment method I outlined above.

By the end of a 20 mission training campaign the user would know how the aircraft works and have a sense of accomplishment. With that new found confidence in their flying ability; they would be eager to purchase a campaign or two to test their air-superiority.

L-39 Kursant is an excellent example of it. I would have never thought I could do so much with that humble aircraft, or be so familiar with it. But I'm enjoying that campaign immensely.

 

IMHO All NATO modules need their training lessons and any training campaign available on the Nevada Map, using the relevant ranges and airspace for maximum immersion during training. It's quite literally a map designed for military aircraft training.. why am I dropping MK82's on the X airfield in the Caucasus??? There should be at least the option of performing this lesson in Nevada.

 

To me, the training mission differential, says that ED has become tired of making them and has become dependent on the user base to create them.
Again, early access. But otherwise I think you're correct. The community produces much more content than the developers possibly can. And frankly, it sounds like a lot of people either abuse or just can't tolerate the training missions. So it doesn't surprise me that they are less thoroughly supported. To see the quality difference, compare some of the earlier modules which have fully released, and their educational content.

 

That isn't a feature consumers are willing to pay top dollar for.
If I had know how painful the training missions are, and how hard adding user created missions, was going to be; I probably wouldn't have purchased the A-10, P-51, F-18 and F-16. I would have just flown the planes in FC3.

I spent WAYYY to much time figuring out OvGME, just so I could use some of the missions the user base created.

Never had to use such a program for any mission I've used. Just dropped it in the relevant file (heck even loaded it from the desktop) so not sure what you're talking about here. Probably indicative of the types of missions I'm using.
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Ozmandi, OvGME is a tool to easily manage mods. Mods are not mandatory in DCS. I don't use them at all. Sure, some missions require some mods, but you're free to choose the missions without any mods requirement. And certainly no paid campaign will force you into using any mod.

Let me remind you're in the sim which is trying to put you as close as possible to flying a real military aircraft. You sound like you demand that it should be as easy as jumping into the aircraft and blow stuff right away without knowing any bloody acronyms. But it's not. Far from that. You have to put a lot of effort to learn, practice (I mean tens of flight hours) and setup your hardware to be any decent. Don't start your combat campaign too soon or you'll end up frustrated by dying a lot and flying same mission 20 times without even knowing what went wrong.


Edited by draconus

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Ozmandi, if you're looking for instant gratification, this is the wrong place for it. Here, you're going to be expected to put a minimum amount of effort into thinking/learning about the subject, and all the user friendliness in the world isn't going to change that. People who rage quit because they don't immediately hear 'Dangerzone' when they jump in aren't going to get far here.

 

They provide you a free aircraft to learn the basics of flight that skips all the startup stuff. It also provides a simplified approach to every major weapon system and method except radar A2A and GPS guided bonbs. Maybe instead of complaining about how complex the *obviously complex* aircraft are and how unsuitable they are to learning the basics (rl pilots don't start on F-18s etc), maybe, just maybe, you should use the tools provided for you to learn those things. I think the issue is less ''the game'' as your unwillingness to put in any effort and your own unrealistic expectations.

 

Stick to the free 25T and the FC3 planes if you can't stomach more than a 60 second startup or rage quitting when you make a mistake @@

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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You guys make it sound that the training missions in DCS are fine as it is. They are not. Many of them are even broken in the current Open Beta. Last time I tried the start-up training mission in the F14 for example it just didn't work.

 

This has nothing to do with instant gratification, so while Ozmandi's request may be a little over the top, the fact remains that training missions, and missions in general in DCS are usually very bare-bones, they do not get updated between patches and many require more effort than should be necessary to even get them to work properly.

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If I had know how painful the training missions are, and how hard adding user created missions, was going to be; I probably wouldn't have purchased the A-10, P-51, F-18 and F-16.

I think some people purchase way too many modules without realizing how complex they are. Unless you have a lot of extra time and aptitude it’s best to stick with a single module for a long time.

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Man some of you people have issues.

Many of the statements I made were in jest.

Nowhere in my post do I 'rant and rage' about my experience.

I have mearly state my thoughts and experiences, so I'm sorry if my experiences have caused you grief.

 

 

Ozmandi, if you're looking for instant gratification, this is the wrong place for it.

I don't believe I stated that I was looking for instant gratification.

I was explaining some of the reasons people don't stick with DCS, since I've seen that question many places on this forum, and since it is an issue I was just sharing my thoughts.

If you could see the total number of total deaths I've accumulated in DCS, you'd probably take this statement back. :)

 

Here, you're going to be expected to put a minimum amount of effort into thinking/learning about the subject, and all the user friendliness in the world isn't going to change that. People who rage quit because they don't immediately hear 'Dangerzone' when they jump in aren't going to get far here.

You didn't know this about me but, since you mentioned 'Dangerzone' I thought I'd share it with you; I don't like the Navy and I don't own the F-14 module. But 'Dangerzone' is still a great song!

 

They provide you a free aircraft to learn the basics of flight that skips all the startup stuff. It also provides a simplified approach to every major weapon system and method except radar A2A and GPS guided bonbs. Maybe instead of complaining about how complex the *obviously complex* aircraft are and how unsuitable they are to learning the basics (rl pilots don't start on F-18s etc), maybe, just maybe, you should use the tools provided for you to learn those things.

I could go into the economics and physics of how nothing is ever truly 'free' but that would cause this thread "to go off the deep end" based on some of the responses to my post.

Did you even read my post? I mentioned a step by step segmented training campaign BECAUSE it is a complex system. I didn't say anything about dummying it down or making it easier.

I thought we were discussing the 'tools provided' which are the training missions?

 

I think the issue is less ''the game'' as your unwillingness to put in any effort and your own unrealistic expectations.

umm, I don't think I stated that I was unwilling to put in the effort. You are injecting your own thoughts and ideologies into this post and they are not mine.

Again, I'll say this. If you could see the total number of deaths I've accumulated in DCS you would take this statement back.

 

Stick to the free 25T and the FC3 planes if you can't stomach more than a 60 second startup or rage quitting when you make a mistake @@

You failed to pick up on the humor of my 'rage quit' statement. I was merely pointing out the fact that I went through the whole start up process successfully but it was in vain because I crashed while taxing - which pretty much nullifies why I started the aircraft up in the first place. I think this is funny, but that's just me.

 

 

 

Ozmandi, OvGME is a tool to easily manage mods. Mods are not mandatory in DCS. I don't use them at all. Sure, some missions require some mods, but you're free to choose the missions without any mods requirement. And certainly no paid campaign will force you into using any mod.

I know it is. I had to do a lot of research into mod management and tried at least 3 of them, until I finally stuck with OvGME. I have it working now and its great, but the reason I even had to go this route was because the user base created training missions that DCS didn't have.

Heck, ED made money from this venture because some of the missions were for a map I didn't own! So I purchased a new map to fly the "user created" missions. And I use OvGME to manage those missions!

 

Let me remind you're in the sim which is trying to put you as close as possible to flying a real military aircraft. You sound like you demand that it should be as easy as jumping into the aircraft and blow stuff right away without knowing any bloody acronyms. But it's not. Far from that. You have to put a lot of effort to learn, practice (I mean tens of flight hours) and setup your hardware to be any decent. Don't start your combat campaign too soon or you'll end up frustrated by dying a lot and flying same mission 20 times without even knowing what went wrong.

I'm a realist. I'll never ever get a chance to pilot a military aircraft. For two basic reasons: I wear glasses and I'm color-blind. I didn't purchase these modules with the hope of actually flying one someday.

I've re-read my post serval times and I can't see where I demanded anything.

As a US Marine I understand the nature, use and logic for military acronyms. The acronym statement was meant to be a joke; as seen from a 'new user' point of view.

Combat? hehe, I haven't even gotten to that part yet. I'm still trying to make a landing that doesn't result in the loss of several billions of US dollars!

 

 

I think some people purchase way too many modules without realizing how complex they are. Unless you have a lot of extra time and aptitude it’s best to stick with a single module for a long time.

Well that's where the marketing department did an awesome job of selling their product.

I couldn't pass on a 50% discount per module!

Nothing is ever 'free' so if you can get it at half-price, do it. :pilotfly:

 

Your friendly neighborhood, pot-stirring, miss-quoted, over-opinionated, rabble-rousing, American white male.

Oz

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Can you provide an example of a training mission that requires the use of a program such as OvGME (I personally use JSGME but it's the same). I've never seen an example of this before.

The xxGME itself is never required as it's just a tool to manage the mods. But to name one pack of training missions that require mods and PG map:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=226686

 

 

Ozmandi, look, you got answers because of what you wrote. There's no reason to explain every sentence now, that it was not what you meant and you didn't say it. It came from you and this is how people understand written english - clearly it was how people read it. Sorry we coudn't catch your jokes. Next time try to be more clear to avoid the confusion. Happy flying! :pilotfly:


Edited by draconus

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Heck, ED made money from this venture because some of the missions were for a map I didn't own! So I purchased a new map to fly the "user created" missions. And I use OvGME to manage those missions!

 

Just a quick tip. There should be a folder "C:/users/-your username-/saved games/DCS World/Missions".

This is where you should put downloaded user created missions and campaigns, as well as your own created missions. The Mission Editor should look into that folder by default.

As it is not part of the install directory, you don't need any mod managers.

That can save a lot of time and fiddling with the install directory, which is potentially causing issues with the integrity check and may delete/overwrite your mission files during updates

Shagrat

 

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Just a quick tip. There should be a folder "C:/users/-your username-/saved games/DCS World/Missions".

This is where you should put downloaded user created missions and campaigns, as well as your own created missions. The Mission Editor should look into that folder by default.

As it is not part of the install directory, you don't need any mod managers.

That can save a lot of time and fiddling with the install directory, which is potentially causing issues with the integrity check and may delete/overwrite your mission files during updates

 

Is it possible to change where the ME and core looks for missions? For example, can I make DCS look into Saved Games for default campaigns and quick missions?

 

If I click on My Campaigns, it mixes up all campaigns of different modules in Saved Games.

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Look in Saved Games\DCS\MissionEditor\settings.lua Near the top are "missionPath" and further down settings for the recent files.

 

Thanks but "missionPath" is already pointing to my Saved Games. What I'm looking for is if I click Ka-50 on the left pane under Campaigns for example, I want the list of campaigns that shows up to point at my Saved Games campaigns. Right now, they point to \DCS\Mods\aircraft\Ka-50\Missions\

 

It will point to Saved Games if I click on "My Campaigns" but it lists all my campaigns regardless of aircraft type.

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I might be misunderstanding the issue, but if I have edited a mission, and don't want it to be saved amongst all the other missions in my Saved Games folder as you are describing, I create a new folder in explorer so I would then look in "My missions\Campaigns" and see a list of folders that I have created - one for each aircraft if necessary. I admit, that it would be a tiny bit easier if the save dialog in the ME allowed you to create folders though.



Edited by mkiii
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Thanks but "missionPath" is already pointing to my Saved Games. What I'm looking for is if I click Ka-50 on the left pane under Campaigns for example, I want the list of campaigns that shows up to point at my Saved Games campaigns. Right now, they point to \DCS\Mods\aircraft\Ka-50\Missions\

 

It will point to Saved Games if I click on "My Campaigns" but it lists all my campaigns regardless of aircraft type.

 

The module icons on the left point directly into the module mission folder, so if you want to sort your campaigns through the icons you have to place the downloaded missions and campaigns directly into the specified module folder. The My Campaigns icon just lists everything you downloaded into the saved games folder. I created a folder for every campaign which starts with the module title and then the campaign name as a workaround.

Just a tip if you download some updated original campaigns from MadDog-IC put it in the My Campaigns folder because if you put it in the module folder you have 2 identical campaign names and can't really figure out which ones the updated one. ;)

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The module icons on the left point directly into the module mission folder, so if you want to sort your campaigns through the icons you have to place the downloaded missions and campaigns directly into the specified module folder.

 

If I do that, would they be deleted during repair and update?

 

 

I might be misunderstanding the issue, but if I have edited a mission, and don't want it to be saved amongst all the other missions in my Saved Games folder as you are describing, I create a new folder in explorer so I would then look in "My missions\Campaigns" and see a list of folders that I have created - one for each aircraft if necessary. I admit, that it would be a tiny bit easier if the save dialog in the ME allowed you to create folders though.

 

My missions/Campaigns? You mean /Saved Games/Missions/Campaigns/en/?

I created separate folders for each module campaigns in there but they all show up mixed together in the game's My Campaign.

 

Or were you suggesting I put the custom campaigns under Missions instead of My Campaigns? Because I do see folders inside My Missions. But not in My Campaigns.

 

Thanks for replying.


Edited by Taz1004
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If I do that, would they be deleted during repair and update?

 

 

I have to say i don't know for sure, it was 2-3 years ago when i messed around with it. BUT i still have a user made campaign in my m-2000 folder there since 2018 and i believe i have at least done one repair in 2 years. :) Updates don't do anything to the campaign so far, except if you have downloaded updated campaigns from maddoc-ic from the userfiles and overwrite the original campaign files. I believe they get updated when ED fix those missions themselves.

 

Another idea to sort your campaigns in the my campaigns icon would be that you edit every .cmp file from every campaign you have and give it a suitable naming. Module-Campaign title whatever but its a bit of a task because you have to edit every .cmp file and change the name there.

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My missions/Campaigns? You mean /Saved Games/Missions/Campaigns/en/?

I created separate folders for each module campaigns in there but they all show up mixed together in the game's My Campaign.

 

Or were you suggesting I put the custom campaigns under Missions instead of My Campaigns? Because I do see folders inside My Missions. But not in My Campaigns.

 

Thanks for replying.

 

What I meant was "My Missions" as shown in the Folder Browser on the LH side (assuming you have it turned on). This points to Saved Games\DCS\Missions\ Inside my setup, is a folder named Campaigns - perhaps we have different setups?

So select Campaigns from the Right hand list and place the file you are saving in there, where you have previously created a folder specific to your aircraft. EG Saved Games\DCS\Missions\ Campaigns\A-10c or Saved Games\DCS\Missions\ \Campaigns\AJS37\

I suppose you could put these in anywhere you like, but you have to make the individual folders yourself. I'm certainly not talking about the install folder, just emulating the Campaigns folder there.

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What I meant was "My Missions" as shown in the Folder Browser on the LH side (assuming you have it turned on). This points to Saved Games\DCS\Missions\ Inside my setup, is a folder named Campaigns - perhaps we have different setups?

So select Campaigns from the Right hand list and place the file you are saving in there, where you have previously created a folder specific to your aircraft. EG Saved Games\DCS\Missions\ Campaigns\A-10c or Saved Games\DCS\Missions\ \Campaigns\AJS37\

I suppose you could put these in anywhere you like, but you have to make the individual folders yourself. I'm certainly not talking about the install folder, just emulating the Campaigns folder there.

 

Yes and as I said, if I do as your example, A-10c campaign and AJS37 campaign will show up together within the game under My Campaigns. Ignoring the separate directory I created. Are you saying this doesn't happen on your end?

 

For few modules which have same GOW campaign name, this gets confusing. I can do what was suggested and change names of each campaign but I'm looking for better solution.

 

And erniedaoage's suggestion has issues too. If I put them in main directory under each module's mission, same campaign shows up twice. One official, and one modified by me.

 

What I'm looking to do is modify the official campaigns. And access them just like you would access the official campaigns. And also have them survive the repairs and updates. I thought I could achieve this simply by changing the path of where the game looks for official campaigns.

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I don't know what to say to you chap. we are clearly at crossed purposes. I was talking about individual mission files, so yes - campaigns do need to be in the en folder, and yes - they will be listed together, but don't you name them so there is no confusion? I guess one answer is to use OvGME and just create correctly named copies and mod them into the DCS campaign folder. Or use erniedaoage advice, and do the renaming - AFAIK, you can't just move them. You are probably going to get the answers you want by asking in a dedicated thread though, where there are more people who have to use modified campaign files, since this one was about Tutorial missions.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I agree with the basic gripes about the training missions, additionally sometimes you can foobar something so that a control hook is missed and then you need to restart and do it over hoping that you do not screw it up again. It would be nice if eagle dynamics would create downloadable missions, maps and brief html and tranining missions that were also kept up to date. Sure everyone says, create your own but for me at this point that is yet another learning curve that I dont want to undertake until I have some combat pilot chops.

 

Also I should add that it would be nice if eagle dynamics had a specific youtube channel that had the most current training videos and kept them up to date. Third party stuff is great but you never know if you are seeing something that is current, correct, and not outdated. It can be quite frustrating to watch a ton of vids on the same subject becuase as a newbie you dont know if you did it wrong or the video is just out of date.

 

BTW overall I love DCS. It is currently the only game I play and I spend a good deal of time doing it.

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Also I should add that it would be nice if eagle dynamics had a specific youtube channel that had the most current training videos and kept them up to date.

They do

 

https://www.youtube.com/c/MattWagner

 

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