missing info AI so basic and dumb

[Lau]

ED,

 

It is appalling to see the level AI is performing, yes more planes, more maps and we are stock with the same AI. Fly MP you would say and I will agree, but come on AI is part of your product and as such deserves the level of attention that you would put in the knob of one of your 3D planes.

 

-AI turning in circles at each waypoint before continuing to the next one, highly unrealistic.

-AI turns always at max bank angle and using burners if allowed via editor, flying formation with AI is good training and highly unrealistic.

-AI diving or climbing always at max performance, even with custom waypoints via editor (e.g. smooth altitude gaps).

-AI not following CASE I, II, III procedures around the supercarrier, just a very bad approximation.

-AI not communicating with the supercarrier, flying zip liped all the way

-AI KC135 behaving like fighters

-AI not using navigation lights and no option in the editor to force them to do so

-AI wingman shooting from CAT before lead and then circles just in front of the boat waiting for lead (not realistic considering NATOPS launch patherns)

-AI unrealistic cold & dark startup, with no way to adjust this via editor

-AI and more unrealistic AI that spoils the immersion of the game

 

DCS AI is not basic it’s simply very bad, please stop promises, retrieve your sleeves and do something about it, as loyal customers we already paid for this.

 

Of course there is much to be said about all other AI units in game, feel free to report under this thread all your AI discrepancies hoping that ED will reduce the gap that has widen up beyond reason as the game continues to evolve.

 

From a frustrated DCS single player,

 

Best,

 

Lau

Edited September 10, 2020 by Lau

[Ahmed]

ED,

-AI wingman shooting from CAT before lead

 

This is actually not neccesarily unrealistic, as long as they don't RTB after launch.

 

For the rest, agree.

[Lau]

This is actually not neccesarily unrealistic, as long as they don't RTB after launch.

 

For the rest, agree.

 

I should have wrote: shoots before lead and then circles in front of the carrier waiting for lead = unrealistic if we consider the NATOPS patherns around the boat.

 

Thanks for your contribution,

 

Best,

 

Lau

Edited September 10, 2020 by Lau

[metzger]

AI not able to use geometry on re-joins(turning rejoins) makes him go burner or mil whatever is max in trying to catch up which takes him forever to establish and half of his fuel.

AI very bad at changing formations in general

AI not able to execute tactical turns, in combination with the above 2 points he can only stay in formation in straight and level flight and mostly if you start from the air.

AI completely incabale of any proper AB operations, approaches or departures

AI completely incapable of doing proper AG attacks, he is mostly kamikadze.

AI incapable of covering you, if you tell him "cover me" he just attacks the nearest enemy even if it is SAM and he is F-15 with no A2G capabilities or it is not thread at all.

 

AI for some modules has completely borked flight models in BFM

AI completely incapable of following basic ACM tactics.

 

AI helicopter pilot trying to follow terrain will go up and down erratically with very unrealistic dives and climbs

AI helicopter pilot can't change formation and sometimes get stuck hovering not knowing what to do if commanded to change formation

 

AI KA50 send on reckon while NOE crash in the threes for no reason

AI KA50 do not respect the weapons range capabilities and go on kamikadze runs with vikhrs even if he can just hover fire.

 

 

And I can go forever :)

[dorianR666]

AI KA50 send on reckon while NOE crash in the threes for no reason

same for planes.

 

if it flies low, it reliably crashes into trees. ive had planes crash into hill forests while orbitting, tacview showed no attempt to avoid crashing at all. they just fly right into it as if it wasnt there. recently i played the interdiction mission for viggen - half the viggens crashed into trees or terrain on their way to target area... :doh:

 

i have a feeling the ai doesnt see trees at all. which would be crazy bad for something like helicopterś.

[metzger]

same for planes.

 

if it flies low, it reliably crashes into trees. ive had planes crash into hill forests while orbitting, tacview showed no attempt to avoid crashing at all. they just fly right into it as if it wasnt there. recently i played the interdiction mission for viggen - half the viggens crashed into trees or terrain on their way to target area... :doh:

 

i have a feeling the ai doesnt see trees at all. which would be crazy bad for something like helicopterś.

I suppose they never bothered adjusting the AI when they made the trees coliadable back i dcs 2.0. It's a shame really, AI is not on par with the rest of the sim, I find SP unusable for anything but basic flying and range practice as singleton and this with no atc unless supercarrier.

 

Sent from my SM-G985F using Tapatalk

[stormrider]

ED,

 

It is appalling to see the level AI is performing, yes more planes, more maps and we are stock with the same AI. Fly MP you would say and I will agree, but come on AI is part of your product and as such deserves the level of attention that you would put in the knob of one of your 3D planes.

 

-AI turning in circles at each waypoint before continuing to the next one, highly unrealistic.

-AI turns always at max bank angle and using burners if allowed via editor, flying formation with AI is good training and highly unrealistic.

-AI diving or climbing always at max performance, even with custom waypoints via editor (e.g. smooth altitude gaps).

-AI not following CASE I, II, III procedures around the supercarrier, just a very bad approximation.

-AI not communicating with the supercarrier, flying zip liped all the way

-AI KC135 behaving like fighters

-AI not using navigation lights and no option in the editor to force them to do so

-AI wingman shooting from CAT before lead and then circles just in front of the boat waiting for lead (not realistic considering NATOPS launch patherns)

-AI unrealistic cold & dark startup, with no way to adjust this via editor

-AI and more unrealistic AI that spoils the immersion of the game

 

DCS AI is not basic it’s simply very bad, please stop promises, retrieve your sleeves and do something about it, as loyal customers we already paid for this.

 

Of course there is much to be said about all other AI units in game, feel free to report under this thread all your AI discrepancies hoping that ED will reduce the gap that has widen up beyond reason as the game continues to evolve.

 

From a frustrated DCS single player,

 

Best,

 

Lau

 

 

AI that's constantly deploying its airbrakes for no reason, even after afterburning.

AI flights that will only bomb one target per pass, even if there are several targets assigned.

AI that behaves according to an imaginary parallel universe's physics.

AI that are assigned SEAD, but as soon as they're locked by an enemy radar, jettison all their weapons and run.

AI that is incapable of maintaining formation

AI that is inbound for landing, but abort at last minute before touching down because a parked jet started taxing.

AI that will always and only go vertical after first merge.

AI that refuses to attack a target that is in range, in sight and has weapons for it, or the opposite, AI that has clairvoyant vision and can see through everything.

AI helicopters that are unable to flying below 90ft.

AI helicopters tactics where pop-up attacks behind cover doesn't exists.

[stormrider]

Oh yeah, how could I forget the infamous of all:

"3, Bingo Fuel."

1 min later

"3, Ejecting!"

[BIGNEWY]

Hi

 

Some things that will help.

 

Ensure the AI are set to veteran skill level, it does make a difference.

 

Trying to get an AI to fly low, helicopters for example will depend on terrain

 

AI is constantly being worked on and issues reported, it is a complex task, one of the biggest issues is having an AI that can perform tasks without needing a super computer to run it. For example many servers run missions with 1000+ units, for people on lower end machines it can be a problem, so we have to find a balance.

 

 

if you want to post a particular problem for looking into please add a short track replay with an example, we can test that particular example. One problem per thread when giving examples.

 

thanks

[Nealius]

The AI may be "constantly" worked on internally, but I've been with ED since Flaming Cliffs 2 and the AI on the customer's side has remind unchanged for that long.

[metzger]

The AI may be "constantly" worked on internally, but I've been with ED since Flaming Cliffs 2 and the AI on the customer's side has remind unchanged for that long.

 

I am from 2014 and I can confirm aside some specific bugs mostly introduced by updates the AI behavior described in this thread remains the same. And I am sure CPUs are way faster nowadays.

[BIGNEWY]

If I get a report with a good short track showing an AI problem I can report it and the team will try to fix it. I have reported many and many have been fixed.

 

But I need examples to show the team, without it I am chasing my tail, for those who do report and provide examples and good data I appreciate it, it helps make DCS better.

[Haukka81]

We dont need more tracks.

We need fixes to AI.

 

Its 2021 soon and AI is still fubar as it was in 2011.

 

Even blind tester can just hit generate fast mission and take look at AI in action. Lots of those problems can be seen right away.

 

Or maybe take look AI part in bug threads ;)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

We dont need more tracks.

We need fixes to AI.

 

And guess how you get fixes? :music_whistling:

 

ED abhors changes, so you basically have to shovel mountains of proof onto them.

[metzger]

While I understand what BIGNEW means I don't think this is a specific bug report for something in particular that can be reported in the typical way as a single bug. I also don't thing there is much more that BIGNEW can say.

 

First I would like to point I am not a beta tester or ED support, so reproducing bugs is not my job. Reproducing the behavior on the list bellow as separate short track files might take me hours of my time, so may be it is the ED support team job to do it. Let's take a look of the list I posted in the thread:

 

"

AI not able to use geometry on re-joins(turning rejoins) makes him go burner or mil whatever is max in trying to catch up which takes him forever to establish and half of his fuel.

 

-- Why a track file for that is really needed ? It is a well known AI behavior which is not a bug, it is how it is programmed probably 15 years ago and have not been changed since then. Not on par with the current sim level imho.

 

AI very bad at changing formations in general

 

--- Same as previous point basically. It's not something that is triggered in specific case or happens in a specific situation, it is just how AI currently works because it is very much outdated.

 

AI not able to execute tactical turns, in combination with the above 2 points he can only stay in formation in straight and level flight and mostly if you start from the air.

 

--- What track to include exactly ? If you have AI in loose formation and make a turn keeping him outside, he is going to get sucked badly then try to catch up with thrust instead of executing tac turn. This is standard AI behavior in DCS which needs major overhaul.

 

AI completely incabale of any proper AB operations, approaches or departures

 

--- What track to be added here ? Can you make an overhead brake with AI wingman, which is standard recovery for any VFR with a flght of 2 ship or more ? Can you ask him to do a formation takeoff or landing ?

 

 

AI completely incapable of doing proper AG attacks, he is mostly kamikadze.

 

-- What track to add here and why it is needed ? Have 2 ship KA-50 with vikhrs and ask the 2 to attack a ground target. I request a track where the AI will do hover fire from 7km and not running on top of the sams :)

 

AI incapable of covering you, if you tell him "cover me" he just attacks the nearest enemy even if it is SAM and he is F-15 with no A2G capabilities or it is not thread at all.

 

-- Again why track is needed ? It is a known behavior for ages, when instructed to cover, AI attacks the nearest thread no matter airbourne or SAM. Cover me I undestand as "stay safe, overwatch me and look for lunches and call the break while I am on the attack run" not "go kamikadze and destroy with guns this SA-10 that is painitingus"

 

AI for some modules has completely borked flight models in BFM

 

-- What track again ? There millions of threads out there proving that AI energy levels are aliens, Mig-15 is just one example. Really I don't think this is something new that requires a bug report and a specific track file.

 

AI completely incapable of following basic ACM tactics.

 

Not much to add here, you can only tell wingman attack bandits and just guess who and what he is about to do. Not much coordination to execute specific tactic e.g "double attack" or "loose deuce" or grinder for BVR

 

AI helicopter pilot trying to follow terrain will go up and down erratically with very unrealistic dives and climbs

 

-- This is a big one, any helicopter mission where you have to follow AI is a huge frustration, just play mission 17 of MI-8 spring tension campaign or Mission 3 of UN pilot UH1 campaign. Just 2 examples but there many more.

 

AI helicopter pilot can't change formation and sometimes get stuck hovering not knowing what to do if commanded to change formation.

 

-- This probably can be reported as a bug, but the general formations behavior from the first 3 points in the list is valid for rottary wing as well.

 

AI KA50 send on reckon while NOE crash in the threes for no reason.

 

-- Again may be valid for bug request, but I think it is known that AI crash into trees when flying low, and it is a big one for rottary wing because helicopters normally fly low.

 

AI KA50 do not respect the weapons range capabilities and go on kamikadze runs with vikhrs even if he can just hover fire.

 

Again, I request a track file where KA-50 AI will shoot from hover from 7km.

"

[razo+r]

Might also add that AI is getting re-calculated in tracks. They do not do the same maneuvers in the track that they did in the actual flight. This might be connected with the inaccurate tracks though.

 

I already had a bunch of times this pleasure. In the actual flight, I shot down the AI. But in the track, the AI maneuvered different and then sat behind my aircraft and I was shooting in the empty sky.

 

Should be considered when doing reports with tracks.

[stormrider]

2020 and the neglected state of DCS Core is overwhelming.

[MacEwan]

Guys, regardless of how bad the AI is, the requirement for internal action has been defined. The development team needs a well defined specific issue that is demonstrated in a short track to be able to assign the case to the correct team and begin investigating the problem properly.

 

This is not any different than anywhere else in the IT industry. This is how it is done. Either start a bug thread with the supplied track and description of the issue or be content to wait until the devs randomly stumble upon a fix for whatever problem is bugging you.

 

I want to see AI improvements also, but just saying "The AI is dumb they do X Y and Z and it's not realistic" is not enough.

[Snappy]

Guys, regardless of how bad the AI is, the requirement for internal action has been defined. The development team needs a well defined specific issue that is demonstrated in a short track to be able to assign the case to the correct team and begin investigating the problem properly.

 

This is not any different than anywhere else in the IT industry. This is how it is done. Either start a bug thread with the supplied track and description of the issue or be content to wait until the devs randomly stumble upon a fix for whatever problem is bugging you.

 

I want to see AI improvements also, but just saying "The AI is dumb they do X Y and Z and it's not realistic" is not enough.

 

Did you even actually read Metzgers post, two above your own?

The issues are so fundamental that posting tracks makes no sense.Its not like the AI has issues, the AI itself is the major issue and it has been that way for years. It should get a major overhaul and not cosmetic bug fixing.

 

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

Edited October 6, 2020 by Snappy

[Raven434th]

Not to mention the umpteen dozen times my wingman slams into me while taxiing

[MacEwan]

Did you even actually read Metzgers post, two above your own?

The issues are so fundamental that posting tracks makes no sense.Its not like the AI has issues, the AI itself is the major issue and it has been that way for years. It should get a major overhaul and not cosmetic bug fixing.

 

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

 

Well on that note we can agree, the AI does need a major overhaul, along with much of the DCS engine itself. The way I see it, the engine itself is limiting the AI's capabilities because so much stuff needs to be simplified in order to not bog down the game to basically 1FPS. If DCS were better optimized and able to take advantage of modern hardware an AI overhaul could be something we can hope for. And I do hope for it very much! But in the current state of things, I think the best we can hope for are to have specific bugs and little quirks fixed.

[Lau]

Good Day Everyone,

As a hardcore single player DCS represents a major hobby investment, while I am delighted with the new modules, I am deeply frustrated and disappointed at ED for the lack of AI developments. DCS is a combat SIM and as such, the environment in which we evolve with sophisticated modules does matter. I am under the impression that money has got the hand on the priorities, that the internal word within ED is to release as many new modules to keep sales targets, targets that are responsible for the lack of AI development.

DCS is a free combat world: I have spent the last seven month playing with the mission editor and doing my best to overcome the AI limitations through manual editing, even after such an amount of work, the result is disappointing, simply because the AI BUGs and limitations are so basic, making the AI useless at the level we should be able to play DCS. For me, AI is currently defeating the purpose I use DCS.

If there is a team dedicated to AI at ED, it must be very small or, on long holidays. Time and time again the same bug issues come back, are reported, fixed in one build to be broken in the next one.

It does not require so much testing and research to figure out that something is off with regards to AI in DCS. Go through the painful process of designing a 3 hours long mission through the mission editor and witness how half of your AI team has crashed without the enemy firing a single shot. Experience the satisfaction of coming back to trap on the supercarrier after a three hours long flight, just to find out that the deck is jammed by an AI. That is in the event you made it back to the supercarrier, since, your excellent DCS evening might well end in the long cue of AI traffic behind the tanker or simply, with no tanker at all after our DCS AI crashed in to it time and time again.

DCS AI logic is so basic, that it makes it useless and painful to use, having to micro manage every little step the AI makes, and even like this, it is so unreliable that it will certainly come with a new trick or limitation to ruin your evening build after build.

Often ED ends a message being grateful for the support we give them as customers, I do not think it is respectful to have in may 2022 AI that are not able to manage their own fuel, refuel, fire, move or fly in such an unnatural way, not to mention the long list of reported issues with AI as of today.

DCS has a lot of potential also, thanks to the companies that have accepted to develop amazing modules, so far ED is falling short with the environment we must use to enjoy the nicely crafted modules we purchased. I believe it also would be a sign of respect to EDs partners, to make DCS environment a priority (AI, weather, more realistic and bigger maps). As always, this means bigger end user machines to run all of it, which is an upgrade I recently made, believing that I would be able to use it by building more complex scenarios with massive amount of AIs, the least would be to have a return on our investment, but as it stands this does not seem possible, at least in the way I am currently using DCS as single player.

The person developing AI for DCS, cannot be a DCS fan or user and, is completely disconnected with AI operations within DCS. Else, they would have noticed the poor fuel management from wingmans. Even if you add many tankers along the route, once AI is far from the home base, it will give you that dreadful “bingo fuel” and then “unable” , even if the tanker is next to it, it will simply not assess the situation, simply because the code to do so is not there…

Make AI count, make it great like the best of your modules development, allocate the resources to make it happen.

No matter if you play in the single or multiplayer environment, at one stage of the other, you will need to rely on AI.

Thank you and best regards,

[norman99]

Brilliantly said, I couldn’t agree more. 

[NineLine]

Please make a proper bug report with 1 specific issue with supporting evidence. These threads are not helpful for getting issues that still need it reported.

Thanks.