Good Typhoon/Rafale article

[Hummingbird]

A good read:

 

https://hushkit.net/2015/12/18/typhoon-versus-rafale-the-final-word/

[Steph21]

Not biased at all toward the typhoon....:music_whistling:

Looking for excuses everywhere for the Typhoon, best part being:

 

"Leaked Swiss evaluation report

 

The leaked evaluation report from the Swiss fighter contest of 2008/09 put the Rafale ahead of Typhoon in almost every category tested, what do you make of this?

 

Any fighter evaluation depends on the details of the assessment criteria for each exercise and without seeing those, I cannot possibly speculate. However, one thing which is worth noting is that the Typhoon sent to Switzerland was apparently a tranche 1 and one with problems. Someone involved in the competition told me in person that ‘the Swiss told us [Typhoon] that technically speaking we had brought the finest jet of the bunch, but it was as if we had brought a Mercedes sports car where the door wouldn’t shut properly and the air conditioning was broken’."

 

It's total BS...

It constantly refers to Typhoon futur upgrade, but it doesn't mention the ones for the Rafale

Talks only about power for engine, not consumption...

"MICA which is not credible beyond 20km" -> LOL

 

If UK want to try to convince themselves Typhoon is the best plane in the world, so be it.

 

We just don't care which aircraft is the best, we are just happy our country went for the Rafale in France, it answers our needs, not the Typhoon.

 

And we all know the results of simulated engagement between Rafale and Typhoon IRL :music_whistling:

Edited September 11, 2020 by Steph21

[AeriaGloria]

Lol at his response about why Typhoon lost. While that certainly could be what happened, it’s impossible to be the full story that the tested Typhoon was like a Mercedes with a door that wouldn’t shut and broken air con. This is sponsored by Eurofighter, so to me it sounds like corporate speak for the car salesman saying “see it’s not a big problem just a random issue it’ll never happen to the one you buy I promise.” It’s a really fitting analogy, but when you compare it to other marketing stuff like “most reliable engine in the world means it’s cheap to maintain,” and then you look at GAF having single digit readiness, I’m sure the GAF is responsible for a lot of that, but if it’s plated gold on the outside it’s also plated gold on the inside so to say. The Mercedes might have a good engine, but if your test car has broken air con and door lock, maybe that’s a symptom of a bigger problem the engine maintenance won’t completely cancel out.

 

The leaked study does a good job of explaining the unused potential of the Eurofighter, and how it’s ambitions design goals also holds it back by delaying the integration of certain technologies, like only having laser guided bombs.

 

Reading the leaked report is interesting, almost predicted Kuwait/UAE/SA double purchase of Rafale and Eurofighter by saying “the differences are opposite and complementary, and an Air Force operating both types could be far more effective then a force of equal number with one type.”

What I wonder is what would the results of the leaked study if the Gripen was adjusted for cost, say buying more Gripens. To me that’s the magic of that category Gripen/JF-17/FA-50/FCK-1, the ability to use them in greater numbers then a more advanced asymmetrical opponent. I get how it isn’t an issue if your doing air policing out of one or two bases, but like the strike component. Can only hit one ground target? Send another Gripen, might still be cheaper then Eurofighter. But looking at past unit costs, Rafale would probably still win. It’s insane how well it did in those Swiss tests with no HMD, no long range air to air weapons

Edited September 11, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[AnarchyZG]

Typhoon is less mature then Rafale, basically because no one was in a hurry to upgrade Typhoons.

 

In general, I tend to agree that Typhoon has greater potential for future upgrades due to larger airframe and more powerful engines, however, Rafale has a head start.

 

As for the main disadvantage stated in the article, there's been talk of a new improved M88 engines offered for export with thrust of ~90kN which would put it on par with current eurojet engine.

[Steph21]

Link in the article mentionned by the OP :

https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-fighting-the-dassault-rafale-interview-with-a-rafale-combat-veteran/

 

Explain well why it's silly to try to compare Rafale and Typhoon.

[Hummingbird]

Read like a fair comparison in my opinion, and as listed is written by a research analyst from the Military Sciences at Royal United Services Institute. So he's probably more informed on the aircraft than most of us here.

[Etirion]

Link in the article mentionned by the OP :

https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-fighting-the-dassault-rafale-interview-with-a-rafale-combat-veteran/

 

Explain well why it's silly to try to compare Rafale and Typhoon.

 

Yet he calles the typhoon a joke and how its very easy to shoot. And only later says they're silly to compare, that entire interview didnt make much sense to me, I like Ates youtube channel but some of the comments in that interview were just silly.

[AeriaGloria]

Read like a fair comparison in my opinion, and as listed is written by a research analyst from the Military Sciences at Royal United Services Institute. So he's probably more informed on the aircraft than most of us here.

 

It literally says Sponsored by Eurofighter

[Hummingbird]

It literally says Sponsored by Eurofighter

 

 

Not the article, this report is (Where the Rafale isn't being compared btw): https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/whr_1-15_maximising_european_combat_air_power_0.pdf

 

 

In short the article isn't sponsored, it's just a fair comparison as far as I can tell, and it makes sense based on the raw figures we have of both aircraft.

[Steph21]

Yet he calles the typhoon a joke and how its very easy to shoot. And only later says they're silly to compare, that entire interview didnt make much sense to me, I like Ates youtube channel but some of the comments in that interview were just silly.

 

He was asked about DACT, that's why he mentioned his experience against the Typhoon. It's well documented that Rafale have very good results against Typhoons on those kind of exercise (at least by Frenchies :)).

 

But he did mention that Typhoon has the edge in high altitude, hence they won't try to fight them in their confort zone.

 

Anyway, let just be happy to have two wonderful European aircrafts and that we can be very efficient working together :thumbup:

 

We might all praise the FCAS in the future :D

[Mr_Burns]

Ahh military Top Trumps! As pointelss as XXXX on a nun.

[Zergburger]

"MICA which is not credible beyond 20km" -> LOL

 

 

are you saying that is has more or less range than 20km?

 

with how small it is, and the short burn duration, I could definitely buy that it can't make much past 25km.

[Steph21]

are you saying that is has more or less range than 20km?

 

with how small it is, and the short burn duration, I could definitely buy that it can't make much past 25km.

 

Way more, it's in the 60km range for IR version and 80km for EM version.

Only the seeker changes between IR and EM version.

 

Not talking of the MICA NG to come that will have a greater range.

[Hummingbird]

He was asked about DACT, that's why he mentioned his experience against the Typhoon. It's well documented that Rafale have very good results against Typhoons on those kind of exercise (at least by Frenchies :)).

 

IMO that's the problem, it's a one sided account, and it doesn't come across particularly balanced either.

 

Claiming the Typhoon is easy pickings at low altitude rings alarm bells as to the credibility of the statement, esp. since we know based on the design & specs that they're very close to each other.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Hummingbird

[Zergburger]

Way more, it's in the 60km range for IR version and 80km for EM version.

Only the seeker changes between IR and EM version.

 

Not talking of the MICA NG to come that will have a greater range.

have you seen a MICA launch? there is no way that thing has 80km range, unless you are talking about some storybook 55k ft mach 2.0 launch against a cooperative target.

[Steph21]

have you seen a MICA launch? there is no way that thing has 80km range, unless you are talking about some storybook 55k ft mach 2.0 launch against a cooperative target.

 

Yes i've seen it, but it doesn't mean anything as you don't know what were shoot parameters, objectives of the tests, target parameters...etc

 

Here is a working video, showing shots at low altitude (5000 ft for the shot from the Rafale), low range:

Here is another short one, at higher altitude:

 

But if you want to believe that MICA has only a 20km range at high altitude, i've no problem with it :thumbup:

Just be sure you're not talking about the VL-MICA, which has a 20km range as it's being fired from the ground.

 

French Air Force is very happy with the MICA on their 2000-5 and Rafale.

And they are now delighted to get the Meteor to work with the Rafale AESA radar.

MICA NG will soon be available also and will be a good complement to the Meteor.

 

But as "ATE" mentioned, we don't really care about the Typhoon in France. It doesn't fulfill the needs of our French Air Force and Navy, the Rafale does. Furthermore we are working with Typhoons, not against them.

We are happy with our Rafale. If you are happy with your Typhoon, then everybody is happy :)

 

i'll be happy to give the Typhoon a try in DCS, and then i'll be delighted to switch to the Rafale if it's ever implemented in DCS.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Steph21

[Hummingbird]

Hopefully the Rafale will come to DCS, it's a marvelous fighter that I think most people want to see and fly in DCS, myself included. It would also dispell the myth that it is better than the Typhoon at low alt, because it isn't, it just has different merits by comparison that makes it better in a one circle fight (higher accessible AoA), whilst the Typhoon has it in the sustained two circle department.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Hummingbird

[Spurts]

Dassault already killed one 3rd party Rafale project for DCS, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[Hummingbird]

Well I'm hopeful now that the EF is arriving.

[Qiou87]

Dassault already killed one 3rd party Rafale project for DCS, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

I know they killed a "passion project" mod of Rafale, but they also killed a real, actual 3rd party developer project as well? Or they just refuse to give the licence?

 

I think similar to other modules like 2000C, a good motivation for a 3rd party to do the Rafale would be an agreement with an air force operating it and wanting to use DCS to train their pilots in some way (like the AdA is doing for cooperative, large-scale missions AFAIK). They give access to the jet but don't actually pay for the full development, instead it becomes a public module.

 

In any case, I also don't get my hopes up. It is quite nice to get the EF as a substitute though, it is not another american jet at least.

[Spurts]

it is not another american jet at least.

 

I, as an American, agree. Too often the "good fast jet modules" are all US jets. I would LOVE a good Su-30, MiG-31, MiG-29K, Sea Harrier, or Rafale. I just feel the Typhoon we are being offered is going to be a more powerful F-16 (only American weps AFAIK, no PIRATE) with German colors.

[Etirion]

We already have the IRIS-T confirmed as our primary Fox2 weapon, so thats a non-american one already. The cockpit is going to be a little different and how its operated as well.

[Steph21]

In any case, I also don't get my hopes up. It is quite nice to get the EF as a substitute though, it is not another american jet at least.

 

I feel exactly the same.

 

We already have the IRIS-T confirmed as our primary Fox2 weapon, so thats a non-american one already. The cockpit is going to be a little different and how its operated as well.

 

They teased the Meteor in some screenshots, another European weapon. Still not confirmed officially though.

Might also get some other MBDA weapons later on.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Steph21

[Hummingbird]

I believe we will get PIRATE as well, no reason why we wouldn't as I see it.

[bies]

No need to be salty about Rurofighter/Rafale comparition. Rafale was multirole, better in most aspects, but Eurofighter was designed as uncompromised air superiority. So EF may be better just in interception/dogfight than Rafale - due to EF lower wing loading, higher T/W ratio and different canards design - which is 20% of combat. But i'm interested in 80% in this 20% dogfight/air combat that's why EF is better for me.