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Eurofighter relative flight performance, feat. Gero Finke


Hummingbird

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HiAA= Hi Aspect Angle meaning you start the setup „neutral“ in a head on pass with no advantage for either side (at least if both maneuver correctly after the „fight is on“ call).

 

Of course I was also working hard - but I could still smile! :)

 

The liquid suit was called „Libelle“, but it lost out in a second campaign against the „normal“ air pressured system. I was the last that flew with the Libelle until it was shut down and removed from inventory many years ago. I liked it very much, especially for the fact that it produce zero arm pain or hematoma and did not need to pressure the lungs like the standard one. So overall a much „healthier“ system. But in centrifuge trials we had some blackouts by pilots wearing it, so it was deemed to be to dangerous and not reliable enough.

 

That's interesting Gero, I didn't actually know the Libelle suit had been dropped. I thought a modified version with a different name was in operational use today, with the US also adopting it for the F-22 fleet.

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Compared with?

#52

Since you apparently know the answer, what's the reason?

Maybe same reason, why it is flapsless?


Edited by HDpilot

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You are saying it has a higher landing AoA than the Hornet?

 

Where is the landing AoA specified for both under similar loadings?

F/A-18 ~8°

Typhoon ~13°

 

AoA doesn't vary a lot (if at all) due to weight.

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You are saying it has a higher landing AoA than the Hornet?

 

Where is the landing AoA specified for both under similar loadings?

 

Standard Typhoon AoA for landing is 13, standard landing AoA for Hornet is 8.1

 

Not the whole story, but it gives you an idea.

 

Edit: damn, too slow! :doh:

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High sweep/low aspect ratio wings have a flatter CL/Alpha curve, meaning they need more AoA to get a given CL value. the wing loading of the Typhoon reduces the Cl it needs, but in landing config a Hornet can generate a lot of Cl for very little alpha. low sweep angle, higher aspect ratio, full span LEF and TEF, high chord % TEF (compared to a Typhoon).

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Standard Typhoon AoA for landing is 13, standard landing AoA for Hornet is 8.1

 

Not the whole story, but it gives you an idea.

 

Edit: damn, too slow! :doh:

 

Yeah, so the biggest part of the explanation for that is the extremely high wing camber the Hornet generates with it's enormous slotted landing flaps drastically reducing the AoA needed for a certain Cl (critical AoA goes down as well). However as the airframe AoA needed goes down the chord line angle vs wind actually goes up = which is the effect of TE flaps.

 

frouch_cf-18_09.jpg

061019-N-7241L-002.jpg

aoa_dirty.png

 

 

 

 

By comparison the Typhoon, due to its very low wing loading, doesn't need to make use of any high lift devices for landing, and as such the relative landing AoA is going to be a little higher:

 

14519633953_5a32b3d7a4_b.jpg

raf-eurofighter-typhoon-landing-at-coningsby-FX15M4.jpg

 


Edited by Hummingbird
added a slightly more in depth explanation
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@-TITS-

 

Just curious, did you ever face the Rafale in training? And if so, how did you find it compared with the Typhoon in terms of inst. & sust. rate?

 

Note: Only asking as Rafale pilots apparently don't hold back from comparing the two, so I thought it would be good to hear an opinion from both sides, if possible.

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Dear Gero Finke,

 

In your first post you graded western 4 gen fighters and it's really interesting to read, but what can you say about any eastern assets? I suspect you could meet MiG-29 in training flights, can you describe your experience from this meeting it was? (also I would duplicate this question for Flanker family units, but as I remember they are not regular members of Red Flag (Indian AF for example), but maybe you heard something from your colleagues?? )

 

Best regards

 

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What? This sentence doesn't make any sense. Neither as a reply, nor as an explanation.

 

It makes sense, if you roughly consider the characteristic differences between trapezoid and delta wings

 

Standard Typhoon AoA for landing is 13, standard landing AoA for Hornet is 8.1

Is there a difference in min. landing speed?


Edited by HDpilot

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I'm seeing 130-140 for the Hornet based on weight and ~140 for the Typhoon (no weight listed)

 

 

Edit: read another article on the Tiffy that said Approach is above 135. So it may be reasonable to say at comparable landing conditions the Hornet is ~5kt slower. No surprise to me. Straight wing with tons of camber vs delta with very little camber.


Edited by Spurts
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@-TITS-

 

Just curious, did you ever face the Rafale in training? And if so, how did you find it compared with the Typhoon in terms of inst. & sust. rate?

 

Note: Only asking as Rafale pilots apparently don't hold back from comparing the two, so I thought it would be good to hear an opinion from both sides, if possible.

 

 

Unfortunately - no!

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-TITS-

 

Lead SME Eurofighter Typhoon

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Unfortunately - no!

 

Unfortunate indeed, would love to hear how these two compared from an EF pilot's POV.

 

That said, did you and Gero find it hard to outturn the Hornet in turns at low speed, or did the EF handily beat the Hornet here despite the AoA disadvantage?

 

Also is it correct that the EF's AoA limit is 24 deg?

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  • 1 month later...
@-TITS-

 

Just curious, did you ever face the Rafale in training? And if so, how did you find it compared with the Typhoon in terms of inst. & sust. rate?

 

Note: Only asking as Rafale pilots apparently don't hold back from comparing the two, so I thought it would be good to hear an opinion from both sides, if possible.

 

That specifically is for me "the million-dollar question".

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  • 1 month later...

@ - Gero Finke and or TITS:

 

Very Impressive stuff you did with the Typhoon but 2 questions:

 

What is the maximum speed and altitude you have reach with the Typhoon ?

 

Can typhoon go supersonic in a vertical climb (90 degrees nose up) like a space rocket ?

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6 hours ago, dontum said:

Can typhoon go supersonic in a vertical climb (90 degrees nose up) like a space rocket ?

 

I'm pretty sure other aircraft in DCS (e.g. the F-16) can do that already.

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  • 4 months later...

A question that popped up in my mind recently: Does the EF use a fixed (F-16 style) or dynamic (F/A-18 style) G limiter?

 

By that I mean, does the G limiter have fixed presets chosen by the pilots depending on load out & weight (ala F-16), or does the FLCS automatically govern the G limit based on registered stores & weight ala the F/A-18?

 

Something you know anything about @Spectre11?


Edited by Hummingbird
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/3/2021 at 9:15 AM, Hummingbird said:

A question that popped up in my mind recently: Does the EF use a fixed (F-16 style) or dynamic (F/A-18 style) G limiter?

 

By that I mean, does the G limiter have fixed presets chosen by the pilots depending on load out & weight (ala F-16), or does the FLCS automatically govern the G limit based on registered stores & weight ala the F/A-18?

 

Something you know anything about @Spectre11?

 

It's automatic like in the Hornet. 

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14 hours ago, Steph21 said:

It's automatic like in the Hornet. 

 

Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know it doesn't use a system with presets?

 

Also it would be interesting to know when 9 G is prohibited, i.e. is 9 G available with a 4x4 load out + full internal fuel etc ? According to some sources 9 G is available even with an external centerline tank.

 


Edited by Hummingbird
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At any rate we'll know once TG releases the EF, I'm just curious in regards to what I should expect FLCS wise. Not too keen about the F/A-18's quite handicapping dynamic limiter (~6.5 G w/ full internal + 4x4 AAM despite the official 7.5 G spec limit), but as I understand it (based on talking to some EF guys) the Typhoon is fully 9 G capable even with some very heavy loads, so I guess I don't have to worry about the FLCS limiting me like that in the Typhoon.

 

 


Edited by Hummingbird
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Load limits are dependent on various factors like A/C weight, CG, load limits og individual store stations etc. You have max limits and dependent on the fuel state, store symetries etc. you have limits which are closer or further away from the max. limit. 

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That is logical, the question is wether the FLCS automatically and dynamically restricts the pilot from exceeding these limits (ala F/A-18), or wether the pilot has to use presets like in for example the F-16 where CAT I, II & III are available.

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