Cold War 1947 - 1991 *** Limited Edition ***

[Alpenwolf]

Some observations from red (before we ran out of planes and I ran out of patience with DCS freezing on me) - with 20+ players all on comms, we really need multiple GCIs on separate channels to avoid comms overload. It was hard picking out my own calls and no doubt difficult for GCI to keep track of everyone as well as respond to requests.

...

+1

 

Blue had 6-8 GCI/CA operators for a total of 14 pilots while we had NELLUS (just one guy) doing GCI for a total of 24 pilots on 2 DIFFERENT frequencies!

That's insane!

Which is why 2 hours prior to the event I asked for help in that regard. Thankfully, NELLUS answered the call.

In the first two rounds I had to do GCI and ground warfare at the same time! Not very effective for either. We won one of the rounds though, but probably due to the fact that most players, especially Blue players, weren't really familiar with the mission.

I can only encourage more players to operate as GCI for exactly that reason. If no one or only 1 guy does it there's not much I can do. I was counting on Shadow to show up (I think one of the best Combined Arms players out there) but unfortunately he couldn't.

 

 

Some possible changes for round 5:

 

- 6-8 x Su-25T's with only 2 x slots available taking off from Damascus airbase for SEAD only.

- A very limited number of anti-radiation missiles, type Kh-25MPU only.

- No Kh-58U missiles.

- No Vikhr's for the Su-25T's.

- Their only role is to try and take out some of the Israeli Patriot systems. Nothing else!

- Instead of a total of 12 x MiG-21 slots, maybe 8 only and instead of 2 x F-14 slots, Red will have 4.

.

.

.

 

 

NOTE:

This change is obviously due to the fact that Red faced a well organised enemy on the Blue side. Very dedicated ground warfare and GCI operators. Seasoned F-15C pilots in PvP scenarios. A well thought plan of performing SEAD instantly before anything else, etc.

But what happens if I add all these changes and Blue gets random pilots mainly in round 5 not doing their job properly? And what if there will be no GCI or ground warfare operators for Blue next time? A total lopsided outcome of the battle in favour of Red, I guess. And that's the dilemma you'll always face if you try hard to balance out things symmetrically. Which is not the case in any of my missions as many of you know and I'm never in favour of that. But implementing these changes might be a slight push in that direction. Or am I exaggerating a bit?

[Brown Floyd]

+1

 

But what happens if I add all these changes and Blue gets random pilots mainly in round 5 not doing their job properly? And what if there will be no GCI or ground warfare operators for Blue next time? A total lopsided outcome of the battle in favour of Red, I guess. And that's the dilemma you'll always face if you try hard to balance out things symmetrically. Which is not the case in any of my missions as many of you know and I'm never in favour of that. But implementing these changes might be a slight push in that direction. Or am I exaggerating a bit?

 

I think the mission is pretty well-balanced as it is. One or two more Ka-50s airborne, another ground unit commander, some more coordination among the fighters, all the F-14 slots taken: any of those could have turned the tide towards Red.

 

But if the lack of Red SEAD is a problem, then maybe downgrade the Patriots to Hawk batteries instead of shoehorning the Su-25Ts into the mission. You could rationalize it by saying the Patriots have their hands full off-screen dealing with Scuds or something.

 

All in all, I had a great time today. Well worth waking up at 3 a.m. on a Sunday morning!

[QuiGon]

I was mainly flying Tigers and sometimes Fishbeds yesterday and had quite some fun, despite the difficult situation. Great mission once again :thumbup:

 

Some observations from red (before we ran out of planes and I ran out of patience with DCS freezing on me) - with 20+ players all on comms, we really need multiple GCIs on separate channels to avoid comms overload.

Indeed, from switching between F-5s and MiG-21s I noticed that 124 was pretty overloaded with comms indeed, while on 261 there was dead silence most of the time, which both made it difficult to fight effectively.

 

I can only encourage more players to operate as GCI for exactly that reason. If no one or only 1 guy does it there's not much I can do. I was counting on Shadow to show up (I think one of the best Combined Arms players out there) but unfortunately he couldn't.

I can't really help out with GCI, as I'm usually bringing my own flight of 3-4 players to the fight and GCIing while talking to my buddies on TS at the same time isn't really possible :(

I can help out with all other roles though, but it's sometimes difficult to see what asset is in special need at a given moment (unless you spectate for a while). It would be helpful if you (or any other player with a good overview) could write in chat from time to time what assets are in special need at the moment.

 

- 6-8 x Su-25T's with only 2 x slots available taking off from Damascus airbase for SEAD only.

- A very limited number of anti-radiation missiles, type Kh-25MPU only.

- No Kh-58U missiles.

- No Vikhr's for the Su-25T's.

- Their only role is to try and take out some of the Israeli Patriot systems. Nothing else!

Regarding SEAD I wasn't aware that we should take out their long range SAMs. I usually try to stick to the taskings in the briefing where this wasn't mentioned. If I would have known that we are allowed to, or even supposed to take out the enemy SAM coverage, I might have tried some sneaky low levep pop up strikes on the Patriot.

 

I was a bit suprised to see CBU-97s being available to Blue. This is quiet a modern weapon (2000+ AFAIK) and was devastating against our ground units.

I was also a bit suprised to see Phoenix being available. I thought they were supposed to be removed for this round. It was a good suprise though :D

[Tolovay]

You read my thoughts about adding su-25T only for sead. :thumbup:

 

Since it is not and will never be plausible to recreate an real lifescenario, the first thing is to equalize military equipment on both sides as much as possible. Number of players should than equally take slots so the number difference should vary as low as possible.

 

Next thing is, that we should have briefing on teamspeak or discord or wherever so people can group and do some tactic decisions before mission start. Now we give a shit to each other in the air.

 

SRS should become a must other vise kick.

 

As for helicopters. I was given many times to correct heading as i was detouring. Well, direct heading is suicide in this mission as there is very little canyons to hide in. It is better to detour and to hide. So you must let hilo pilots to do general direction, and not to micro guide until it enter the hot zone.

[ROSS_Pups]

sorry. missed this Saturday. work.

[Alpenwolf]

...

I can't really help out with GCI, as I'm usually bringing my own flight of 3-4 players to the fight and GCIing while talking to my buddies on TS at the same time isn't really possible :(

I can help out with all other roles though, but it's sometimes difficult to see what asset is in special need at a given moment (unless you spectate for a while). It would be helpful if you (or any other player with a good overview) could write in chat from time to time what assets are in special need at the moment.

...

But why? Why end up on another TS channel rather than joining everyone else on the server's TS? Almost every Blue player was on TS and SRS yesterday. Only 3-4 Red players were with me on TS. It's like that we're chitchatting all the time to the extent it becomes annoying. That's Discord! Not TS. Now you see why I'm never in favour of Discord. And you can disable your speakers and microphone on TS if you want. No one bothers you. No big deal. And after an event (or on a daily basis, after almost every mission) Red and Blue players end up being in one TS sub-channel (each side has 3 sub-channels) for debriefing. To me personally, it adds so much to the whole thing regarding the flown mission and see what went wrong or what the enemy was doing, what tactics they had, etc. It's always funny, also fun and you get to understand the mindset of some players even better. The atmosphere is so welcoming and one can actually learn a lot from some players. That guy is a former pilot, another is still active, another one is a Boeing pilot, someone else is a former tank commander, etc.

Everyone is using some different format to communicate with others. I could've done the same. Instead, I asked my friends of the 104th to give me a room on their TS so players have access to two different servers on one TS channel. Think about it. Imagine there's just one big TS channel with some sub-channels for quite some servers out there. You could then switch back and forth between the sub-channels depending on what server you're about to join. And there are some independent channels where players just meet and talk about things or whatever. That's the only reason why I didn't start my own TS channel. In fact, I had one for a couple of days and changed my mind for the above mentioned reason.

 

I did ask for Ka-50 coverage for our tanks in the chat window and on SRS. The chat window was full of messages every other second. Mainly players asking why there were no Tomcats nor Fulcrums at King Hussein Air College. Seriously?! No comment...

 

...

..., the first thing is to equalize military equipment on both sides as much as possible. Number of players should than equally take slots so the number difference should vary as low as possible.

...

That is so much NOT how I think or ever will approach designing a mission. I thought that was obvious after all those years :smilewink:

sorry. missed this Saturday. work.

My good old friends of the ROSS community. It would be great to have just one ROSS guy who would at least type in the chat what you guys are up to or even better communicate that on SRS so everyone knows. I know you do your thing and you have your own GCI and so on. No problem at all. And that helps the team nonetheless. However, it would do so even more if the rest of us at least knew what your intentions are :thumbup:

Edited October 11, 2020 by Alpenwolf

[Shadow KT]

I hope the next couple of rounds are during the week.

 

Regarding Quigon's comment ... It is a lot easier if you ask, instead of having to guess or waiting on already overloaded people to update every 5 minutes what's the situation.

 

Haven't played the last two iteration, but I would say that there is no need to further balance or change the scenario to compensate for the lack of skill in people or the lack of people in general. Keep it is as realistic as possible.

 

I don't mind having different groups bring their own GCI, would actually be better if you ask me... Only condition being that those people GCIing are available to talk to, as to have coordination. All the pilots can do their own comms, from the different groups.

[NELLUS]

+1

 

Blue had 6-8 GCI/CA operators for a total of 14 pilots while we had NELLUS (just one guy) doing GCI for a total of 24 pilots on 2 DIFFERENT frequencies!

That's insane!

Which is why 2 hours prior to the event I asked for help in that regard. Thankfully, NELLUS answered the call.

 

Only a pleasure!

 

Some screens below:

Edited October 11, 2020 by NELLUS

[Krog]

Hello Alpenwolf.

Hello Guys.

I was just an observer yesterday and watched the mission on Twitch on 3 streams at the same time.

Was very entertaining. Thanks to everyone involved!

 

After I also looked at TacView, I would say that the mission is roughly balanced. It is difficult to balance the skills of the pilots on each side with anything else.

 

The red side has a few points where it can improve. Some of them have already been mentioned: better communication among pilots and with GCI. F14 are ineffective despite phoenixes.

 

The reds, with the opportunities they had, have sold dearly.

I think if the blue side is less organized and experienced next time, there is a very good chance that they will lose.

[NELLUS]

Some possible changes for round 5:

 

- 6-8 x Su-25T's with only 2 x slots available taking off from Damascus airbase for SEAD only.

- A very limited number of anti-radiation missiles, type Kh-25MPU only.

- No Kh-58U missiles.

- No Vikhr's for the Su-25T's.

- Their only role is to try and take out some of the Israeli Patriot systems. Nothing else!

- Instead of a total of 12 x MiG-21 slots, maybe 8 only and instead of 2 x F-14 slots, Red will have.

 

Sounds great :thumbup:

 

Think the Phoenix missiles should be reduced so that the Tomcat is forced to get up close. The more planes that are circling above our venerable KA50’s the better.

 

T72’s instead of almost WW2 era T55 tanks?

[rossmum]

Tomcats getting close isn't the blessing it might sound like. A few days ago, three of us in MiGs smacked a pair of Tomcats that failed to disengage when their Sparrows missed... unless flown by exceptional pilots, the 14s are liable to get eaten alive by 15s, 16s, and 18s in close combat, especially due to the clunky radar and the fact that they were largely separated out from everyone else.

 

The problem with the Phoenix is that if you shoot it in STT, it's easy to defeat as soon as it leaves the rail. If you shoot it in TWS, you need to hope the other guy doesn't see the launch, because they'll just notch the contrail. The 54 is insanely easy to get away from with early response but almost impossible if you leave it until too late.

 

Ideally, you want your 29s and 14s separated just enough from the action that they don't get overwhelmed and end up with zero SA and surrounded by a mix of friendlies and enemies. Unfortunately this didn't happen due to various factors (including the Patriots - the entire Sea of Galilee was under blue's umbrella, so we had to stay relatively low or risk eating one of those things while engaged with the fighters).

 

The HARMs also had a huge impact, as without manual control or an IADS script, their targets never went radar silent and they were able to launch from an area where we couldn't effectively intercept them. I almost wonder if having someone in a tac commander slot to micro the radars wouldn't be a good idea.

[QuiGon]

But why? Why end up on another TS channel rather than joining everyone else on the server's TS?

Because I spend the night to fly with my buddies, shit talk to them and have a good time. That wouldn't be possible if we would be on a public TS channel with other players as it would disrupt their comms and be pretty annoying, especially when we don't speak enlgish. We're on SRS and available there for tactical comms.

 

 

I did ask for Ka-50 coverage for our tanks in the chat window and on SRS. The chat window was full of messages every other second. Mainly players asking why there were no Tomcats nor Fulcrums at King Hussein Air College. Seriously?! No comment...

Regarding Quigon's comment ... It is a lot easier if you ask, instead of having to guess or waiting on already overloaded people to update every 5 minutes what's the situation.

I didn't meant to do that every 5 minutes, but from time to time when there is a special need for a specific asset. It was just an idea, but apparently a bad one. Got it.

Edited October 12, 2020 by QuiGon

[Alpenwolf]

...

The HARMs also had a huge impact, as without manual control or an IADS script, their targets never went radar silent and they were able to launch from an area where we couldn't effectively intercept them. I almost wonder if having someone in a tac commander slot to micro the radars wouldn't be a good idea.

Basically, it comes down to what was said before; Red needs more GCI and ground operators. NELLUS providing GCI on 2 different frequencies for a total of 24 pilots can't end up well. Me controlling ca. 60 ground units is not just a ton load of work but you also lose your SA on the ground as your tanks get suddenly destroyed by the enemy's while in that moment driving or assigning routes to friendly units.

Again, Blue were down to 7 Merkavas "only", despite all the trouble we had on Red. And again, with another ground operator (Shadow couldn't so anyone else) I'm certain we would've won, especially after watching the tacview. It was actually really close which explains to me why the ground battles were so intense till the end.

After we lost the first Tor I drove the other one myself and survived for at least 2 hours or so. But after I left it to tend to Red tanks, it eas destroyed. So there you go. Lack of ground and GCI operators.

 

Because I spend the night to fly with my buddies, shit talk to them and have a good time. That wouldn't be possible if we would be on a public TS channel with other players as it would disrupt their comms and be pretty annoying, especially when we don't speak enlgish. We're on SRS and available there for tactical comms.

Understood. And I actually thought that would be the reason. No problem.

[QuiGon]

Another request: Can we have different frequencies for AI GCI and player GCI?

I have a hard time hearing the player GCI if AI GCI is talking over him. I'm curious, how do other players deal with that?

[Alpenwolf]

Another request: Can we have different frequencies for AI GCI and player GCI?

I have a hard time hearing the player GCI if AI GCI is talking over him. I'm curious, how do other players deal with that?

Try and lower the volume a bit using the volume knob of your radio system. Switching back and forth between human GCI freq. and the EWR's would become yet another issue for separating players in 2 different channels and cause less teamwork. Besides, sometimes the EWR "sees" things the human GCI doesn't and vice versa. So having both is actually a bonus. I personally lower the volume and it works for me. I'm kind of used to it now, I guess.

[Tolovay]

GCIs should be split equaly to both sides. There should be no democracy about that. Same goes for SRS. It should be mandatory as it is on 104th missions.

[_Firefly]

Another request: Can we have different frequencies for AI GCI and player GCI?

I have a hard time hearing the player GCI if AI GCI is talking over him. I'm curious, how do other players deal with that?

 

Alpen always uses the default channel ("0" in the MiG-21, 124 MHz) for human GCIs for the sake of simplicity. I like to turn down my in-game radio volume while keeping SRS and TS volume up.

 

IMHO the best way of solving this issue for Red would be to have multiple GCIs and ground unit commanders in a single TS channel and use separate SRS frequencies for different types of aircraft (e.g. one for MiG-21s, another for F-5s etc.). That way the GCIs could coordinate air and ground combat between themselves and relay relevant information to smaller numbers of pilots. The major weakness of this idea is that it would require the participation of multiple Red GCIs in every single mission. At JG-1 we have some people who could do GCI for us, but not every squadron has that luxury.

[QuiGon]

Try and lower the volume a bit using the volume knob of your radio system. Switching back and forth between human GCI freq. and the EWR's would become yet another issue for separating players in 2 different channels and cause less teamwork. Besides, sometimes the EWR "sees" things the human GCI doesn't and vice versa. So having both is actually a bonus. I personally lower the volume and it works for me. I'm kind of used to it now, I guess.

I see, I forgot I could just increase the main volume in SRS in addition to the actual radio volumes as the latter increases both, the SRS and the ingame radio volume :doh:

Still, I find it quite annoying to have both on the same freq. I see the AI GCI more of a backup, if there is no human GCI available and not using both simultaneously.

[Alpenwolf]

Look how easily it can be done:

... and especially when quite a number of players is online and using SRS while in addition to that EWR calls are harassing their ears, it takes one player to suggest that all MiG-21's should simply switch to channel 1 (or any other channel) and the human GCI should follow. The MiG-19 has 6 radio channels. Check out its frequencies in the mission editor and find out what channel matches the same freq. of what channel in the MiG-21.

Currently at work so I can't do that. So either one of you gets on the task to find that out or you wait for me to check it out tomorrow :smilewink:

[QuiGon]

Look how easily it can be done:

... and especially when quite a number of players is online and using SRS while in addition to that EWR calls are harassing their ears, it takes one player to suggest that all MiG-21's should simply switch to channel 1 (or any other channel) and the human GCI should follow. The MiG-19 has 6 radio channels. Check out its frequencies in the mission editor and find out what channel matches the same freq. of what channel in the MiG-21.

Currently at work so I can't do that. So either one of you gets on the task to find that out or you wait for me to check it out tomorrow :smilewink:

Here you go :)

[Alpenwolf]

Here you go :)

Cheers, mate!

[ViFF]

Hi !

 

Sorry late for the feedback for the IAF community, it was tons of fun on a very well built mission, the 104th guys are brilliant and an extremely good bunch to play alongside with and it was nice to win for a change :)

 

I've read everything and some good ideas are being discussed!

 

Just wanted to provide input from my side. On this round I played in the CA slots and changed to GCI role in the 2nd half of the mission when 104th_Tiger requested to switch with somebody so he could do some CA or flying or both :D

 

With regards to the CA slots some insights of mine to share:

 

1. Tactical Commander slots can change STATE & ROE from the F10 map, assign targets to AI assets (air and ground) and enter the vehicles as 1st person and drive around.

 

2. All sensor and LoS contacts are shared between all CA types of slots on the F10 map.

 

3. Changing the STATE of a ground unit group to GREEN will remove that group's shared sensor & Los contacts (if it was shared exclusively only from that specific group). So for ground units that don't radiate radar emissions like a tank or jeep or truck it shouldn't be touched. Only ROE to HOLD if you want to keep it hunkered down and hiding but still sharing its sensor and LoS contacts on the F10 map. The Radar SAMs however, you may want to change to GREEN as needed so that the radar will stop all emissions.

 

4. JTAC/Operator can not give any group orders from the F10 map (STATE, ROE, movement, artillery fire missions, AI aircraft intercept, etc) but can enter the vehicle as 1st person and can change the ROE of the group via the radio menu "F10 Other".

 

5. In case of ground unit groups that have more than one unit (which was not the case in this mission but anyways) it is possible to give movement orders to the group from 1st person by using the group control function "G" while in 1st person in any position of the ground unit.

 

6. Isometric view is very effective for close range fighting in urban areas. Zoom out and use Track IR to peek over the hill and around corners... Its just like having your very own infantry squad scouting ahead for you ;)

 

7. Lastly, if the person doing the role of GCI is doing only that and is not needed to intervene in the ground combat & movements (and in an event with 50+ clients it is a lot of BRA callouts & Bulls callouts work with the ruler tool all in parallel with very intense comms back and forth) there is no need for the person playing the role of GCI to be in a Tactical Commander Slot. The Observer slot shows everything the same as the Tactical Commander can see, just without the ability to give orders from the F10 map or enter vehicles as 1st person.

 

With regards to the F10 map its actually a bit gamey because the granularity and near real time update rate of the icons displayed is very high and unrealistic. You're easily calling out references to where the enemy is at very short range a-la "He's a couple of hundred meters behind and below you to your left 8' o'clock and he just fired a missile at you - flares now!!!". My hope for events with hard core enthusiasts like me is that GCI would be allowed only on LotATC (where the granularity and update rate produces a "merge" is at around 5 miles) and have all the airplanes "hidden" in the ME so that they don't show up on the F10 map for the CA slots.

 

Thank you again Alpenwolf for one of the best experiences in DCS!

 

Thank you 104th & Mike Delta for the fantastic mutual cooperation with the IAF. I hope we can do more of these in the future.

 

Thank you Reds showing up and for being brilliant flyers and ground commanders, it was very challenging!

 

Salute!

Edited October 14, 2020 by ViFF

[Alpenwolf]

Thanks for the feedback there, ViFF!

 

 

The reason why I put only 2 cmdr slots for each side is because I want to avoid having multiple operators assigning different waypoints for the same unit over and over again, which would result in chaos and delay. And that's especially the case when some random player joins a team and starts playing around before you figure out there's someone messing around with your ground units and he's not even on comms.

 

The observer slot allows you to see everything on both sides, hence the JTAC slot for GCI operatos.

 

How's the GCI operator going to see his planes if they're hidden on the map?

 

I've tried over and over again, and then again and then I gave it another shot but LotAtc for whatever reason isn't working on the server. It's becoming an annoying issue to me, although it's undoubtedly a great tool for GCI and I appreciate the work done there by the developer. I've got enough to deal with on the server and this tool is just adding more work and it seems to never flourish. I gave up on it, I guess.

[TOViper]

Hey Alpenwolf,

 

same as for the round before, I had so much fun with the mission! I flew one of the Tigers, which I love more and more.

 

Just a small war story from my side: I had a pivotal moment when disengaging after an engagement. I was following hills and some rough orientation marks on the ground west of lake Genezareth in an attempt of fleeing, before things would get difficult and blue would come over me. Briefly looking to my HSI I saw the value 270. I continued looking out and thought "f***... why 270, this can't be true!?!?!". I a few seconds later, deep in enemy territory, one of the blue pilots got me. :P

 

I will definitely join your upcoming events, I feel a special motivation for them.

Thank you for your efforts you put into this, please keep it up! :joystick:

 

Kind regards,

TOViper

[Alpenwolf]

Hey Alpenwolf,

...

Hey, TOViper,

 

I'm glad you're enjoying the server.

 

 

Fly safe!