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AGR Track


LastRifleRound

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I've seen it said that the Hornet has a sort of auto acquisition mode called AGR Track, wherein if you hover a reticle over a radar discernible target, it will track it.

 

I have documents on an early APG 65 that doesn't mention this at all, but that of course isn't this radar.

 

1. Does this capability actually exist for this Hornet?

2. If so, does anyone know how it's used? Perhaps if you're in AUTO with no designation with TDC to the HUD I could see this greatly improving the accuraxy of my visual runs using a workflow similar to the Harrier.

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From Wag's latest mini update...

 

Air-to-Ground Ranging (AGR) radar mode

 

Air-to-ground ranging (AGR) mode is an indirect radar mode—it is commanded automatically by the MC when deemed necessary and cannot be directly selected. Its purpose is to provide slant range to an aimpoint to allow a more precise calculation of altitude above target. When commanded, the AGR legend will appear on the HUD and the RDR ATTK format will display the AGR sub-format. If the radar was operating in MAP mode, it's possible to exit AGR mode and return to MAP by assigning TDC priority to the RDR ATTK format.

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From Wag's latest mini update...

 

Air-to-Ground Ranging (AGR) radar mode

 

Air-to-ground ranging (AGR) mode is an indirect radar mode—it is commanded automatically by the MC when deemed necessary and cannot be directly selected. Its purpose is to provide slant range to an aimpoint to allow a more precise calculation of altitude above target. When commanded, the AGR legend will appear on the HUD and the RDR ATTK format will display the AGR sub-format. If the radar was operating in MAP mode, it's possible to exit AGR mode and return to MAP by assigning TDC priority to the RDR ATTK format.

 

Right, I saw this and it wasn't mentioned, that's why I raise the question.

 

Sounds like you are talking about FTT or something, but I dont really know. AGR is just for ranging designations made with the HUD (in all AG modes mind you ;) ) or CCIP stuff.

 

It's kind of like that. I'll need to find some of the posts that reference it. I think I even asked the question in the wishlist page and it got hit with the [LATER IN EA] tag.

 

EDIT: Found one of the threads where this is mentioned: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=270906&highlight=agr


Edited by LastRifleRound
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It would be cool if, with no AGR available, aiming methods actually change their source of info, like it's modelled in the Viggen.

 

I wonder how different it is from the 16 since the 18 doesn't have DTS but I believe in the 16 the priority goes TGP laser ranging > AGR > DTS passive ranging > RALT > steerpoint elevation/bara altitude difference.

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I wonder how different it is from the 16 since the 18 doesn't have DTS but I believe in the 16 the priority goes TGP laser ranging > AGR > DTS passive ranging > RALT > steerpoint elevation/bara altitude difference.

 

I assume hornet will use the DTED to get 'range'

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I wonder how different it is from the 16 since the 18 doesn't have DTS but I believe in the 16 the priority goes TGP laser ranging > AGR > DTS passive ranging > RALT > steerpoint elevation/bara altitude difference.

 

Huh? Where did you get that? Hornet lot 20 has DTED or digital terrain elevation data. Just like the 16 and the a10 have DTSAS.

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So, I used AGR and noticed two things:

 

1) It makes absolutely no difference on the CCIP or GUN aiming pipper. One would think that reverting from AGR to DTED would induce some change on the pipper. So it seems that either we didn't actually get AGR and just got a DDI page that says AGR or that we have "AGR" all the time and it's always active regardless of what mode the radar is actually in, which again means that the DDI page is just there for show.

 

2) The AGR page displays Range in FT and something like Delta velocity, which always reads 0 knots. Any idea what this is supposed to be? Ownship speed? Wind speed? It doesn't change from 0 if I add wind to the mission.

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So, I used AGR and noticed two things:

 

1) It makes absolutely no difference on the CCIP or GUN aiming pipper. One would think that reverting from AGR to DTED would induce some change on the pipper. So it seems that either we didn't actually get AGR and just got a DDI page that says AGR or that we have "AGR" all the time and it's always active regardless of what mode the radar is actually in, which again means that the DDI page is just there for show.

 

2) The AGR page displays Range in FT and something like Delta velocity, which always reads 0 knots. Any idea what this is supposed to be? Ownship speed? Wind speed? It doesn't change from 0 if I add wind to the mission.

 

No, the whole AG role of the hornet was (still is in some areas) in a "cheat" state where despite core systems not being modeled the end result was the same. For example DTED and AGR were never simulated until AGR now, but CCIP was still possible. So it makes sense that once the systems become modeled the user sees no difference. Dozens of things in the hornet (and many other modules of course) are like this and will keep being as such until it is completed, otherwise nothing would work until it is.

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From Wags:

 

Air-to-Ground Ranging (AGR) radar mode

 

Air-to-ground ranging (AGR) mode is an indirect radar mode—it is commanded automatically by the MC when deemed necessary and cannot be directly selected. Its purpose is to provide slant range to an aimpoint to allow a more precise calculation of altitude above target. When commanded, the AGR legend will appear on the HUD and the RDR ATTK format will display the AGR sub-format. If the radar was operating in MAP mode, it's possible to exit AGR mode and return to MAP by assigning TDC priority to the RDR ATTK format.

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No, the whole AG role of the hornet was (still is in some areas) in a "cheat" state where despite core systems not being modeled the end result was the same. For example DTED and AGR were never simulated until AGR now, but CCIP was still possible. So it makes sense that once the systems become modeled the user sees no difference. Dozens of things in the hornet (and many other modules of course) are like this and will keep being as such until it is completed, otherwise nothing would work until it is.
Yeah, I understand that. So it seems that now, we have AGR active all the time anyway, without having to actually enter the mode by going SCS Fwd. Meaning the only thing that was added was the DDI page and the HOTAS command.

 

It'd be better to have it as a requirement now, instead of how it works at the moment. As in, since the other systems are not in, you'd have to use it or you don't get a firing solution. Or at least have it offer better accuracy when it's active, instead of when it's not.

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I've seen it said that the Hornet has a sort of auto acquisition mode called AGR Track, wherein if you hover a reticle over a radar discernible target, it will track it.

 

I have documents on an early APG 65 that doesn't mention this at all, but that of course isn't this radar.

 

1. Does this capability actually exist for this Hornet?

2. If so, does anyone know how it's used? Perhaps if you're in AUTO with no designation with TDC to the HUD I could see this greatly improving the accuraxy of my visual runs using a workflow similar to the Harrier.

 

 

You're talking about FTT (Fixed Target Track) and not AGR for target tracking.

 

 

AGR simply uses the radar to determine slant range from the HUD and CCIP (a bit like the Viggen does), instead of relying from baro alt/rad alt or a digital terrain database.

 

 

FTT on the other hand is a way to track an AG radar return. Simply sensor select toward you AG radar page when the TDC is already assigned to it, it will attempt a return lock on the point underneath the cursor or the currently designated nav-stab point.

 

 

The big difference between FTT and Nav-stabilized designation (what we had before) is that the FTT is actually a real return lock whereas the nav-stab one is simply a point in space determine to be where you put your cursor via the INS. The latter is therefore prone to INS drift, cannot follow a moving return and is prone to "misaligning the cursor with the target". The former (FTT) does require keeping the target in the radar FOV.

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So, I used AGR and noticed two things:

 

1) It makes absolutely no difference on the CCIP or GUN aiming pipper. One would think that reverting from AGR to DTED would induce some change on the pipper. So it seems that either we didn't actually get AGR and just got a DDI page that says AGR or that we have "AGR" all the time and it's always active regardless of what mode the radar is actually in, which again means that the DDI page is just there for show.

 

2) The AGR page displays Range in FT and something like Delta velocity, which always reads 0 knots. Any idea what this is supposed to be? Ownship speed? Wind speed? It doesn't change from 0 if I add wind to the mission.

 

I have no idea what this speed thing is. If we had auto acquisition feature then I could 'speculate' perhaps tgt. speed (moving tgt) but we don't have this feature.

 

In the other sim AGR page on DDI sowed range in feet (max around 10nm) and altitude. To exit AGR you would either press AGR on DDI or un-designate.

 

Without A/G gun auto acquisition the current AGR implementation is kinda useless for me...

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You're talking about FTT (Fixed Target Track) and not AGR for target tracking.

 

 

AGR simply uses the radar to determine slant range from the HUD and CCIP (a bit like the Viggen does), instead of relying from baro alt/rad alt or a digital terrain database.

 

 

FTT on the other hand is a way to track an AG radar return. Simply sensor select toward you AG radar page when the TDC is already assigned to it, it will attempt a return lock on the point underneath the cursor or the currently designated nav-stab point.

 

 

The big difference between FTT and Nav-stabilized designation (what we had before) is that the FTT is actually a real return lock whereas the nav-stab one is simply a point in space determine to be where you put your cursor via the INS. The latter is therefore prone to INS drift, cannot follow a moving return and is prone to "misaligning the cursor with the target". The former (FTT) does require keeping the target in the radar FOV.

 

No, it's not. See post from gripes.

 

Also, I have discovered FTT does nothing also. There is no difference in the sim from FTT and nav stabilized locks. FTT should need a radar return and should "wander" between buildings that are somewhat close to the area commanded. For now, it just says FTT and keeps the designation exactly where you had it.

 

I'll make a separate thread about FTT to avoid derailing this one.


Edited by LastRifleRound
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So, I used AGR and noticed two things:

 

1) It makes absolutely no difference on the CCIP or GUN aiming pipper. One would think that reverting from AGR to DTED would induce some change on the pipper. So it seems that either we didn't actually get AGR and just got a DDI page that says AGR or that we have "AGR" all the time and it's always active regardless of what mode the radar is actually in, which again means that the DDI page is just there for show.

 

2) The AGR page displays Range in FT and something like Delta velocity, which always reads 0 knots. Any idea what this is supposed to be? Ownship speed? Wind speed? It doesn't change from 0 if I add wind to the mission.

 

Right now, only Viggen models the different "pecularities" of degraded bombing modes. Being honest, it shouldn't be a big change between AGR assisted and DTED assisted CCIP/AUTO, and more degraded modes like ralt, baro etc. are probably very rarely used, so the usefulness in game is doubtful compared with the pain of implementing them, but it would be a nice addition for sure.



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1) It makes absolutely no difference on the CCIP or GUN aiming pipper. One would think that reverting from AGR to DTED would induce some change on the pipper. So it seems that either we didn't actually get AGR and just got a DDI page that says AGR or that we have "AGR" all the time and it's always active regardless of what mode the radar is actually in, which again means that the DDI page is just there for show.

That's really disappointing to hear :(

I hope ED will bring this to the same level as it is in the Viggen, so that the target altitude source (AGR, DTED, Baro) actually matters.

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So I don't understand something: Wags said that AGR isn't something you can access rather it is automatically done by MC if needed. I am seeing people talking about SCS FWD command. Where do they/you get that from? How did you know that command does that?

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So I don't understand something: Wags said that AGR isn't something you can access rather it is automatically done by MC if needed. I am seeing people talking about SCS FWD command. Where do they/you get that from? How did you know that command does that?

 

We know it does, because when you go into DCS. It does that.

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So I don't understand something: Wags said that AGR isn't something you can access rather it is automatically done by MC if needed. I am seeing people talking about SCS FWD command. Where do they/you get that from? How did you know that command does that?

 

I think Wags meant is that you can't select it from the format page and its only available with certain parameters such as TDC to the HUD + CCIP, or TDC to the HUD AUTO with no target designated. Doing one of those selects AGR for you, therefore it is indirectly selected.

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I think Wags meant is that you can't select it from the format page and its only available with certain parameters such as TDC to the HUD + CCIP, or TDC to the HUD AUTO with no target designated. Doing one of those selects AGR for you, therefore it is indirectly selected.

 

Roger.

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Did some researching and discovered a few things about AGR:

 

1. It definitely does SOMETHING. Take your hornet for a spin in the mountains (Cacuses). Point ccip cross on mountain, THEN SCS up. The reticle will shift.

 

2. The velocity delta in the format is the difference in the radar calculated aircraft velocity and the INS. If you have velocity errors in the INS, this is one method you could find them. I don't know if you can 'force' velocity errors in the INS, but if you could, this would show some non-zero value. PVU's I know are generally less accurate than the general accuracy of a coupled INS, so it makes sense for all of us so far, this number is 0.


Edited by LastRifleRound
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Did some researching and discovered a few things about AGR:

 

1. It definitely does SOMETHING. Take your hornet for a spin in the mountains (Cacuses). Point ccip cross on mountain, THEN SCS up. The reticle will shift.

 

2. The velocity delta in the format is the difference in the radar calculated aircraft velocity and the INS. If you have velocity errors in the INS, this is one method you could find them. I don't know if you can 'force' velocity errors in the INS, but if you could, this would show some non-zero value. PVU's I know are generally less accurate than the general accuracy of a coupled INS, so it makes sense for all of us so far, this number is 0.

 

Sounds good, will re-deploy to Caucasus and try to force the 'error':)

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