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Honey, I developed FFB joystick (DIY)


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56 minutes ago, propeler said:

Do not hurry! I prety sure that I know what the gimbal inside of it and I can say that it has one serios drawback. That type of gimbal when made from plastic simply can not be done stiff and rigid enouhg to handle high torque. Experiments of other guys here in the topic and my experience showed it. Thats why this

That type of gimbal works perfectly fine for the forces applied in this application. Of course if one wants 20kgf, you might skip the Rhino and build a DYI machine. But as a compact Brunner alternative it works perfectly fine.  

Disclaimer: while the gimbal might look similar to yours, I have it redesigned from scratch.

IMG_20220327_191550.jpg

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Just now, walmis said:

while the gimbal might look similar to yours, I have it redesigned from scratch

Don't mind, I do not have questions to you, I simply let people know that this kind of gimbal (let's call it 'microsoft sidewinder style') made in plastic is not rock solid. Gimbal printed in SLS with extremely strong PA12 plastic with 100% fill rate at 5kg force at stick handle, eats more than 15% of motion range with flex.  So people should take it into account.

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6 hours ago, propeler said:

Do not hurry! I prety sure that I know what the gimbal inside of it and I can say that it has one serios drawback. That type of gimbal when made from plastic simply can not be done stiff and rigid enouhg to handle high torque. Experiments of other guys here in the topic and my experience showed it. Thats why thisezgif.com-gif-maker.gif.80f06ead2ccada7fc90faadbb6e24ac8.gif:

was turned into this:

20220327_225148.jpg

 

 

Well that is interesting 

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On 4/25/2022 at 4:10 AM, propeler said:

Do not hurry! I prety sure that I know what the gimbal inside of it and I can say that it has one serios drawback. That type of gimbal when made from plastic simply can not be done stiff and rigid enouhg to handle high torque. Experiments of other guys here in the topic and my experience showed it. Thats why thisezgif.com-gif-maker.gif.80f06ead2ccada7fc90faadbb6e24ac8.gif:

was turned into this:

20220327_225148.jpg

 

 

I get what you are saying, I think any forces that can cause the printed gimbal to fail are beyond what is reasonably safe for a "game controller"

I mean we aren't trying to build hand crushing device.

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Some updates. From my experience and wishes of real pilots to have more power on the stick so I choose another  solution.  

Frist - already existing, powerfull and proven by time  board as the controller - ODrive coupled with incremental encoder. I wrote custom firmware for it so no need to have a 'tree' of separate boards. You only need to flesh ODrive with custom firmware, and  that's all. As the bonus - posibility to use virtually any BLDC motor that does not come out of ODrive power restrictions. 

Second - metal as the main material for the gimbal.  

As the result variant with motors from hoverboard gives 5kg force(with 10A power source) on the full sized ground mounted flight post. But with more powerfull PSU it definitely capable of handling significantly higher force. 

Firmware supports not only standard FFB effects but augmentation with effects based on DCS telemetry - force is affected by speed, G, angle of attack and thrust of motor( and yes, it is possible to use the same augmentation for rudder pedals as well even considering that DCS does not provide effects for rudder axis)

20220429_193129.jpg

20220502_120011.jpg

20220502_115911.jpg  image.png

So, for those who wants something more powerfull - you are welcome :)

 

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7 hours ago, propeler said:

Some updates. From my experience and wishes of real pilots to have more power on the stick so I choose another  solution.  

Frist - already existing, powerfull and proven by time  board as the controller - ODrive coupled with incremental encoder. I wrote custom firmware for it so no need to have a 'tree' of separate boards. You only need to flesh ODrive with custom firmware, and  that's all. As the bonus - posibility to use virtually any BLDC motor that does not come out of ODrive power restrictions. 

Second - metal as the main material for the gimbal.  

As the result variant with motors from hoverboard gives 5kg force(with 10A power source) on the full sized ground mounted flight post. But with more powerfull PSU it definitely capable of handling significantly higher force. 

Firmware supports not only standard FFB effects but augmentation with effects based on DCS telemetry - force is affected by speed, G, angle of attack and thrust of motor( and yes, it is possible to use the same augmentation for rudder pedals as well even considering that DCS does not provide effects for rudder axis)

20220429_193129.jpg

20220502_120011.jpg

20220502_115911.jpg  image.png

So, for those who wants something more powerfull - you are welcome :)

 

Are there plans to make this a full completed unit for purchase? or just public files.

 

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10 hours ago, propeler said:

Some updates. From my experience and wishes of real pilots to have more power on the stick so I choose another  solution.  

Frist - already existing, powerfull and proven by time  board as the controller - ODrive coupled with incremental encoder. I wrote custom firmware for it so no need to have a 'tree' of separate boards. You only need to flesh ODrive with custom firmware, and  that's all. As the bonus - posibility to use virtually any BLDC motor that does not come out of ODrive power restrictions. 

Second - metal as the main material for the gimbal.  

As the result variant with motors from hoverboard gives 5kg force(with 10A power source) on the full sized ground mounted flight post. But with more powerfull PSU it definitely capable of handling significantly higher force. 

Firmware supports not only standard FFB effects but augmentation with effects based on DCS telemetry - force is affected by speed, G, angle of attack and thrust of motor( and yes, it is possible to use the same augmentation for rudder pedals as well even considering that DCS does not provide effects for rudder axis)

 

 

So, for those who wants something more powerfull - you are welcome :)

 

Good stuff, just don't forget one important piece for such high powered equipment 🙂

Emergency stop push button 22mm 1NO 1NC 500V 10A with locking mushroom 40mm  - Cablematic

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17 hours ago, Skopro_PL said:

Are there plans to make this a full completed unit for purchase? or just public files.

Both variants will be possible. But will depend on logistics. I need to check if will be possible to ship outside the Europe.


Edited by propeler
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Propeler, that's very cool that you integrated telemetry from dcs! 

Do you think, that you will integrate also telemetry from fs2020 and Condor? 

And did you try your stick with fs2020 and XPforce? 

I did a test with dcs based telemetry effects on the pitch axis on my collective driven by an ac motor some time ago. And despite my ac motor controller is only able to use position Mode I was really happy with the effects which were washed by the springs to simulate torque mode. 

So being able to mix telemetry and ffb effects should be brillant. 

 

 

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First Rhino spotted in the wild... And i let it into my home. 🙂 Can't tell you how happy i am. Amazing times, to see what one guy can achieve. Next steps are helping @walmis to smooth out the fine details, and testing testing testing...IMG_20220513_183327.jpg

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i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Had one of my best weekends since the release of DCS: Blackshark. Ladies and Gentleman, we have our Brunner Killer. The Rhino is not just an plug&play FFB base, it's also one of the best joystick bases i ever had. I will go into detail in the future...

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i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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On 11/19/2021 at 12:51 AM, theperson said:

I'm starting a build of one of these using a resin printer. Using siraya blu/tenacious mix.

The frame arm needed some small modifications to get it to print. Once I have it all together and I trust the strength/dimensions of the print I'll post my modified/supported stls.

Planning on using an odrive, 6354-60kv motors with as5048a encoders.

 

20211118_162902.jpg

frame arm change.png

pulley pic.png

 

Any chance you could release those modified files? I'm at the stage where I'm ready to print out the gimbal.

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So, my first week with the Rhino is over and i can try to write about my experience. I really have to watch out, to not write a complete book about all the thoughts that are going through my mind about this incredible device. I will try to keep it as short as possible. 🙂
At the beginning of the week i was working as close as possible with Walmis, to help him integrating my version of the Virpil MongoosT-50CM2 grip. We both learned a lot 😉 Virpil seems to have made a lot of "silent" iterations of this single piece of hardware. On tuesday he reached 100% support and the Rhino's firmware and software also got a huge
versatility upgrade for calibration and configuration possibilities...
To sum things up and hopefully answer most of the questions you might have, here is a compiled feature list of things i've seen, tested and talked about with Walmis:

VPforce Rhino base and VPforce DIY kits

Software part:

• Plug-and-play support in Windows 10 - no drivers needed
• Fully implemented USB PID and native DirectInput FFB support
• Very easy to use configuration via "VPforce FFB Configurator" software
• Very easy to use firmware update procedure via WebUSB technology
• Wide range of fully adjustable parameters for personal preference
• Multiple options for intensity settings for the multi-function knob
• Set it and forget it - settings will be directly stored into the firmware
• FFB games: automatic detection
• Non-FFB games: automatic centering-spring emulation mode
• More features coming up through continuous firmware and software development

Hardware part:

• Powerful force feedback servo motors
• Up to 9 Nm peak torque on the stick
• Contactless high-resolution position sensors integrated into the motors
• Multi-function knob to tune force intensities during runtime
• Emergency stop button
• Compatible with Thrustmaster HOTAS grips, Virpil, ... (more in development)
• Optional 19V 9.5A 180W power supply included
• Support for a wide range of power supplies (laptop bricks: 18-24V >7A)
• Active cooling, no force reduction at constant high load operation

Currently in development:

• adapter for WinWing grips
• Support for external sources of FFB effects (e.g. DCS telemetry outputs)

Now back to the user/buyer's perspective:

First, it's incredibly easy to install. Mount your grip, plug everything in, turn the emergency stop button and you are ready to go. Start up the configuration tool, check if axis calibration is needed, check your grip type and send and store everything to the firmware. (Check the image)
From there you are free to leave the configurator app open, to keep an eye on the device's telemetry or just close it and maybe never need to open it again. Same goes for the WebUSB firmware management tool... It truly is - set it and forget it. (Of course you will go and use them again, there will be a lot of new features coming in the future) 😉

Second, start up DCS, make sure FFB is checked in the options and also check special options for FFB trimming type for helicopters and/or stick position settings
in modules like the A10C, F5E, F-14 ...

Third, check your bindings and axis settings for the module you want to fly or jump into the module and do the setup "on the fly" 🙂 In DCS you can also set FFB strength for each module and personal preference (trim and additional effects).

At this point, your DCS pilot experience will change. Depending on your standard spring-centered or FFB stick experience in the past. A first timer, non-FFB user will be simply blown away. I can only try to remember how it felt the first time, i already had FFB since Blackshark. Especially helicopters and trimming will be on another level, those good old WWII planes and more modern fighter jets will start talking back to you! No matter what joystick base you may have had in your past, you'll also notice the huge boost in precision and fine control.
A FFB user on the other side, with Brunner - Microsoft - Logitech experience like me, for up to 20 years, will basically feel like getting kicked into the future. The streamlined software functionality, the precision and the power - simply awesome. Welcome to the year 2022!

 

RhinoSettings.jpg

WebUSB.jpg


Edited by RealDCSpilot
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i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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I forgot to mention that i really like that the housing is made of wood. Overall, the processing of the unit as a whole, is made with love and high level craftmanship.

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i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/21/2022 at 6:16 PM, RealDCSpilot said:

So, my first week with the Rhino is over and i can try to write about my experience. I really have to watch out, to not write a complete book about all the thoughts that are going through my mind about this incredible device. I will try to keep it as short as possible. 🙂
At the beginning of the week i was working as close as possible with Walmis, to help him integrating my version of the Virpil MongoosT-50CM2 grip. We both learned a lot 😉 Virpil seems to have made a lot of "silent" iterations of this single piece of hardware. On tuesday he reached 100% support and the Rhino's firmware and software also got a huge
versatility upgrade for calibration and configuration possibilities...
To sum things up and hopefully answer most of the questions you might have, here is a compiled feature list of things i've seen, tested and talked about with Walmis:

VPforce Rhino base and VPforce DIY kits

Software part:

• Plug-and-play support in Windows 10 - no drivers needed
• Fully implemented USB PID and native DirectInput FFB support
• Very easy to use configuration via "VPforce FFB Configurator" software
• Very easy to use firmware update procedure via WebUSB technology
• Wide range of fully adjustable parameters for personal preference
• Multiple options for intensity settings for the multi-function knob
• Set it and forget it - settings will be directly stored into the firmware
• FFB games: automatic detection
• Non-FFB games: automatic centering-spring emulation mode
• More features coming up through continuous firmware and software development

Hardware part:

• Powerful force feedback servo motors
• Up to 5 Nm peak torque on the stick
• Contactless high-resolution position sensors integrated into the motors
• Multi-function knob to tune force intensities during runtime
• Emergency stop button
• Compatible with Thrustmaster HOTAS grips, Virpil, ... (more in development)
• Optional 19V 9.5A 180W power supply included
• Support for a wide range of power supplies (laptop bricks: 18-24V >7A)
• Active cooling, no force reduction at constant high load operation

Currently in development:

• adapter for WinWing grips
• Support for external sources of FFB effects (e.g. DCS telemetry outputs)

Now back to the user/buyer's perspective:

First, it's incredibly easy to install. Mount your grip, plug everything in, turn the emergency stop button and you are ready to go. Start up the configuration tool, check if axis calibration is needed, check your grip type and send and store everything to the firmware. (Check the image)
From there you are free to leave the configurator app open, to keep an eye on the device's telemetry or just close it and maybe never need to open it again. Same goes for the WebUSB firmware management tool... It truly is - set it and forget it. (Of course you will go and use them again, there will be a lot of new features coming in the future) 😉

Second, start up DCS, make sure FFB is checked in the options and also check special options for FFB trimming type for helicopters and/or stick position settings
in modules like the A10C, F5E, F-14 ...

Third, check your bindings and axis settings for the module you want to fly or jump into the module and do the setup "on the fly" 🙂 In DCS you can also set FFB strength for each module and personal preference (trim and additional effects).

At this point, your DCS pilot experience will change. Depending on your standard spring-centered or FFB stick experience in the past. A first timer, non-FFB user will be simply blown away. I can only try to remember how it felt the first time, i already had FFB since Blackshark. Especially helicopters and trimming will be on another level, those good old WWII planes and more modern fighter jets will start talking back to you! No matter what joystick base you may have had in your past, you'll also notice the huge boost in precision and fine control.
A FFB user on the other side, with Brunner - Microsoft - Logitech experience like me, for up to 20 years, will basically feel like getting kicked into the future. The streamlined software functionality, the precision and the power - simply awesome. Welcome to the year 2022!

 

RhinoSettings.jpg

WebUSB.jpg

 

Do you have videos of the Rhino in action?

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On 5/21/2022 at 5:16 PM, RealDCSpilot said:

A FFB user on the other side, with Brunner - Microsoft - Logitech experience like me, for up to 20 years, will basically feel like getting kicked into the future. The streamlined software functionality, the precision and the power - simply awesome. Welcome to the year 2022!

 

 

Could you elaborate on the advantage of the Rhino compared to the Brunner? 

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5 hours ago, horus-DCS said:

Could you elaborate on the advantage of the Rhino compared to the Brunner? 

Hi, I can jump in here🙂

So a couple of advantages of the top of my head:

  • Rhino is plug-and-play DirectInput, so no additional software is required for it to run on FFB supported games.
  • Rhino has bigger motors and much higher gear reduction - much more torque
  • Bigger motors with active cooling don't overheat in normal use cases.
  • Price

Here's a video showing versatility of the system in action, showing a mechanical implementation of the Rhino DIY motor kit for a custom cyclic from one of my first clients 🙂 

 


Edited by walmis
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