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Understanding the A10C HOTAS is like learning to configure Windows 95


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Please forgive me, I am a noob. I am sure there is a logic to the way Fairchild decided to set up the HOTAS, I am just not getting it. The key operations on the DMS, TMS, China Hat, and Boat switch seem to be arbitrarily segregated but perhaps that has to do with the fact that humans only have two hands and certain activities require multiple inputs - hence the need to separate inputs for a given activity to both hands.

 

But the specific issues that are confusing me have to do with the different ways there are to get the same thing done. For example, TMS right makes a mark point (with any sensor), and TMS right long turns that into a SPI. Yet there is another function, China Hat forward long, that slaves all sensors to SPI. Yes I understand that I have 5 sensors-HMCS,TAD, TGP, HUD,MAV, AA. But the issue is I have only one focus in my brain. If I am dealing with ONE SPI (by default the A10 only gives you one), it can be confusing to have different sensors looking at different things.

 

This issue has been the source of confusion resulting in many threads here. For example, people have noted that different objects can be 'hooked' with different sensors. And that hooked data is different with different sensors. If I can hook only one thing at a time, then how is that different than a SPI?

 

But even consider the whole idea of hooking things.

TMS forward short hooks under the TAD and the HMCS. What does hooking do for me? why not just deposit a mark?

 

Then besides hooking/marking, there is the idea of 'slaving' - basically deciding when to collapse any two interfaces on to the same data point. For example, TMS right long slaves the particular SOI to HMCS. Is it the HMCS box or Is it the HMCS cross? (except for AA,TAD and HUD-when these are SOI, it's the TGP that gets slaved to HMCS) What? If TAD is SOI , why do I want to be messing with slaving the TGP to HMCS? Then of course we have the universal 'Slave ALL' - China Hat forward long, but slave only the TGP to SPI is China Hat Aft LONG. What? If I can slave all to the SPI (which I imagine is what you do when lining up an attack), why would I EVER want to ONLY slave the TARGETTING POD to the SPI? Am I going to be looking elsewhere? Are my bombs going elsewhere? Are my mavericks going elsewhere?

 

And this business of doing bomb dropping by dealing with the HUD is an exercise in information overload. I have to intentionally ignore my driving cues (direction, altitude, TVV, velocity, AOA) and focus on the bombs behavior. Then I have to switch my brain from bombing to flying. It would be safer to have a kinesthetic domain where my brain would know-looking out the front windshield is for driving, looking down at the right MFCD is for weapon targetting. The whole bomb thing could happen on the MFCD. Plus the fact that the MFCD is showing bombing cues makes the HUD cleaner-I dont have to have little characters telling me which weapon I have enabled. I just look down at the MFCD-if it's a bomb, I see the ASL, if it's a Mav I see Mav video. Guns and rockets are still too stupid to do their own thing so I guess those cues still have to pop up in the HUD when I use them so I can point the whole aircraft where I wanted them to go. Can you imagine, I have point the whole massive aircraft a certain way to deploy a little weapon? But all the other data about the rocket, the sidewinder or the bullets (from the DSMS for example) can be on the MFCD and that reminds me which weapon I am using. In fact the Left MFCD can be devoted to Navigation and long distance targets. My brain then knows - look on the left panel for far things and on the right MFCD for near things.

 

Speaking of which, why do sidewinders only point forward? If I can make a raspberry pi recognize my face, cant they put one in the head of a sidewinder with a camera and point that thing backwards? Sure is better than throwing little pieces of aluminum foil at somebody chasing you with a missile aiming at your tailpipe. When I am in a hog, I haven't got a chance even against a Spitfire or a BF109 on my six. It doesn't even have to be a sidewinder with a motor. It can be a little metal dart with moveable fins. It gets released from the A10's ass, the camera looks backward to see the target, and the fins are moved to keep the camera's view centered on target. As the dart slows down do to air drag, the attacker runs into it.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a single database and then have the different 'sensors' actually just be different UIs for the same data? For example, on the TAD I am looking at maps and distances and far away stuff. On the HUD I am looking at where the aircraft is going, on the HMCS I am looking elsewhere nearby (not where the aircraft is going), on the Maverick I am looking at where the missile is going. On the TGP I am looking at where the pod is looking.

 

Sorry for the long post. Perhaps an engineer from Fairchild, NASA, Grumman, Boing, Northrop or Lockheed can share some stories of how the A10 UI got to be how it is. Yes I know, no use whining, just learn the way it is. But if I can flesh out what scenarios lead to the current design choices, then I could use the HOTAS the way it was intended.

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Pretty funny. I think it’s pretty genius, even though having 6 different ways to do one thing is pretty over whelming. I’m pretty sure you can blame Lockheed specifically as the prime contractor for the C upgrade https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/129371/a-10-upgrade-effort-transforms-warthog-capabilities/

 

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Speaking of which, why do sidewinders only point forward? If I can make a raspberry pi recognize my face, cant they put one in the head of a sidewinder with a camera and point that thing backwards? Sure is better than throwing little pieces of aluminum foil at somebody chasing you with a missile aiming at your tailpipe. When I am in a hog, I haven't got a chance even against a Spitfire or a BF109 on my six. It doesn't even have to be a sidewinder with a motor. It can be a little metal dart with moveable fins. It gets released from the A10's ass, the camera looks backward to see the target, and the fins are moved to keep the camera's view centered on target. As the dart slows down do to air drag, the attacker runs into it.

 

SU-27 does have backwards installed R-77 variant but that is just about only rearwards firing missile system. These days you already have off-boresight missiles and getting into situation where you are surprised by fighter on your six should never happen on the battlefield, hence most of the time rear firing A2A missile would be useless, especially sidewinder as you would be dodging something more medium range way before you have time to fire a short range missile.

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As your post suggests, rearward firing weapons would have to initially cope with travelling at -250 knots at release before having to accelerate to a positive velocity. Challenging ... but there are some clever people out there! I'm not sure that hoping your attacker will fly into your "passive" weapons would work ;)

 

A10's are never really expected to engage air targets. That's what CAP is. Sidewinders were only fitted as a last ditch defence in case a lone wolf manages to get past. Your chances of winning that one are not good.

 

I'm not a hog driver IRL but I understand the HOTAS is well though of. I suspect the variety of different methods reflects an airplane with a long history undergoing many systems upgrades.

 

Your next generation aircraft have a good deal more systems integration.

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/573565/ ... might help

 

Also, check out the A10 episode of The Fighter Pilot Podcast

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I think the OP needs to temper his expectations just a bit.

 

Nobody just jumps into an A-10 (or any combat aircraft) and instantly becomes Ace Of The Base.

 

Get on YouTube and start watching Bunyap Sims “On The Range” series. They were made in Hog-1 but 90% of the tips and techniques will translate to Hog-2.

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SU-27 does have backwards installed R-77 variant but that is just about only rearwards firing missile system. These days you already have off-boresight missiles and getting into situation where you are surprised by fighter on your six should never happen on the battlefield, hence most of the time rear firing A2A missile would be useless, especially sidewinder as you would be dodging something more medium range way before you have time to fire a short range missile.

 

Also rear firing missiles face an interesting problem as they have to accelerate through 0 velocity and near that area they have zero control with conventional control surfaces. Experimentation has been done with thrust vectoring but it seems to not be that big of a priority, for some reasons yo mentioned.

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I absolutely love A-10C's hotas system, it's by far the most intuitive and the most capable system in whole DCS. Even bodged HMS feels natural.

 

I tend to agree. A-10C was my first module to learn so that may be part of it. Switching over to the F/A-18 and F-16 has been weird and they don't make much sense to me at times.

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I tend to agree. A-10C was my first module to learn so that may be part of it. Switching over to the F/A-18 and F-16 has been weird and they don't make much sense to me at times.

 

I think the Viper is very Hog-esque in its HOTAS.

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@Meyomyx thanks for that. I have a couple from the manual printed out. I updated the one you pointed me too to include the HMCS and have it next to me.

 

But more to the point, There is a funny British guy(?) who made a bunch of 1 minute youtuube videos. These are activity based and allow me to learn the choreographed sequences needed for each specific activity. I have watched them so many times I now remember the crazy analogies he uses (hookers, sheep, etc) Now in the plane, those images haunt me.

 

I suspect the two people who posted that they love the A10 HOTAS have been at it a LONG time. In fact they have the earliest dates of joining this forum.

 

I agree. Like a pair of well worn shoes, there is comfort in automatic (even if idiosyncratic ) reflexive behaviors.

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I think the Viper is very Hog-esque in its HOTAS.

 

It could be. I've started learning the Viper a bit but I have a long ways to go. In my initial impressions it seemed quite a bit different but as I get into it more it may make more sense. Your comment gives me hope, at least!

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It could be. I've started learning the Viper a bit but I have a long ways to go. In my initial impressions it seemed quite a bit different but as I get into it more it may make more sense. Your comment gives me hope, at least!

 

Viper, IMO, will be far more intuitive than the Hornet.

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Please forgive me, I am a noob. I am sure there is a logic to the way Fairchild decided to set up the HOTAS, I am just not getting it. The key operations on the DMS, TMS, China Hat, and Boat switch seem to be arbitrarily segregated but perhaps that has to do with the fact that humans only have two hands and certain activities require multiple inputs - hence the need to separate inputs for a given activity to both hands.

 

But the specific issues that are confusing me have to do with the different ways there are to get the same thing done. For example, TMS right makes a mark point (with any sensor), and TMS right long turns that into a SPI. Yet there is another function, China Hat forward long, that slaves all sensors to SPI. Yes I understand that I have 5 sensors-HMCS,TAD, TGP, HUD,MAV, AA. But the issue is I have only one focus in my brain. If I am dealing with ONE SPI (by default the A10 only gives you one), it can be confusing to have different sensors looking at different things.

 

This issue has been the source of confusion resulting in many threads here. For example, people have noted that different objects can be 'hooked' with different sensors. And that hooked data is different with different sensors. If I can hook only one thing at a time, then how is that different than a SPI?

 

But even consider the whole idea of hooking things.

TMS forward short hooks under the TAD and the HMCS. What does hooking do for me? why not just deposit a mark?

 

Then besides hooking/marking, there is the idea of 'slaving' - basically deciding when to collapse any two interfaces on to the same data point. For example, TMS right long slaves the particular SOI to HMCS. Is it the HMCS box or Is it the HMCS cross? (except for AA,TAD and HUD-when these are SOI, it's the TGP that gets slaved to HMCS) What? If TAD is SOI , why do I want to be messing with slaving the TGP to HMCS? Then of course we have the universal 'Slave ALL' - China Hat forward long, but slave only the TGP to SPI is China Hat Aft LONG. What? If I can slave all to the SPI (which I imagine is what you do when lining up an attack), why would I EVER want to ONLY slave the TARGETTING POD to the SPI? Am I going to be looking elsewhere? Are my bombs going elsewhere? Are my mavericks going elsewhere?

 

And this business of doing bomb dropping by dealing with the HUD is an exercise in information overload. I have to intentionally ignore my driving cues (direction, altitude, TVV, velocity, AOA) and focus on the bombs behavior. Then I have to switch my brain from bombing to flying. It would be safer to have a kinesthetic domain where my brain would know-looking out the front windshield is for driving, looking down at the right MFCD is for weapon targetting. The whole bomb thing could happen on the MFCD. Plus the fact that the MFCD is showing bombing cues makes the HUD cleaner-I dont have to have little characters telling me which weapon I have enabled. I just look down at the MFCD-if it's a bomb, I see the ASL, if it's a Mav I see Mav video. Guns and rockets are still too stupid to do their own thing so I guess those cues still have to pop up in the HUD when I use them so I can point the whole aircraft where I wanted them to go. Can you imagine, I have point the whole massive aircraft a certain way to deploy a little weapon? But all the other data about the rocket, the sidewinder or the bullets (from the DSMS for example) can be on the MFCD and that reminds me which weapon I am using. In fact the Left MFCD can be devoted to Navigation and long distance targets. My brain then knows - look on the left panel for far things and on the right MFCD for near things.

 

Speaking of which, why do sidewinders only point forward? If I can make a raspberry pi recognize my face, cant they put one in the head of a sidewinder with a camera and point that thing backwards? Sure is better than throwing little pieces of aluminum foil at somebody chasing you with a missile aiming at your tailpipe. When I am in a hog, I haven't got a chance even against a Spitfire or a BF109 on my six. It doesn't even have to be a sidewinder with a motor. It can be a little metal dart with moveable fins. It gets released from the A10's ass, the camera looks backward to see the target, and the fins are moved to keep the camera's view centered on target. As the dart slows down do to air drag, the attacker runs into it.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a single database and then have the different 'sensors' actually just be different UIs for the same data? For example, on the TAD I am looking at maps and distances and far away stuff. On the HUD I am looking at where the aircraft is going, on the HMCS I am looking elsewhere nearby (not where the aircraft is going), on the Maverick I am looking at where the missile is going. On the TGP I am looking at where the pod is looking.

 

Sorry for the long post. Perhaps an engineer from Fairchild, NASA, Grumman, Boing, Northrop or Lockheed can share some stories of how the A10 UI got to be how it is. Yes I know, no use whining, just learn the way it is. But if I can flesh out what scenarios lead to the current design choices, then I could use the HOTAS the way it was intended.

 

Remember, A10 was first launched in the 70's When 4KB was the norm for memory shipped with computers of its time.

 

You can upgrade things, but there has to be continuity.

 

Also, checking out Bunyap's series on YT. Highly recommended.

 

 

 

As for the siderwinder, do you mean why it doesn't have a seeker in the back? Or do you mean why can't you fire it backwards? I'd be very leery about firing a heat seeking missile right at my engines!

 

Also the rails would all have to be modified, I imagine.

 

Finally, multiple ways of doing things makes sense to me. Gives you some redundancy.

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I suspect the two people who posted that they love the A10 HOTAS have been at it a LONG time. In fact they have the earliest dates of joining this forum.

I started flying DCS at June. A-10 is my only aircraft. And I lov her HOTAS and complecity of the module (remeber that is the oldest and the most complete module in the game). It's not easy to learn, but also not too hard, you just need practice.

 

Maybe some system could work better and be better integrated, but remember tha this plane was constructed in the 70ties, and it wasn't some single point in time when it switched to present state. System and weapons have beed developped and added from time to time. Engeneers had to find ways to integrate them together and IMHO they did a great job.

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I guess we all have seen this movie. It simply takes time. Lots of it. Do the training with just parts of it, don't try to master it all at once. Concentrate on one, maybe two or three small things and get proficient with those.

 

I haven't been flying the Hog that much back then because ED introduced some smoke effects back in 2012 that literally totally killed my fps (they were sub-1 when something went up) and I wasn't able to sim it at all for like 3 years and even then the performance was extremely subpar until the advent of EDGE for not just the NTTR in early 2018 with the first 2.5 OB. And I just do have one single hat here, having to do all the things with modifier keys. That's the true chore, but even that works, even though not as well as with a full HOTAS. I even got the TMWH, but I simply can't fly at all with that utterly sticky and grainy stick gimbal which literally prevents any approach of precise control surface movement (for every little movement I try to make, it kinda sticks in position and then jumps a bit, but more than I need until it sticks at the new position) which is a bloody shame for a piece of kit that sells now for a grand or even more... I wish I had a Virpil or VKB base for it at least, but I really want to have something FFB with actual FFB support that even the very expensive Brunner base doesn't come with. I once tried the full HOTAS though by throwing some force correlated Mavs from an orbit and it felt rather intuitive even with having it done before with a single hat and modifiers.

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@ skypickle

First of, it wasn't Fairchild that came up with that HOTAS system. The HOTAS system, together with the MFDs was introduced with the A-10C about 30 years after the A-10A. Fairchild didn't exist anymore at that time ;)

 

Now about the HOTAS and sensor managament of the A-10C, I have to agree with some of the other users here that I think it is the best HOTAS system out there, by far! Whenever I fly the Hornet I always get mad how restricted the HOTAS in the Hornet is. I love the ability to exert very detailed control over all my sensors and I find the ability to put different sensors at different placed quite useful.

I think your struggle might be, that you try to learn everything at once and very quickly. Maybe instead of watching 1 minute videos, you should watch some other videos, that explain things in more detail or even better: read the manual. The HOTAS in the A-10C is very complex and it takes some time to get used to (I fly the Hog for almost 10 years now). Once you get used to it feels absolutly natural. When I fly the A-10C I feel like I'm the god of war, that can kill everything below me by flicking my fingers. No other aircraft gives me such a feeling and that's why I love the Hog and it's HOTAS so much.


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I think your struggle might be, that you try to learn everything at once and very quickly. Maybe instead of watching 1 minute videos, you should watch some other videos, that explain the things in more detail or even better: read the manual.

 

This!

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TMS right makes a mark point (with any sensor), and TMS right long turns that into a SPI. Yet there is another function, China Hat forward long, that slaves all sensors to SPI.

The first one is useful to make a markpoint and turn it into SPI without having to make it your steerpoint first. Second one makes all your sensors look at it. They work together perfectly.

 

Yes I understand that I have 5 sensors-HMCS,TAD, TGP, HUD,MAV, AA. But the issue is I have only one focus in my brain. If I am dealing with ONE SPI (by default the A10 only gives you one), it can be confusing to have different sensors looking at different things.

It would be pretty awful if looking out the window with the HMCS kept changing your SPI while the TGP was nicely tracking a tank, wouldn't it?

 

For example, people have noted that different objects can be 'hooked' with different sensors. And that hooked data is different with different sensors. If I can hook only one thing at a time, then how is that different than a SPI?

Hooking is basically selecting an object, but you don't necessarily want to make it a target. For example hook your wingman on the TAD to display his bullseye coordinates.

 

Then besides hooking/marking, there is the idea of 'slaving' - basically deciding when to collapse any two interfaces on to the same data point. If TAD is SOI , why do I want to be messing with slaving the TGP to HMCS?

Looking at something with the HMCS and slaving the TGP to it is such a useful function that it always works regardless of your sensor of interest.

 

It would be safer to have a kinesthetic domain where my brain would know-looking out the front windshield is for driving, looking down at the right MFCD is for weapon targetting. The whole bomb thing could happen on the MFCD.

Dive bombing on the MFCD wouldn't be terribly safe, you'd crash into the ground. You really want to see where you're flying.

 

Guns and rockets are still too stupid to do their own thing so I guess those cues still have to pop up in the HUD when I use them so I can point the whole aircraft where I wanted them to go. Can you imagine, I have point the whole massive aircraft a certain way to deploy a little weapon?

You can use APKWS now, but unfortunately the A-10 isn't equipped with laser or GPS guided bullets.

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Windows 95 was a breeze compared to Windows NT 3.51, the precursor to NT 4.0

 

All kidding aside, I think you are trying to pull it all in.

 

I broke it down by each SOI has its own dedicated switches, and actions.

 

I would work on when HUD was SOI, what did China Hat, TMS, Coolie, slew, DMS do for it - master that, then move on to the next thing.

 

For instance TGP SOI - then deal only with what China HAT, TMS, DMS, Coolie, Boat switch did for it. I didn't try to worry about (initially) the flow of information between MFD, HUD, TGP, TAD, HUD - just focused on functionality of each SOI, in its own space.

 

After awhile, the flow between systems starts to fall into place. Master one SOI, like MAV all by itself, using slew and target designation in simple environments, then work on TGP, target designation, tracking, lasing. Then work in integration of MAV SOI, and then TGP SOI working together.


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I've seen the "display TGP in HMCS by pressing DMS left/short" in 4 different videos, yet this is not the result I get. I see the TGP dashed square around SPI, but no mini TGP display.

 

DMS left/long works as expected, turns off HMCS display.

 

Has something changed?


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I love the Hawg and this new version all the more.

 

 

But to me its more the school yard bully, any generation jet fighter with any A2A weapons load owns its ass.

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I've seen the "display TGP in HMCS by pressing DMS left/short" in 4 different videos, yet this is not the result I get. I see the TGP dashed square around SPI, but no mini TGP display.

 

DMS left/long works as expected, turns off HMCS display.

 

Has something changed?

 

Figured it out...

 

Don't know why but, TGP has to be on right MFCD. kinda lame.

 

Assume this correlates with which wing the TGP is mounted. Will try TGP on left wing to verify.

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Please forgive me, I am a noob.

 

Try this:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312553/

 

 

Even the original A10C training for systems would do you good. The majority of the muscle memory is retained, with subtle changes/additions for the most part. You've had plenty of feedback and input from others, so I won't start breaking anything down here for you. In my opinion, it's best to be in the aircraft and learning each system separately and as complete as you can - rather than small little pieces. And without disservice to those who take the time to make YouTube videos for tutorials - it is difficult to find one that is the right pace for most people, or the right professionalism.

 

 

Good luck, hope you stick with it - as the A10CI, along with the A10CII - are the most "complete" aircraft in DCS and up there at the sharp end with the most rewarding to fly and operate systems.

 

 

Cheers,

 

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Figured it out...

 

Don't know why but, TGP has to be on right MFCD. kinda lame.

 

Assume this correlates with which wing the TGP is mounted. Will try TGP on left wing to verify.

 

Wags explains that the TGP must be on the right MFD in his video, along with the flight manual explaining this. Some little details can be overlooked / misheard / misinterpreted, so don't beat yourself up or try too much additional testing to troubleshoot - as it is correct behavior to only display TGP image from RMFD and nothing to do with which of the two stations the pod is fitted to.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

i7 6700 @4ghz, 32GB HyperX Fury ddr4-2133 ram, GTX980, Oculus Rift CV1, 2x1TB SSD drives (one solely for DCS OpenBeta standalone) Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs

 

Airframes: A10C, A10CII, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-16C, UH=1H, FC3. Modules: Combined Arms, Supercarrier. Terrains: Persian Gulf, Nevada NTTR, Syria

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Wags explains that the TGP must be on the right MFD in his video, along with the flight manual explaining this. Some little details can be overlooked / misheard / misinterpreted, so don't beat yourself up or try too much additional testing to troubleshoot - as it is correct behavior to only display TGP image from RMFD and nothing to do with which of the two stations the pod is fitted to.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

 

I was even watching that video, half paying attention while I followed along from the cockpit... betting I hit pause right about then.

 

Forest for the trees... that's me :doh:

Ryzen 7 5800X3D | 64GB DDR4 3600| MSI RTX 4080 16GB Ventus 3X OC  | Samsung 970 Evo 2TB NVME | HP Reverb G2 | DIY Head Tracker Cap | Logitech X-56 throttle | VKB NXT Premium |  Win 11

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

--Arthur C Clark

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