Radar question + Phoenix tips?

[pstavis]

Hi all!

I'm currently flying the Cage the Bear campaign (again, when i did it the first time there was no SC...).

When engaging A2A against the AI sometimes I have a hard time understanding what is really going on, so here's my questions:

 

 

1) When i'm scanning with the radar (jester to be more precise), what is shown to my enemy? Do they know they are being tracked? When i fire my missiles in TWS, I assume they will only be warned when the missile locks 'em right?

 

 

I ask this because sometimes I get picked up by the enemy radar at great ranges (150-180nm) and my RWR is always screaming. Not sure if it happens to them also (or it happens because they lock only my aircraft at that time).

 

 

2) Now back to the phoenix... So the optimum distance (based on other topics) would be 50nm for TWS kills. Great, 40nm (just to be sure) I fire a salvo of 4 missiles on 4 targets. One hits the target only.

I'm talking about AI players, I believe they're not very smart. Based on the TWS benefits I read, i should hit maybe 2 or 3 right?

 

 

Is there any tips to better handle TWS engagements? Usually I see 3 targets then suddenly one just starts "accelerating" and disappears. Maybe that's jamming?

 

 

Thanks for any inputs!

[Southernbear]

Hi all!

I'm currently flying the Cage the Bear campaign (again, when i did it the first time there was no SC...).

When engaging A2A against the AI sometimes I have a hard time understanding what is really going on, so here's my questions:

 

1) When i'm scanning with the radar (jester to be more precise), what is shown to my enemy?

 

2) Now back to the phoenix... So the optimum distance (based on other topics) would be 50nm for TWS kills. Great, 40nm (just to be sure) I fire a salvo of 4 missiles on 4 targets. One hits the target only.

I'm talking about AI players, I believe they're not very smart. Based on the TWS benefits I read, i should hit maybe 2 or 3 right?

 

Thanks for any inputs!

 

 

Targets on the TID are split in half, top and bottom. The top signifies your own IFF while the bottom is AWACS IFF fed into your plane via the Link 4C datalink

 

In the picture above you are only dealing with your own IFF and as such up arrows are confirmed Hostiles, semi circles are confirmed Friendlies and rectangles are unknowns...this goes without saying, typically, don't fire on rectangles or circle.

 

The line coming down towards you on the scope is your velocity to the target and not it's heading, if your chasing someone but are faster you'll see a much smaller line but it will still be pointed down the scope towards you. Remember this is not a heading indicator.

 

The "Steering centroid" only appears when in TWS-Auto which basically shows the AWG-9's centre point of interest. This is because in TWS-A the AWG-9 will automatically keep targets within its radar cone meaning once you find someone as the RIO you don't need to keep adjusting the scope to keep them inside the cone unlike other radars. in TWS-Manual or TWS-M this is not the case but Jester typically defaults to TWS-A these days.

 

When firing the AIM-54 it is best to wait for the AWG-9's shoot que when outside 25nmi or so. This is indicated by the target on scope starting to flash and will give you a higher kill probability.

 

The AIM-54 itself is currently using some AIM-120 API logic because ED needs to change things in order for Heatblur to be able to put in their custom API, until then their hands are tied. Think of the Phoenix as an AMRAAM that doesn't have has good maneuverability but has much more thrust and isn't limited by some arbitrary Battery life/flight time they got from some dusty F/A-18/F-16 manual.

 

As such the same rules apply. In TWS mode the target only knows there is an F-14 in that direction but gets no lock or launch warning. The missile goes active at the same time the AMRAAM does which off the top of my head is 15nmi. which given the speed and altitude of most intercepts gives the target about 5-10s to go defense before impact. Now in PVP people will not just let an F-14 sit on their RWR for 2mins just flying straight but against the AI you are correct. Going anywhere from 30-40,000 feet your good to shoot at about 60-50nmi with high probability of kill

Edited October 10, 2020 by Southernbear

[Southernbear]

 

1) When i'm scanning with the radar (jester to be more precise), what is shown to my enemy?

 

Here is an example of both aircraft and AWACS IFF working together, notice that all but one of the friendly targets have been IFFed and the symbol is now a complete circle, where as the enemy targets in the top left only have an arrow pointing down (meaning only the AWACS has IFFed the target) and likewise with the 1 friendly target in the middle of the scope

Edited October 10, 2020 by Southernbear

[Southernbear]

Great, 40nm (just to be sure) I fire a salvo of 4 missiles on 4 targets. One hits the target only.

I'm talking about AI players, I believe they're not very smart. Based on the TWS benefits I read, i should hit maybe 2 or 3 right?

 

It should also be noted that despite USAF and or USN doctrine employment of the AIM-54 on a large scale would be an unusual event and thus quite possibly outside the normal envelope of the "28,000 feet" ceiling for most operations. So your issues might be related to altitude. I would suggest firing AIM-54s no lower then 30,000 feet in a TWS, 40-80nmi intercept type engagement to get their full effect and would recommend 35-40,000 feet AND popping up the nose slightly to "manual loft" the missile as it gets a little bit more range out of it as its not using fuel to steer itself up into a loft

 

This is of course if you not already at this altitude.

[Southernbear]

I ask this because sometimes I get picked up by the enemy radar at great ranges (150-180nm)

 

Something else that might help is not to screw with the radar till you've become more in tune with it first. As manually setting jester to scan out to 100 or 200 miles I find can make Jester go dumb and not want to lock up targets. So I would advise getting your bearings on enemy targets then switching the radar distance back to "Auto"

 

On Auto Jester defaults to about 100nmi and since the max ever shot the Heatblur team has achieved is 127nmi going really high and really fast, and that, as you said most of the time TWS engagements are best at about 40-60nmi you have plenty of range.

 

Hell because of the battery life thing you don't have to worry about being shot back at till at least 40nmi and thats assuming the targets have either AMRAAMs or SD-10s...otherwise you looking more at 20-30nmi...so you have plenty of time to get your missiles off.

[Southernbear]

Hi all!

I'm currently flying the Cage the Bear campaign (again, when i did it the first time there was no SC...).

When engaging A2A against the AI sometimes I have a hard time understanding what is really going on, so here's my questions:

 

 

1) When i'm scanning with the radar (jester to be more precise), what is shown to my enemy? Do they know they are being tracked? When i fire my missiles in TWS, I assume they will only be warned when the missile locks 'em right?

 

 

I ask this because sometimes I get picked up by the enemy radar at great ranges (150-180nm) and my RWR is always screaming. Not sure if it happens to them also (or it happens because they lock only my aircraft at that time).

 

 

2) Now back to the phoenix... So the optimum distance (based on other topics) would be 50nm for TWS kills. Great, 40nm (just to be sure) I fire a salvo of 4 missiles on 4 targets. One hits the target only.

I'm talking about AI players, I believe they're not very smart. Based on the TWS benefits I read, i should hit maybe 2 or 3 right?

 

 

Is there any tips to better handle TWS engagements? Usually I see 3 targets then suddenly one just starts "accelerating" and disappears. Maybe that's jamming?

 

 

Thanks for any inputs!

 

This video will go more indepth of what I've mostly already covered and you'll see the AWG-9 Shoot que (target flashing) in more detail here.

[QuiGon]

1) When i'm scanning with the radar (jester to be more precise), what is shown to my enemy? Do they know they are being tracked? When i fire my missiles in TWS, I assume they will only be warned when the missile locks 'em right?

If your radar scans them in search mode (Pulse Search, PD Search, RWS, TWS MAN, TWS AUTO) then they will see you on their RWR as a search emitter. If you lock them up (Pulse STT, PD STT), they will get an alarm, that they're being locked up. If a Phoenix gets close to them and goes active they also get a missile warning.

I'm not sure how the AI reacts to all this, as I'm rarely flying against AI. I prefer to fly against other human sin multiplayer as they react much more naturally.

 

I ask this because sometimes I get picked up by the enemy radar at great ranges (150-180nm) and my RWR is always screaming. Not sure if it happens to them also (or it happens because they lock only my aircraft at that time).

That's the AI doing weird stuff with their radars...

 

2)I'm talking about AI players, I believe they're not very smart.

They might not be smart, but they are cheating. They get much more information from the sim on object locations than a human player would, meaning they have 360° vision and such. That's the main reason why I don't like playing against AI.

 

Is there any tips to better handle TWS engagements? Usually I see 3 targets then suddenly one just starts "accelerating" and disappears. Maybe that's jamming?

No, that might be a missile that is being launched at you ;)

Jamming effects are not implemented in the Tomcat (yet).

[captain_dalan]

Hi all!

I'm currently flying the Cage the Bear campaign (again, when i did it the first time there was no SC...).

When engaging A2A against the AI sometimes I have a hard time understanding what is really going on, so here's my questions:

 

 

1) When i'm scanning with the radar (jester to be more precise), what is shown to my enemy? Do they know they are being tracked? When i fire my missiles in TWS, I assume they will only be warned when the missile locks 'em right?

 

 

I ask this because sometimes I get picked up by the enemy radar at great ranges (150-180nm) and my RWR is always screaming. Not sure if it happens to them also (or it happens because they lock only my aircraft at that time).

 

 

2) Now back to the phoenix... So the optimum distance (based on other topics) would be 50nm for TWS kills. Great, 40nm (just to be sure) I fire a salvo of 4 missiles on 4 targets. One hits the target only.

I'm talking about AI players, I believe they're not very smart. Based on the TWS benefits I read, i should hit maybe 2 or 3 right?

 

 

Is there any tips to better handle TWS engagements? Usually I see 3 targets then suddenly one just starts "accelerating" and disappears. Maybe that's jamming?

 

 

Thanks for any inputs!

 

Forget everything you know about the Phoenix, TWS radar modes or geometries of intercept. The AI is fully aware of EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE. It knows it's being launched upon the instance you pull the trigger. So kiss goodbye your 30+ NM kills. They ain't gonna happen. Ir if they do, it's gonna be the exception, rather then the rule. Especially as long as the CM in DCS work like they do.

 

[pstavis]

Targets on the TID are split in half, top and bottom. The top signifies your own IFF while the bottom is AWACS IFF fed into your plane via the Link 4C datalink

 

In the picture above you are only dealing with your own IFF and as such up arrows are confirmed Hostiles, semi circles are confirmed Friendlies and rectangles are unknowns...this goes without saying, typically, don't fire on rectangles or circle.

 

The line coming down towards you on the scope is your velocity to the target and not it's heading, if your chasing someone but are faster you'll see a much smaller line but it will still be pointed down the scope towards you. Remember this is not a heading indicator.

 

When firing the AIM-54 it is best to wait for the AWG-9's shoot que when outside 25nmi or so. This is indicated by the target on scope starting to flash and will give you a higher kill probability.

 

 

I did believe I was a good F14 pilot until I started reading your post. TBH i couldnt figure out what exactly was each symbol on the TID. So after a good read and some youtube videos, i'm getting better with this things.

Thanks for the inputs!

 

 

If your radar scans them in search mode (Pulse Search, PD Search, RWS, TWS MAN, TWS AUTO) then they will see you on their RWR as a search emitter. If you lock them up (Pulse STT, PD STT), they will get an alarm, that they're being locked up. If a Phoenix gets close to them and goes active they also get a missile warning.

I'm not sure how the AI reacts to all this, as I'm rarely flying against AI. I prefer to fly against other human sin multiplayer as they react much more naturally.

 

 

Thanks for the info, i kinda thought it worked that way.

 

 

 

No, that might be a missile that is being launched at you

Jamming effects are not implemented in the Tomcat (yet).

 

I wasnt recording until the target appeared to be the "jamming" thing I mentioned. You can see I already had fired one missile upon him, suddenly the target simply starts flying to the other direction and disappears.

The missile simply starts going erratically and never appears to lock anything.

 

 

Forget everything you know about the Phoenix, TWS radar modes or geometries of intercept. The AI is fully aware of EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE. It knows it's being launched upon the instance you pull the trigger. So kiss goodbye your 30+ NM kills. They ain't gonna happen. Ir if they do, it's gonna be the exception, rather then the rule. Especially as long as the CM in DCS work like they do.

 

That's the feeling I had...

I recorded one run with the phoenix:

 

 

4 enemies, 4 shots. Hit just one. Not sure what went wrong (despite hitting a buddy :()

[captain_dalan]

 

That's the feeling I had...

I recorded one run with the phoenix:

 

 

4 enemies, 4 shots. Hit just one. Not sure what went wrong (despite hitting a buddy :()

Consider yourself lucky you got even that. I have shot 4 times at a single bandit in STT and still managed to miss all of them. And all the shots were sub 35NM. The missiles in DCS are a mess. The only reason why they work in MP, is because your enemies' missiles are a mess too. On top of that there is a strong user lobby (mostly parts of the MP crowd) that pushes against any change made by ED. So.... yeah....... get used to carrying a lot of dead weight with you on your SP missions. Alternatively modify all the AI flights to be of extremely low difficulty. Low or medium i guess. And hope for the best. :(

[Southernbear]

What I will admit though is only enemies that like fighters and such (presumably with an RWR) will react. Large planes like Tu-160s, Tu-22s, Tu-142s and Tu-95s ect typically fly straight in my experience and don't start to turn till they actually see the missiles but by then and due to their size its too late so 50-60nmi shots are quite reliable against bombers...ironically what the missile was designed for.

[Kula66]

AI Ace level targets seem to fly perfect notches every time ... Veteran's seem more believable/killable :)

[captain_dalan]

What I will admit though is only enemies that like fighters and such (presumably with an RWR) will react. Large planes like Tu-160s, Tu-22s, Tu-142s and Tu-95s ect typically fly straight in my experience and don't start to turn till they actually see the missiles but by then and due to their size its too late so 50-60nmi shots are quite reliable against bombers...ironically what the missile was designed for.

I don't know man, i'm losing between 50-75% of my missiles to chaff, way before the bandit starts doing evasive maneuvers :unsure:

[QuiGon]

Consider yourself lucky you got even that. I have shot 4 times at a single bandit in STT and still managed to miss all of them. And all the shots were sub 35NM. The missiles in DCS are a mess. The only reason why they work in MP, is because your enemies' missiles are a mess too. On top of that there is a strong user lobby (mostly parts of the MP crowd) that pushes against any change made by ED. So.... yeah....... get used to carrying a lot of dead weight with you on your SP missions. Alternatively modify all the AI flights to be of extremely low difficulty. Low or medium i guess. And hope for the best. :(

35NM is still a pretty big distance for fighter targets. I recommend to wait untill <20nm to launch. That way the missile carries enough energy over the entire distance and makes it pretty difficult to evade.

 

I wasnt recording until the target appeared to be the "jamming" thing I mentioned. You can see I already had fired one missile upon him, suddenly the target simply starts flying to the other direction and disappears.

The missile simply starts going erratically and never appears to lock anything.

The contact on your TID is crossed out, meaning it vanished from the radar. The TID continues to show the track of the contact with its last recorded speed and heading and is guiding the Phoenix on that.

Edited October 12, 2020 by QuiGon

[Bananabrai]

I ask this because sometimes I get picked up by the enemy radar at great ranges (150-180nm) and my RWR is always screaming. Not sure if it happens to them also (or it happens because they lock only my aircraft at that time).

 

That's the AI doing weird stuff with their radars...

 

No, that is actually the right behavior.

 

The RWR gives you an indication of what it sees.

If it sees a fighter radar emitting it's tracking (not searching) frequency, it tells you.

 

You might think that you are locked, but how should an early generation RWR know, if the signal is for you or not.

 

The RWR also doesn't know, if there is a buddy in between you and that emitting hostile fighter.

[OnlyforDCS]

Like Quigon already mentioned don't fire your AIM54s at fighters until you are at least 30nm away, and closing fast. Ideally I would fire between 20-25nm, even when flying high and fast. Once you get pitbull indication turn cold get some distance, and rinse and repeat if you need to or want to play it safe & have the missiles to spare.

 

In a multiplayer environment I've had quite a bit of success flying low with the ACM cover up and just firing phoenixes within 10nm's, however you don't want to do that if you're definitely not sure you are firing at an enemy. These missiles become very scary at these kinds of ranges. For extra stealth, just use your eyes and the datalink and fire with the radar not emitting. (Radar ON but not emitting) It's a bit more tricky but well worth it against human opponents who have no idea you are even there. Against AI I wouldn't recommend this tactic.

[QuiGon]

No, that is actually the right behavior.

 

The RWR gives you an indication of what it sees.

If it sees a fighter radar emitting it's tracking (not searching) frequency, it tells you.

 

You might think that you are locked, but how should an early generation RWR know, if the signal is for you or not.

 

The RWR also doesn't know, if there is a buddy in between you and that emitting hostile fighter.

That's indeed an issue and is happening in SP as well as in MP, but it's not what I thought is happening here. I'm not too experienced with the AI, but AFAIK they tend to somewhat randomly lock you up temporarily at extremely long ranges.

[pstavis]

35NM is still a pretty big distance for fighter targets. I recommend to wait untill <20nm to launch. That way the missile carries enough energy over the entire distance and makes it pretty difficult to evade.

I had great success when using <20nm. Thanks!

Based on what I read i thought the phoenix missile would be the choice for shooting bogies 50nm+. It seems its no the case.

 

The contact on your TID is crossed out, meaning it vanished from the radar. The TID continues to show the track of the contact with its last recorded speed and heading and is guiding the Phoenix on that.

 

 

Tbh I did not understand this one. Ok, the contact vanished. However at the beggining there were only 2 targets (at all time), not sure 3 were shown and then one disappeared. Maybe its jester's fault?

 

 

So far I've learned alot from this post. Unfortunately for me the module seems to be 2 players only and still need some polishing on bugs/features not related to HB development itself but DCS engine and stuff. I'll take a break from the F14 and switch to the F18. Thanks alot guys!!

[Southernbear]

TWS should not give a target a "track" indication on it's RWR.

 

TWS works by scanning the target as the radar passes over it and storing it's last known position as a track file. Once the missile is fired it gets updates based off that information and is updated every time that target's position is updated when the radar passes over the correct Bar/azimuth (for every long shots corrective updates could take as long as 5 seconds before transmitting where as short range ones could only take half a second).

 

Either way the target only gets a missile warning once the missile goes active.

 

However in STT and P-STT where its tracking an aircraft with a live feed then yes, the RWR would give a warning.

[Southernbear]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/478840911493726218/765492891194884096/Tacview-20200927-194405-DCS-Bomber_Interception_over_Iran.zip.acmi

 

If it works, this is a text book AIM-54 intercept on a Bomber intercept mission I run sometimes with friends, you'll see that the fighters and bombers don't react till the missile is within visual range (which is about 30-20nmi)

 

If I remember targets were at about 65 miles and we were going near Mach 1 at launch at about 35-40,000 feet

 

Forgive my use of AIM-7s, I still have yet to have a reliable doctrine of when to fire them in an intercept and they tend to go dumb on me, as well as the fighter AI being a little jank once we've merged...they don't seem to like to defend their bombers but once we engage them ourselves they start to do things.

 

I made the mission to teach friends about the use of the AWG-9 and getting comfortable with 40-60nmi shots which mathematically their AIM-120C5s should be able to do but can't and knowing when your able to reliably reach out and touch someone is half the reason this thread exists so yeah.

 

Plus its quite old (the mission) so some things might be wrong with the AI.

 

 

I didn't know how to get Tacview files to upload so hopefully a URL to the Discord download is also fine.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Southernbear

[Spiceman]

AI bandits in DCS can “see” missiles at 50% of their max range. It’s coded into the game. This is why you see bandits start pumping chaff when you launch in TWS even at a very long range. It’s not the radar they’re reacting to, they’re seeing the missile visually even at that range.

[QuiGon]

Based on what I read i thought the phoenix missile would be the choice for shooting bogies 50nm+. It seems its no the case.

It is the case, but not for fighters maneuvering hard. You can kill non-maneuvering targets at up to 70nm even. One of the main purposes of the Phoenix was to defend the carrier and its battle group against soviet naval bombers. Those bombers can't maneuver much.

[Spurts]

case in point, 6/6/6 (six targets, six shots, six kills) against Tu-95s at 95nm is doable, even easy. 2/4/1 against MiG-31s at 60nm is by comparison a huge victory. Granted, I am dodging 2-3 R-33s in the second scenario.

[captain_dalan]

35NM is still a pretty big distance for fighter targets. I recommend to wait untill <20nm to launch. That way the missile carries enough energy over the entire distance and makes it pretty difficult to evade.

 

Like Quigon already mentioned don't fire your AIM54s at fighters until you are at least 30nm away, and closing fast. Ideally I would fire between 20-25nm, even when flying high and fast. Once you get pitbull indication turn cold get some distance, and rinse and repeat if you need to or want to play it safe & have the missiles to spare.

 

Can't say i agree with the above quotes. I've never lost a 35NM (for a Mk60) or 30NM (for a Mk47) shot because the missile ran out of energy. In fact, i've used them to chaff. And sometimes due to maneuvering. But unless the bandit turns cold at the first warning (which the AI seldom does), the Phoenix is more then capable of intercepting any AI bandit.

 

This is my session from this afternoon. I got a bit lucky today, but unless the missile CM rejection has been changed under the hood by ED with the last patches, this only serves to illustrate how crapshoot missile defense really is. The last time i tried this i've had a 75% miss ratio. And they were all due to CM and some notching.