HP Reverb - less FPS and Hz for better experience???

[Adam]

Hi,

 

I just tried something last night and changed my HP Reverb from 90 to 60hz - which yeah - I had that fluro light flickering while on the cliff house in WMR.

 

But I decided to push through with it, force steam reprojection through the steam config file and reduce settings in DCS and see what would happen and whether I could manage it.

 

What I noticed is that I didn't notice the flickering of 60hz in DCS like I did in the cliff house. I'm not sure whether that's because I became accustomed to it during the time between launching the cliffhouse and the DCS gameplay - or whether DCS lighting is different and doesn't produce the same level of flickering.

 

I also noticed that running at 30FPS gave me a much smoother experience than I was experiencing at 45FPS even though it's less FPS. :confused:

 

I thought the higher the FPS - the smoother the experience.

 

The main problems I've been having issues with are stuttering (or jumping of frames where it moves forward and appears to jump back again briefly). Even when the Frame Rates are below 20m/s on the GPU and the CPU is in 'the green'.

 

The other main problem I've been experiencing is objects (especially but not limited to tree's) rendering different in one eye to the other on the horizon causing some sort of "ghost" appearance.

 

Both of these were gone, or at least severely diminished to being practically unnoticeable when I forced 30fps instead of trying for the higher 45, or 60fps.

 

That has me wondering - what is the benefit of chasing higher FPS? I'm new to VR (and good graphics in general) and I'm not sure I understand the benefit of higher FPS - especially if it means that there are more artifacts brought in and when the actual rendering doesn't reflect the smoothness of the FPS. (Basically - when I see 45 or 60FPS being rendered - it's definitely not looking as though the image is being produced more smoothly but the opposite).

 

I can kinda get wanting 90hz (and thus running at 45fps with re-projection on if the flickering is noticeable) - but can't see the desire for more FPS when it's the opposite of smoother in DCS.

 

I plan on playing with this more, and slowly introducing more settings (like turning shadows back on to 'flat' eventually (coz they're off currently) and maybe raising a few other small settings to see what I can get smoothly at these settings.

 

The main challenge I know give my GPU at the moment is increased Super Sampling because of the extra clarity that I get from this. (I've tried doing the opposite and SS'ing at 50% to get higher FPS, but I find that higher FPS with images I can't see clearly isn't as good as lower 'smooth' FPS with clearer definition).

 

If there was another way to have clearer images (even if they weren't as 'nice' or high res - just clearer) I'd be happy with that. (I'd even be happy with buildings been flat texture-less squares and tree's being green texture-less cones at this point if it gave me clarity and a smooth experience in VR!) I know that sounds exterme, but detailed models don't really do much for me when they're so jerky or blurry (or both) that I can't appreciate them.

 

10700k O/C 4.9 | 2080 Super | 64GB RAM | HP Reverb G1 MK 2

[Glide]

The human eye cannot detect more than 25 fps. Full motion video is 30 fps, and that's what you get at the movies. The eye can detect if the rate changes though. That's why vsync is important. 30 fps probably feels smoother because it is not changing. 60 fps is more than enough for anyone. I use vsync in DCS now, not my video card (nvidia). I hope this helps.

[SharpeXB]

The human eye cannot detect more than 25 fps.

That’s not true. You can easily tell the difference between 24fps (film) and 60fps (video) so much so that it makes movies look like “soap operas”. It’s a very distracting effect. In gaming the difference between 25 and 60fps is very noticeable as well.

[eaglecash867]

That’s not true. You can easily tell the difference between 24fps (film) and 60fps (video) so much so that it makes movies look like “soap operas”. It’s a very distracting effect. In gaming the difference between 25 and 60fps is very noticeable as well.

 

+1 to that. The human eye not being able to detect anything beyond 25 FPS is 100% not true. There is also a distinct difference between 60Hz and 90Hz refresh rates on the Reverb. 60Hz makes me feel like I'm trapped in a room lit with a fluorescent light that is on the verge of failure. Others it doesn't seem to bother.

Edited October 14, 2020 by eaglecash867

[VitS]

Saying "The human eye cannot detect more than 24 fps" is same as saying "in US earning more than $7.25 per hour makes no difference" ( 7.25$ minimum wage according to wiki)

[Glide]

:) I meant the maximum the eye can detect is 25fps. And yes, you can tell 25fps from 60, but can you tell 30fps from 60? Of course these things are subjective, but the science is real.

[Mathieas]

Hi there Glide,

 

I do not mean any disrespect with this contradiction but, yes, I(and many others) can tell a difference between 30 and 60hz(FPS). I (and many others) can even see a stark difference between 60 and 120 fps. This is why 120-144hz refresh rate monitors are so valuable. Side note: If you only have a 60hz display you will never see a difference between 60 and any FPS higher then 60 (aside from some added stability in frames). Your display must refresh at the higher rate to see the difference.

 

Out of curiosity have you ever moved a mouse on a 60hz desktop and compared it to a 144hz desktop? It is like going from a sand paper surface to a silk surface (OK i exaggerate a bit but not much :-P. I have seen quite a few blind experiments done to support these statements but would need to a search to find them if you are interested. It would be far more convincing for you to simply try and see for your self... it is very noticeable.

 

Cheers,

 

Mathieas

Edited October 14, 2020 by Mathieas

[Taz1004]

but can you tell 30fps from 60?

 

Definitely. Probably around 120 fps is about my limit. The human eye can only see 30fps is a myth. Media industry needed to justify going with 30 and 24fps standard. They didn't want to admit they were limited by technology at the time. It's similar to Bill Gates saying 640KB RAM oughta be enough for anyone.

Also with TV and movies, certain camera effects give illusion of higher fps. Such as motion blur. So comparing live action standard to games is not ideal.

 

As for OP's post. What's "better" experience is subjective but if you're getting stutter at higher fps, then lowering refresh rate is good idea. Higher FPS will increase CPU cycle as well. CPU makes most of its calculation per frame or tick interval. And more frames there are per second, more calculation CPU has to make.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Taz1004

[SharpeXB]

:) I meant the maximum the eye can detect is 25fps.

I think what you’re trying to say is that this is the minimum that the human eye would perceive as smooth motion. 24fps was decided upon for film long long ago and I’m sure they figured this was the minimum rate which wouldn’t appear juddery. Certainly lower and using less film is better. Pretty sure it had to do with exposure time. Anyways it’s baked into our modern brains to associate 24fps with “fiction” (ie movies) and higher video frame rates as “reality”. That’s why the “soap opera” effect on newer TV is so awful for movies IMO

[Glide]

I think we are all on the same page. I'm just quoting the science of monitor refresh rates. My point being as long as you have stable framerates at 60 and above, you should be happy. I turn the framerate counter off and focus on that MiG-21Bis up ahead.

[DerekSpeare]

I think the OP was taking about was looking for guidance about how to optimize his setup for refresh rates at 60 versus 90...:thumbup:

 

Higher frame rates in VR serve the purpose of preventing vr induced discomfort and disorientation. I recommend to stay with 90, FWIW.

 

Unfortunately, there are really no settings in DCS to allow the player to enjoy a solid 90fps. Even running everything down to min isn't enough. DCS has much more work to do before it gives a robust VR experience.

 

I tried my Reverb at 60 and didn't like it. Of course, each man/woman/person's mileage may vary, but the higher the frame rates the better "overall experience" one may have with his VR flying...imho...fwiw.

[Nodak]

Has anybody tried a Reverb set at 1080p app resolution window setting in the mixed reality settings in win 10? I can set it 1080p in an O+ but its a bit fisheyed, since the 3D effect is squashed a bit vertically, but this setting was put in for the G-2's about to hit. Wondering has anyone tried this in a G-1? To get it back to default 720p you have to reset home under environment. Frames are surprisingly close to 720p, in the 0+ the scaling change is quite noticeable. Cockpit gets a bit blurry, but the far sight out of pit really clears up. Another thing is the edges are cut and part of the FOV is lost, more rectangular with black edges, but not a whole lot, still workable.

Be interesting to find out how it fits a reverb, and the effect.

[Adam]

I think the OP was taking about was looking for guidance about how to optimize his setup for refresh rates at 60 versus 90...:thumbup:

 

Actually - at this stage all I'm chasing is for the most smooth experience without stuttering, or seeing duplicates of images such as aircraft and without having objects rendered differently in each eye.

 

Since the post I've had a couple of 2hr sessions with 60hz and re-projection at 30fps.

 

So far I've definitely noticed the 60hz vs 90hz when in clifftop house. But after being in DCS for a short period - I don't notice it anymore. Whether that's my brain adjusting to it and having the ability to ignore the lower refresh rate or the image in DCS being different I don't know.

 

30fps may not be as liquid as 45 or 90 - but the experience is smoother. I've been enjoying having no stutters, and everything looking clearer. I've even been able to push 200% SS (with the HP Reverb) and still have a smoth experience - which has given me sharper detail as well as the smoothness!

 

I probably won't keep it there, I'll probably pull it back a bit and introduce some nicer textures - but the exersize of chasing smoothness instead of FPS has yielded positive results - for me.

 

I'm under no illusion that there's no difference between 60 & 90hz and am fully aware that faster frame rates would be noticable, but at present to go to those faster settings - I end up having greater factors introduced that cause more discomfort. Namely stuttering, and objects rendering differently in one eye compared to the other.

 

These I don't "get over" while in game - and are constant irritation for me, whereas the 60hz and 30fps re-projected seem to give me a much better experience.

 

Maybe I'm lucky and my mind isn't sharp enough to keep up with noticing the slower refresh rates after I'm immersed in game play :), or maybe I'm just more sensitive to weird artifacts that are introduced at the higher FPS than I am refresh rates and FPS. (Or maybe being brought up on Commodore 64 graphics and conditioned to be OK with those has assisted too :lol:) but either way - the change from 90hz to 60hz and being OK with 30fps makes me feel like I've just upgraded my GPU in all the areas I was having issues with.

[eaglecash867]

I turn the framerate counter off and focus on that MiG-21Bis up ahead.

 

I do the same. It doesn't matter what a framerate counter says if I like what I see or don't like what I see. Sometimes you just have to look out the window. :D

[Whino]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:17 PM, Adam said:

(Or maybe being brought up on Commodore 64 graphics and conditioned to be OK with those has assisted too :lol:)

I know this is an old post, but I too, was brought up on C64 graphics and just got the HP Reverb G2 and for Chirstmas and still playing with the settings. It is hard to believe how far sims have came since Jet and Epyx Combat Flight Simulator.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Whino

[hannibal]

G1 is still best headset... comfortable

[kimkiller]

On 10/14/2020 at 12:49 AM, Adam said:

Hi,

 

.....

 

I also noticed that running at 30FPS gave me a much smoother experience than I was experiencing at 45FPS even though it's less FPS.

 

.....

 

10700k O/C 4.9 | 2080 Super | 64GB RAM | HP Reverb G1 MK 2

I have the same problem as you. My new Reverb G2 and RTX3080ti gives me stuttering as soon as I load the GPU over 70%.

However, at that load the sharpness of the picture is pretty much as it was before using a Rift S and GTX1080!!!!

I know there are other factors that might affect my poor performance but for now my question is:

Can you force the Reverb G2 to run at a certain FPS (and if so, where can I find that setting?) or do you mean by "running at 30FPS" that you have tweaked the settings in DCS so it gives you around 30FPS?

[unlikely_spider]

10 minutes ago, kimkiller said:

Can you force the Reverb G2 to run at a certain FPS

Yeah, in WMR settings

[edmuss]

1 hour ago, kimkiller said:

I have the same problem as you. My new Reverb G2 and RTX3080ti gives me stuttering as soon as I load the GPU over 70%.

However, at that load the sharpness of the picture is pretty much as it was before using a Rift S and GTX1080!!!!

I know there are other factors that might affect my poor performance but for now my question is:

Can you force the Reverb G2 to run at a certain FPS (and if so, where can I find that setting?) or do you mean by "running at 30FPS" that you have tweaked the settings in DCS so it gives you around 30FPS?

You can't force the G2 to run at a specific FPS, it will either run in 60Hz or 90Hz mode as set by the WMR portal settings.  Your stuttering is likely because either you've got the WMR smoothing turned off or you're not able to consistently achieve more than 55% of the refresh rate (50fps/20ms @ 90Hz or  33fps/30ms @ 60Hz) to keep the motion smoothing engaged.  Below the 55% refresh rate threshold it will turn off the motion smoothing because there's not enough spare frames to generate a synthetic frame to interpolate into the renderer.

In a single player mission you should be able to run the G2 at 100% with high settings and still pull enough frames to keep the smoothing engaged.  With my 3070 I can get a reliable 50-75fps with mostly high settings, because I run @ 60Hz the fps has to drop down to 33 before it the view gets jerky so I'm well within the smoothing envelope; I would have to reduce settings to run @ 90Hz and keep the smoothing enabled.

[Svsmokey]

The settings i am happiest with at the moment are wmr to 60hz and SteamVr motion smoothing "off" . This gives me the most fluid graphics , no artifacts , and considerable headroom on both the cpu and gpu to allow increased dcs graphics settings .

[Al-Azraq]

I've got into VR recently so still playing with the options however, forget about keeping 90 hz in DCS no matter what setting you use. You can get pretty close with my system by disabling MSAA but then you will have a lot of shimmering and jaggies.

I settled with a mix of mid to low settings, SteamVR at 54% and 45 FPS locked with reprojection all the time. Reprojection causes the fast moving planes from you have some ghosting but I will live with it. For VR you want your frame time to be stable above everything else, then reduce it below 20 if possible and use reprojection. The more overhead from 45 FPS you have the better reprojection will work.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Al-Azraq

[kimkiller]

6 hours ago, edmuss said:

....

Thank you for a quick answer.

I'm not completely  sure if I understand everything you wrote, I'm a noob with computers, but I will try to see if I can find where to set 60Hz and then use fpsVR to see if the fps is good enough for me to increase the DCS settings so it get a little more sharpness (able to read numbers better in the MFD without leaning forward).

[edmuss]

In a slightly convoluted nutshell...

To keep a VR display smooth the output framerate ideally needs to be at or above the refresh rate of the headset display panels - this was deemed to ideally be 90Hz by oculus when they were developing the original rift almost 10 years ago.  When the output framerate falls below the refresh rate the displayed image gets missaligned when you move your head and the display becomes stuttery; this is one of the causes of VR discomfort.  Oculus developed ASW (Asynchronous SpaceWarp) as a form of motion smoothing to combat the stutters if the output framerate fell below refresh rate.  It forces the render to run at half of the framerate and creates synthetic frames to fill in the gaps up to refresh rate so that the display appears smooth once again when you move your head.  Because the synthetic frames are guessed then it can produce artifacts such as wobbling or distorting edges, the closer you are to refresh rate the less need to be guessed so the display becomes more accurate.

With WMR the motion smoothing is set to be active from refresh rate down to approximately (by my testing) 55% of the refresh rate.  Therefore @ 90 Hz the motion smoothing will be active between 50 and 90 fps and @ 60 Hz active between 33 and 60 fps.  Any framerates below these thresholds will result in the smoothing automatically deactivating and it will be stuttery.

Now to confuse the issue, when motion smoothing is enabled, framerate counters cannot count the synthetic frames and it will either show as locked to refresh rate or half of refresh rate.  Instead, frametimes are used to show how fast the GPU is rendering each individual frame and can be recorded; these are calculated by dividing 1000 by the fps - so 90fps = 1000/90=11.1ms, 60 fps = 1000/60=16.6ms so on so forth.

Essentially if you're using WMR with motion smoothing you need to tune to keep your frametimes below the refresh rate or within the smoothing envelope: -

For 90 Hz then you need you fps to be at minimum 50 consistently so any frametime below 20ms and you're golden.

For 60 Hz then you need you fps to be at minimum 33 consistently so any frametime below 30ms and you're golden.

Enabling 60 Hz refresh rate gives no noticeable reduction in image quality for me, however it does move the smoothing envelope down by a long way so you can turn up settings.  Note that the HP reverb headsets have a 60 Hz refresh rate flicker that some people are sensitive to, some can handle it, some can't.

DCS can be quite hard to tune because it doesn't scale particularly well for lower hardware, going from minimum to maximum settings gains me about 4-5ms frametime reduction but at great change in visual quality.

Edited February 2, 2022 by edmuss

[Al-Azraq]

17 minutes ago, edmuss said:

In a slightly convoluted nutshell...

To keep a VR display smooth the output framerate ideally needs to be at or above the refresh rate of the headset display panels - this was deemed to ideally be 90Hz by oculus when they were developing the original rift almost 10 years ago.  When the output framerate falls below the refresh rate the displayed image gets missaligned when you move your head and the display becomes stuttery; this is one of the causes of VR miscomfort.  Oculus developed ASW (Asynchronous SpaceWarp) as a form of motion smoothing to combat the stutters if the output framerate fell below refresh rate.  It forces the render to run at half of the framerate and creates synthetic frames to fill in the gaps up to refresh rate so that the display appears smooth once again when you move your head.  Because the synthetic frames are guessed then it can produce artifacts such as wobbling or distorting edges, the closer you are to refresh rate the less need to be guessed so the display becomes more accurate.

With WMR the motion smoothing is set to be active from refresh rate down to approximately (by my testing) 55% of the refresh rate.  Therefore @ 90 Hz the motion smoothing will be active between 50 and 90 fps and @ 60 Hz active between 33 and 60 fps.  Any framerates below these thresholds will result in the smoothing automatically deactivating and it will be stuttery.

Now to confuse the issue, when motion smoothing is enabled, framerate counters cannot count the synthetic frames and it will either show as locked to refresh rate or half of refresh rate.  Instead, frametimes are used to show how fast the GPU is rendering each individual frame and can be recorded; these are calculated by dividing 1000 by the fps - so 90fps = 1000/90=11.1ms, 60 fps = 1000/60=16.6ms so on so forth.

Essentially if you're using WMR with motion smoothing you need to tune to keep your frametimes below the refresh rate or within the smoothing envelope: -

For 90 Hz then you need you fps to be at minimum 50 consistently so any frametime below 20ms and you're golden.

For 60 Hz then you need you fps to be at minimum 33 consistently so any frametime below 30ms and you're golden.

Enabling 60 Hz refresh rate gives no noticeable reduction in image quality for me, however it does move the smoothing envelope down by a long way so you can turn up settings.  Note that the HP reverb headsets have a 60 Hz refresh rate flicker that some people are sensitive to, some can handle it, some can't.

DCS can be quite hard to tune because it doesn't scale particularly well for lower hardware, going from minimum to maximum settings gains me about 4-5ms frametime reduction but at great change in visual quality.

This is a great explanation, thanks for taking the time.

Personally I went for 45 FPS with reprojection and tried to give it as much as overhead as I could so the reprojection works better. I get 10-11 ms GPU on the Hornet but 16 ms on the Tomcat which is also enough but you can really notice the Hornet is smoother despite fpsVR showing the same 45 FPS. Of course, 90 hz in DCS is not easy and you have to give up a lot of fidelity to achieve that including MSAA which makes everything look really shimmering.

Textures on medium I can stand, Low terrain as well, low shadows, and shadows off for ground objects but shimmering just looks completely terrible.

[kimkiller]

9 hours ago, edmuss said:

In a slightly convoluted nutshell...

 

Tnx alot edmuss, I really appreciate you taking your time to explain. Now it makes more sense to me where I have to tweak in order to get  the best performance out of my new equipment.