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Planes don't pop chaff vs Rapier?


PoorOldSpike

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Hi, does this Editor thread include Combined Arms discussions too?

If so, I'd like to ask if there's a known issue with the CA Rapier SAM, as AI planes won't pop chaff against it?

 

1- I use the 'Passive Defence' option-

rap4.png

 

 

 

 

2- And the AI SU-25T pops a series of chaff bundles against this Patriot just fine-

(it also pops fine against other radar-guided missiles such as Hawks and Rolands)

pat1.png

 

 

 

3- But when a Rapier (below) lets one fly..

rap2.png

 

 

 

4- the SU-25 doesn't pop any chaff at all, not even a single bundle, and gets toasted-

rap3.png


Edited by PoorOldSpike
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Hello,

 

This behavior is quite realistic because RAPIER is not radar guided - it uses the SACLOS type of guidance, where the operator manually keeps the target in optical crosshairs. The missile itself receives commands from the guidance computer to steer to the target. Therefore, Chaff does not affect a system like this - it could only affect the surveillance radar.

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Also, if I understand it correctly, SACLOS such as Rapier and Tunguska can be fired and hit a jet or heli without even needing a search radar or radar at all... as long as the operator can see the enemy, it can fire upon it and hit. So "search" may be the result of simply hearing a jet - like noise, seeing it, firing upon it and watching the impact. Not even a hint to the pilot that he's being shot down, until there's damage to his airframe.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_command_to_line_of_sight

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Thanks guys, I'd wrongly assumed the Rapier was radiating from whatever's in that green dome on the launcher unit, plus radiating from its Blindfire radar, both of which I thought would warn the AI pilot that he's being illuminated and make him hit his chaff button to try to blind the radars, I'll have to read up more on the real-world Rapier..:)

rapR.png

 

 

 

 

However, the good news is that I've found two ways to defeat the Rapier, firstly by coming in low as in the pic below, he fired this first missile at only 0.2 nm range, then fired no more at all as the plane sped over the far rooftops-

RapS.png

 

 

 

 

Secondly, if the attacking plane comes in over a ridge or high ground like below, the missile smacks into the ridge because Rapiers tend to drop low after launch before zooming up again-

(and no, the telegraph wires had zilch to do with it, as the Rapier also hit high ground in other tests away from all clutter)

RapT.png


Edited by PoorOldSpike
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RAPIER uses the surveillance radar in the top dome to search for the targets; target acquisition and tracking is performed visually. Blindfire radar was added later as a complement to enable the system to operate in low-visibility conditions. In theory, both radars could be affected by Chaff to some extent, but given the operating range and band, they should be able to filter the Chaff out quite easily.

The missile behavior after launch is a correct one because the missile flies unguided for the first couple of seconds until it acquires the signal from the guidance antenna (the parabolic antenna in the middle of the launcher assembly); only then it begins to adjust course.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I guess the problem with AI is that they'll only start releasing chaff if they get a launch warning from their RWR, and I'm not sure they'll get one with the Rapier (unless their RWRs can pick up the uplink signal).

 

As other users have said, the green dome on top of the launcher contains a search RADAR ('Dagger' and IFF if I'm not mistaken), the dish on the front is an uplink antenna for the radio command guidance.

 

Rapier initially required an operator to optically (using the optical tracker) to track targets manually, with missiles being tracked automatically (apparently optically, by the optical tracker), and the guidance is SACLOS (semi-automatic command to line of sight). With Blindfire, my understanding is that it can track both missiles and targets automatically, allowing for ACLOS, or automatic command to line-of-sight whereby not only is missile and missing steering automatic, target tracking is too.

 

Another issue that might be happening is that in DCS, chaff is essentially identical to flares, just for RADAR guided missiles. AFAIK deploying chaff has no effect on RADARs themselves (at least for player aircraft, and as far as I can tell), they only have an effect on missile guidance.

 

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