bkthunder Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) On 6/19/2022 at 4:27 PM, Kobymaru said: OK so I want to believe that high AoA situations lead to wing rock and unstable roll/yaw axis due to stalls. But the current implementation just feels really silly. I do not own a Mig-21 IRL, so I can not check, but does Magnitude really want to tell me that it departs in the exactly same way, every single time? In a left hand turn, at exactly 16° AoA (DCS, not indicator), the plane rolls right, yaws left and then in the opposite direction. Right hand turn exact opposite. It doesn't even lose any lift during this "wing rock", because the g-load stays pretty constant. If it's a form of stall, should it not decrease somehow? To me it looks less like an aerodynamic phenomenon and more like Dolphin jumped into my cockpit and started to wiggle my controls to mess with me for fun Have been complaining abou this for many years now. My outtake is M3 is just unable to properly tune the FM, so they added a "digital spike" stall that is scripted. Not holding my breath to see it changed... Edited June 30, 2022 by bkthunder 2 Windows 10 - Intel i7 7700K 4.2 Ghz (no OC) - Asus Strix GTX 1080 8Gb - 16GB DDR4 (3000 MHz) - SSD 500GB + WD Black FZEX 1TB 6Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yufighter Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 (edited) The Magnitude 3 MiG 21 sometimes behaves like a playful young goat that jumps and defies the laws of physics. There is no inertia in its motion so it looks more like a bouncing ping-pong ball than an 8-ton aircraft. Take a look at these shots of flight parameters and flight dynamics. If you manage to bring the flight model partially closer to the one in the videos, we will be very grateful! I'm sorry but I use google english! Edited July 7, 2022 by yufighter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusRoPotato Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 There is no way separation will result in an instantaneous change of yaw rate. It makes absolutely no physical sense, and to hear it was intentionally designed this way from an operations manual is not a good point of defense. What you should expect is an immediate effect of wing drag and possibly turbulence across the tail during separation producing a yaw moment, not an instantaneous yaw rate. Furthermore, it will be a weak one because of how small the aspect ratio is vs its yaw inertia. Here is an example step by step of the expectation: High Angle of Attack A wing separates, let's say the left wing Left wing loses lift so it begins to roll left At the same time, a small left yaw moment is introduced, but it is weak because the ratio of AR to INy is very small. By the time it rolls 90 degrees, almost all of its original angle of attack is now sideslip, but some sideslip was lost because of the yaw moment. Now there is a strong yaw moment due to sideslip. it begins to yaw more strongly until it reaches peak yaw rate at zero side slip If allowed, yaw will oscillate and stabilize, but intervention can either allow early correction, or even greater difficulty regaining control. In the FM I saw: High Angle of Attack Instantaneous yaw rate that makes no physical sense and would probably kill a pilot if it really happened. Clearly there is a major conceptual error there, as if this reaction was scripted. This was almost the first module I ever bought, but I skipped it for this reason alone. Actually, it was the defense of it that struck me down. Of all the things that have killed Mig-21 pilots, can you guess what none of them ever died from? There were over 11,000 of these aircraft built. Should be easy to find one video of this happening IRL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D4n Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) Yes, fix it ASAP, it's unacceptable!!! Don't tell me that the pilot wouldn't black out or throw up from such negative G... Edited January 21, 2023 by D4n 1 1 DCS Wishlist: 2K11 Krug SA-4 Ganef SAM, VR-TrackIR icons next to player names in score-chart PvP: 100+ manual player-kills with Stingers on a well known dynamic campaign server - 100+ VTOL FARP landings & 125+ hours AV-8B, F-14 crew, royal dutch airforce F-16C - PvP campaigns since 2013 DCS server-admins: please adhere to a common sense gaming industry policy as most server admins throughout the industry do. (After all there's enough hostility on the internet already which really doesn't help anyone. Thanks.) Dell Visor VR headset, Ryzen 5 5600 (6C/12T), RTX 2060 - basic DCS-community rule-of-thumb: Don't believe bad things that a PvP pilot claims about another PvP pilot without having analyzed the existing evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted January 24, 2023 ED Team Share Posted January 24, 2023 Track? Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kobymaru Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 (edited) On 1/24/2023 at 6:48 AM, NineLine said: Track? Just hop in Mig-21, fly around 600 km/h and pull on the stick until exceeding AoA limit. Not sure how a track is supposed to help against an abandoned module though. Edited February 19, 2023 by Kobymaru 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 Funny how an "abandoned module" gets updates almost every patch. One needs to read changelogs to notice, though . 1 "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kobymaru Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 5:23 PM, Ala13_ManOWar said: Funny how an "abandoned module" gets updates almost every patch. One needs to read changelogs to notice, though . Since you're so good at reading, could you help me find the part of the changelog where they talk about fixing 8 year old bugs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 39 minutes ago, Kobymaru said: Since you're so good at reading, could you help me find the part of the changelog where they talk about fixing 8 year old bugs? It's where devs already said after Corsair release there'll be a MiG-21 v2.0 . 1 "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Pilot Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) I can't believe the MiG 21 is so unstable when you try to keep the nose up 10 degrees of AoA during take off and landing! It's just awful, it's not a MiG-21. I use a long stick and straight curves but I'm always in a strange when I'm holding my nose. I regret buying this module Edited March 16, 2023 by Red_Pilot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmum Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 8 hours ago, Red_Pilot said: I can't believe the MiG 21 is so unstable when you try to keep the nose up 10 degrees of AoA during take off and landing! It's just awful, it's not a MiG-21. I use a long stick and straight curves but I'm always in a strange when I'm holding my nose. I regret buying this module ...But it's not unstable at 10 degrees indicated AoA? What weight are you landing at? Loadout? Are you cutting the throttle below 80% N1 before the main wheels are on the ground? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) Even using a long stick (25cm here) without proper curves it's not that easy to fly mate. Try some proper curves and test the difference. It wasn't unstable at those situations you mention last time I flew it. Edited March 17, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnvyC Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 I googled "skill issue" and the dictionary referenced this post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Pilot Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) In another section of the forum, there were guys who claimed that the wrong cooling system of the spitfire is great, until the devs improved it. I will say one thing: I have no problems with other plane or helicopter. Including with MiG 29 and MiG15. Only in MiG21 some special skills are needed to hold the nose. In fact, there have been many issuses on behavior at high angle of attack. Edited March 17, 2023 by Red_Pilot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Pilot Posted March 17, 2023 Share Posted March 17, 2023 4 часа назад, Ala13_ManOWar сказал: Even using a long stick (25cm here) without proper curves it's not that easy to fly mate. Try some proper curves and test the difference. It wasn't unstable at those situations you mention last time I flew it. Thanks for the advice. You're right. I really could try other curves, but after a series of tests on a long runway, when I kept the speed for nose up, I was not satisfied with the flight model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmum Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 (edited) I have yet to see a single case of someone complaining about the 21's landing characteristics, where they were finally persuaded to provide a trackfile, only for it not to become immediately apparent that the problem was shockingly bad technique (usually because they were "inspired" by another player's genius "lifehack"). Of all the problems the FM has, landing characteristics are not one of them, and takeoff issues mainly come down to how much the jet rocks on its suspension combined with too lengthy of a takeoff run compared to the real jet. Almost all bad takeoffs I've seen (as well as my own messy ones) are from holding the stick back and lifting too early, versus holding the stick back until the nose attains the correct attitude and then holding the nose there. You can make comparisons to the Spitfire's cooling all you want, it doesn't change the facts of the matter: the only reason people complain about landing the 21 in DCS comes down to terrible technique every single time. Edited March 18, 2023 by rossmum 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Pilot Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 terrible technique? nose rising terrible technique... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_ManOWar Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 40 minutes ago, Red_Pilot said: terrible technique? nose rising terrible technique... lol It's really easy mate, show a track where that bad behaviour you meant happens and we can see it . "I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303_Kermit Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) On 10/26/2020 at 1:38 AM, Robin885 said: I was expecting this kind of answer... But no, none of these two points are realistic, and it is a bug. It's not about the way the plane stalls, it's that it simply doesn't stall. The manual states that after 33° AoA, the plane reaches it's critical AoA and won't go further. This limit does not exist in game today. And about the wing rock, I'm not talking about stability. Just watch it by yourself: It just looks like the plane reaches an area where the FM is not even "coded" anymore I have to disappoint you, but everything what @m4ti140 wrote is true. In my university we made a experiment in Wind tunnel with the delta wing (well... I know Re < 300 000) Vortex kept stable up to 90°. What is missing in MiG-21 DCS however, is gyroscopic moment from engine during low speed stall. Every source I found mention about it (during stall and by loosing stability in level flight by V > 1300KIAS Gyroscopic moment playes in MiG-21 significant role). It was confirmed by many sources. If you're interested in Vortex you may find many interesting articles and even movies about these fenomenon. My best regards Kermit Edited March 19, 2023 by 303_Kermit 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Pilot Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) At speeds from 250 to 300 km/h, I tried to keep the stick in one position to raise the nose. Every time there was a tendency to raise the nose even more, I tried to push the stick forward, i was forced to fluctuate within 5-6 degrees. So, I have already pushed the stick forward, and the plane still continues to lift its nose. The next stick position is much farther than what was needed to hold 10 degrees. But the nose is still moving up and don't move down. So I had to push the stick even harder and this resulted in constant wobble and inability to accurately control holding the 10 degree angle of attack. You are constantly forced to fluctuate within 5-6 degrees MiG_21_take_of.trk MiG_21_takeof_2.trk In short, you need more force to lift the nose wheel off the concrete than to keep the nose wheel up. But further, at the same speed, the plane continues to raise its nose I have no problem taking off and landing safely. It's not a problem for me! But I don't like this behavior Edited March 21, 2023 by Red_Pilot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Pilot Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) Here is a very good demonstration of what I wrote about. In DCS, when you can lift your nose, you take off almost immediately. If you can't take off, you can't hold your nose properly. In the second case, you are getting a permanent wobbling. As if the speed is not enough, even though you already have 260 - 280 km/h. But the video clearly shows that the IRL can first lift its nose, continue to roll and take off when you have got enough speed for this Edited May 15, 2023 by Red_Pilot 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) It's a problem affecting both takeoff and landing. Difficult to get the front wheel smoothly off the ground (contrary to notes in real life flight manual), and difficult to keep it from slamming down at touchdown. Almost as if there was too much weight on it, or stabilators were not producing enough lift in these transitional phases. It's always been like that, however, since module release 9 years ago, and countless posts were written about it. No point in beating a dead horse. I don't expect it to be ever changed, but truth to be told it's not a critical problem either. Edited May 15, 2023 by Art-J i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corn322 Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 It is tricky I admit. And I have never been able to hold 10° aoa on takeoff like the DCS manual says. I kinda wobble around 12-15°. I imagine this is easier in a real plane since you can feel movement instead of having only visual feedback. Here's me taking off in Caucasus if you're interested. takeoff.trk 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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