Auto Air to Air Refuel

[Rhinozherous]

All in all I get the idea now... there are some militant users who are against every function that would help others. Even if it would NOT INTERFERE with there own experience. But there are also people who think this could be a good addition.

As I already said in my first post... this is not about how good YOU are in AAR. This is a request for ED on the Wishlist.

[Mr_sukebe]

 

Just read the thread... And why do you think I have to quantify anything here? This is the Wishlist forum.

 

I've got no issues with you making the suggestion, my question was regarding your attempted justification.

[Tippis]

All in all I get the idea now... there are some militant users who are against every function that would help others. Even if it would NOT INTERFERE with there own experience. But there are also people who think this could be a good addition.

 

Pretty much. There's this weird contingent on the forum that are dead set against any kind of improvement to the game that does not fit their very strict specifications of The One True Way™ it must be played. If it lets more people enjoy more of DCS, it must absolutely be combatted at all cost. :D

 

But yes, it would probably help with the wish part if you could specify exactly what it would do since just “automate X” is too vague to really describe anything.

[Rhinozherous]

 

Pretty much. There's this weird contingent on the forum that are dead set against any kind of improvement to the game that does not fit their very strict specifications of The One True Way™ it must be played. If it lets more people enjoy more of DCS, it must absolutely be combatted at all cost. :D

 

But yes, it would probably help with the wish part if you could specify exactly what it would do since just “automate X” is too vague to really describe anything.

 

- I think the ideal way would be a radio option or a bindable command (like autostart). When you get near the tanker around the point where he clears you for contact, you activate that command and the AI takes control over your airplane for the refuel. There should also be a disconnect command for aborting the refuel.

 

- I would also be happy with a more bare bone version... Something like this: The tanker has a defined area around himself (like a bubble) and if you are in this area and activate the command you are slowly getting fuel - You could be ANYWHERE in the bubble with a diameter of lets say 1000 feet.

 

- Or if it makes it more easy in terms of development... You fly near the tanker, defined distance, activate command, and boom - refueled.

 

- Another approach would be a way so that you still have to fly near the boom or basket but the AI helps you a ton during maneuvering, dampens overcorrection and overspeeding. And showing graphical margins where it gets disconnect - like a graphical tunnel following the boom or basket and when you are inside this tunnel you still have to steer but the AI helps you a lot keeping the right directions.

[SharpeXB]

No one is forcing you to use such functions!

Thats not the point. Adding a feature like this would take up the time of the development team that’s better spent elsewhere IMO

This is a hardcore sim so game aids aren’t exactly in keeping with its overall direction. And you already have unlimited fuel as an option.

ED should finish all this stuff first

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/news/official-updates/272009-dcs-world-roadmap-update

 

 

[Gladman]

I have been successfully performing AAR for a number of years now and I rather enjoy having / maintaining the skill to do so. Having said that, given an auto function could easily be made selectable for servers I encourage the implementation. It can only further the reach of DCS to people which in the end makes more maps, more aircraft, and more fun for me.

[Tippis]

Thats not the point. Adding a feature like this would take up the time of the development team

 

That's a shockingly irrelevant point in a wishlist topic, though. The whole point of the entire forum section is to suggest features that take up the development team's time, and your opinion of where that time is “best spent” is not even remotely a factor.

[randomTOTEN]

I'm pretty certain that before the new flight models were released for Flaming Cliffs 3, AAR was performed by AI taking over the aircraft from the player... You couldn't even fly the procedure yourself if you wanted to.

[Gruman]

Isnt there already a easy refuel option? -> Disable "Wake Turbulence" ;)

Well, if ED first focuses on reworking (*) the whole AAR process, I would be perfectly fine if they add a small helper for those in need (Visual Guide, larger acceptable zone, more damening).

 

But a complete auto-refuel option is a bit to much, isnt it? Cant you do that simply with a script? If Proximity to tanker is smaller than X, refuel the bird? Would be at least as immersive asAuto Air Refuel...

 

(*) Reworking AAR Process

• Tanker is aware of the receiving aircraft and changes speeds accordingly &
  
• the KC-135 MPRS should be able to refuel with both variants of refueling
  
• Better Racetracks without wierd turning radius
  
• More feedback (push/pull) from the Probe/Basket
  
• Better Voicecoms / Requesting the amount to refuel / More immersion / Larger tolerance for "Ready Precontact" with that stupid Radio Communication Menu :megalol:
  

[Mars Exulte]

 

You assume a lot of things. Not everyone learns at the same rate. I tried and never managed to not get frustrated with AAR. When I grab the basket, staying at the same speed exactly as the tanker is not as easy. And then that idiot decides to make a turn without notifying. I actually manage to grab it, but holding on is clearly not as easy to me and my meager skills. Doesn't mean I should just go back to fly Ace Combat. And I prefer to spend the time I have to play practising more fun skills. To each his own.

 

Clearly this is something which is recognized, as recent campaigns (like Raven One, or Serpent's head) have an easy AAR option. Here the OP is only asking for something included in the game, like auto-start or easy coms. I agree with Rhinozherous: why argue against something that you personally wouldn't use, but might help others?

 

They don't notify before making turns in real life either, afaik. I've never had the AI make abrupt turns unless I'm outside precontact and haven't called him yet (which usually promots him to soften his orbit), or taking so long to hook up that the status resets (necessitating calling him again, in the meantime he may maneuver).

 

I can't help it you're struggling, but that's due to your methods, not because the task itself is particularly difficult. A lot of it is psychological (again, you're simply holding one position, which you do constantly in a car in traffic, I'm sure). The rest of it is going to be method, improper trim, poorly setup curves, poor core stick skills. I'd suggest ignoring the basket and just practice flying alongside the tanker, or any aircraft. It's literally the same thing.

 

As for the last part, this is a public forum. If you're not open to discussion, maybe you should stick to read only blogs?

[Wrcknbckr]

 

Just read the thread... And why do you think I have to quantify anything here? This is the Wishlist forum.

 

As for the general sentiment among forum users; a few months ago we had the same (old) discussion that ended up in a poll; https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...-easy-aar-poll

2/3 not in favor of easier AAR.

[Mr_sukebe]

 

As for the general sentiment among forum users; a few months ago we had the same (old) discussion that ended up in a poll; https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...-easy-aar-poll

2/3 not in favor of easier AAR.

 

Ah, some stats.

 

another way to interpret that is that 1/3rd of respondents would like it, which suggests that it’s worth adding into the real wish list, but with a fairly low priority.

[SharpeXB]

Isnt there already a easy refuel option? -> Disable "Wake Turbulence" ;)

Wake turbulence doesn’t affect AAR if you approach the tanker correctly. Don’t fly directly behind it in the wake, approach from below and from the hold position off to the side.

 

Well, if ED first focuses on reworking (*) the whole AAR process, I would be perfectly fine if they add a small helper for those in need (Visual Guide, larger acceptable zone, more dampening).

This would screw people up even more. Any helper graphics become a visual crutch and messing with the FM will enforce bad habits. Practice is all that’s needed. There is already a visual guide on the boom tanker via the belly lights.

 

 

[Gruman]

Wake turbulence doesn’t affect AAR if you approach the tanker correctly. Don’t fly directly behind it in the wake, approach from below and from the hold position off to the side.

I know. I can refuel mid-air. But the wake turbulence is still poping up in every second "I need help with AAR" Topic.

 

This would screw people up even more. Any helper graphics become a visual crutch and messing with the FM will enforce bad habits. Practice is all that’s needed. There is already a visual guide on the boom tanker via the belly lights.

Well... If the lights on the tanker would actually be readable in every situation...

[SharpeXB]

Well... If the lights on the tanker would actually be readable in every situation...

When aren’t they readable? I assume they are there for aircraft like the F-16 which can’t see the boom. The A-10 is super easy because it’s got a nice view of the whole boom and tanker and doesn’t need the lights. You can’t see them very well in the Hog but it doesn’t matter.

 

If DCS put something on the screen like the IFLOLS graphic in the Supercarrier, it would screw you up big time because your eyes would get glued to it and you’d never learn to use them correctly. Where your vision is concentrated at is very important in AAR ie don’t look at the basket!

 

 

[draconus]

Желаю всем, кто против подобных упрощений, чтоб у них подвеска вооружения и дозаправка на земле занимали столько же времени, сколько в реальности

By all means I would like that implemented properly. Refueling flow time is rather realistic (although in the whole process we should wait for the fuel truck if it's not the right refueling place, and also wait for the crew to start it and get away after), rearming is waaay too fast and repair is cheat like hell. I don't know how it got to that as default DCS behavior. This should be set optional like the rest of the cheats and helpers.

 

As a reminder - this is an english side of the forum - are you ashamed of what you write here or just that lazy?

[Gruman]

When aren’t they readable? I assume they are there for aircraft like the F-16 which can’t see the boom. The A-10 is super easy because it’s got a nice view of the whole boom and tanker and doesn’t need the lights. You can’t see them very well in the Hog but it doesn’t matter.

In my Case: VR. Not clearly visible in the Rift S. The brightness (as with the IFLOLS on the carriers) could be increased.

 

And you can look at the basket as much as you want... As long as you dont chase it ;)

Again, I can put the thing into the thing without much problems on the F-16, F/A-18, A-10C.

 

And the OP didnt ask for Help in AAR, he just wants a shortcut:pilotfly:

 

[SharpeXB]

And the OP didnt ask for Help in AAR, he just wants a shortcut:pilotfly:

If he got help, he wouldn’t need a shortcut. :music_whistling:

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

I should add that poor visibility of director lights is apparently realistic. C.W. Lemoine mentioned that they're too dim to see at least once. I guess IRL they're mostly used during the night, when your ability to fly the sight picture is impaired.

[Tom Kazansky]

I should add that poor visibility of director lights is apparently realistic. C.W. Lemoine mentioned that they're too dim to see at least once. I guess IRL they're mostly used during the night, when your ability to fly the sight picture is impaired.

 

Well on a 4k 42 inch monitor there is absolutely no problem to see the lights perfectly even at daytime. So it does not seem ED modelled the lights "hard to see" on purpose. Imho.

 

[Tippis]

If he got help, he wouldn’t need a shortcut.

 

 

The shortcut would offer the help. You keep saying all these things that are good argument in favour of implementing this but then you try to make it sound like you feel it's a bad idea. You really need to make up your mind. :D

 

By all means I would like that implemented properly. Refueling flow time is rather realistic (although in the whole process we should wait for the fuel truck if it's not the right refueling place, and also wait for the crew to start it and get away after), rearming is waaay too fast and repair is cheat like hell. I don't know how it got to that as default DCS behavior. This should be set optional like the rest of the cheats and helpers.

 

The funny thing about simulators is that you often want to avoid absolute realism because that would defeat the point. ;)

[Notso]

 

It was no question.

If you're going to auto-refuel, why bother with the AAR in the first place? If you don't want to learn how to do it, then just skip it.

 

[Dragon1-1]

Doesn't the Su-33 have something like that? I wouldn't be all that surprised if the real one did, too, Russians like to put a lot of automation in their fighters.

[johodg]

So tired of all this reluctance to change and improvments stating realism as factor for not doing it.

What realism?? It´s a simulator and it is already unrelistic in many ways and in particular two things in this matter namely: self center joystick and no feeling of forces in combination with poor visual references. Realism is very virtual in this context and is often made equal with manual input and in my opionion this is to simplify it to much.

Instead we should look at in a broader perspective and see the essens of what this complex sandbox is all about. 

In that contex the AA refuel is a very little thing but also a very vital component for the total imersion especially in campaigns like Raven one. So why spend insanly much focus and failing with AA refueling just because of factors that are not as in reality? Do the process like lining up, communicate, spending time to get fuel in etc is the essens of the realism wheareas fighting with a selfcentered joysticks with no felling of forces around and poor visual references in VR is not.

So my only wish in this would be to have a selectable option that (as an example) does the following: In the moment where you connect with the basket the simulator takes over(exactly as for AI) and flies the plane until you are filled up or press the undesignate button for detach. 

This would for me add much more realism as it would give me AA refueing as a valuable asset(as in reality) instead of a booring way of failure. Also if you look at the bigger picture (procedure wise) it is no cheat actually. Everything will work as in reality and take the same time.

Another aspect of is that maybe I would be able to manage AA refuling just perfectly on my rig if I solely focus on AA(adjust the joystick with no dead zone, set the sensitivity to suite AA, no VR, etc etc). But then a lot of other things will be ruined imersion wise and not feel realistic just for one piece in the big picture.

@Eagle Dynamics please at least try to understand the importance of this type of functions for a desktop pilot with limited time to spend but money to by all of your modules...  

[SharpeXB]

Looks like most people don’t want this option

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by SharpeXB