Flap/Slat lockout

[Noctrach]

I hate to bring this topic up again but I was wondering what the official stance was on the status of the flap damage model in the Tomcat.

Is it complete? Is it still WIP?

 

Reason I ask is that while the -1 states overspeed/overstress is a risk at above 1.5-2G and 225 KIAS, but I've not seen them break yet at up to 5.8G and just under 300 KIAS.

They do however, break the very instant you exceed 300 KIAS.

 

I'm getting into BFM with the Tomcat and notice that while staying fast will save my bacon in a 1vMany situation, in a 1v1 the best way of fighting by far is to bleed down to about 290 knots and drop the flaps.

It feels like weird way of fighting, but the performance in terms of both rate and radius with the flaps down is so crazy that it's incredibly hard to beat.

 

Is this the final state or will learning to fight this way ingrain some really bad habits that will come back to bite me later?

[Skysurfer]

They did implement some extensive flap damage model in one of the recent patches and said this was mostly final and they won't go much beyond this level of modeling. I couldn't tell you because I don't try and break the jet though. :smilewink: You can get stuck AUX flaps or asymetric deployment if that's what you're asking. The 2G operational limit isnt the breaking point, it is a conservative limit with lots of buffer. Obviously there wont be any IRL data on when and how exactly the main flaps will fail under various overstress conditions. This very topic has been discussed extensively in the past and the TLDR is, you don't know what you don't know. HB are listening to SME's and statements from Grumman regarding the flaps and it's already in the ballpark of the real expected performance. Unless you have your very own flight test data to disprove that.

[Victory205]

....will learning to fight this way ingrain some really bad habits that will come back to bite me later?

 

Yes.

 

 

[Noctrach]

Calm down there @Skysurfer , no need to get so defensive.

 

I'm not out to get anything changed, it suits me right fine as it is, so I haven't the faintest inclination to start pretending I know how it is in real life.

It's just a sim after all. F-14 is very believable in most other aspects so if this is the only flaw then fine by me.

 

Just find it rather incongruous that they'd specifically limit it to 2G at under 54,000 gross weight and 1.5G above that, when it's fine all the way up to 6G.

The jet was rated 7.5-8G for wartime, bits start breaking for realsies at 12G.

Flaps are rated for 225 KIAS, bits start breaking for realsies at slightly over 300 KIAS.

Seems to me like a 50% "safety margin" is sensible, a 300% one might be a tad overkill.

 

But if HB and the SMEs are fine with this and consider it done, then I'm fine with it and will continue to make use of this to the full extent that the sim allows.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

In general, or for this specific module in the foreseeable future? ^^

Because I do feel it goes against some good and sensible BFM principles, but it's just so damn effective when executed right.

[BodyOrgan]

"An off-the-books tactic we used to counter this was to manually extend the wings to the fullest, then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting. It was hugely successful, but the danger was that the flap torque tubes were not designed for this and could become stuck."

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

[fat creason]

Flap torque tubes have the possibility of breaking at 10 knots above the 225 KIAS limit, as well as 2.5G and up. The faster you go or add loading beyond that, the chance increases. If the flaps are in motion this chance increases even more. If you are able to hit 300 KIAS before the flaps jam, that's a bug. It might have already been fixed for this update but I will verify and the fix will be in the next patch we release.

[Noctrach]

Alright, then I've been lucky so far. Will adapt my tactics to that new knowledge.

I have tested it quite a bit and I can consistently push her to 290-300 knots and 5-6G in both on- and offline without lockout.

I hear the same from other Tomcat pilots so I'm assuming there will be a lot of unpleasant surprises coming next patch.

 

Regardless, thanks for the clarification @fat creason :thumbup:

[Skysurfer]

Let alone the fact that DCS does not model over-time metal fatique and accumulative airframe stress. Only catastrophic failures are modelled.

Also, my previous post was in no way meant to be offensive or an attack towards you or your post in any way, just wanted to get staight to the point.

[Victory205]

Probably the most common issue on the F14 was torque tubes breaking. The only place I ever used full flaps was in a flat scissors, below 120 kias, and at a G to a G and a half. A flat scissors is a bad place to be, and was a facet of dinking around in a known 1v1. Getting the flaps stuck, and by definition, also the wing sweep when you need to bug out is another factor.

 

AT 300 KIAS and 5-6G's, you'd be breaking more than the torque tubes. Losing flap panels, hinges, actuators and dancing in front of a FNAB board comprised of your superiors.

[draconus]

Let alone the fact that DCS does not model over-time metal fatique and accumulative airframe stress. Only catastrophic failures are modelled.

 

Depending on a module it is simulated but only per sortie. I heard it's in Su-27 and Tomcat too.

 

@OP: slow fight is only available when you can force the opponent into it.