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AIM-54 Changes / new API fixes are live in today's patch


IronMike

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Hi guys, it looks like maybe some API changes were pushed in yesterday's hotfix patch, as the AIM-54C in PDSTT will now lose track if the launching aircraft drops lock even with the missile within 5NM of impact. At least this is the case in single player, can't currently speak to multiplayer. The TTI value on the TID is still way off, though.

AIM54-Test.trk

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Thanks for the link, it's definitely an interesting read!

 

Actually, in some odd shots, i've seen the Pheonix slightly come back also in DCS. Also it's clear that the Phoenix was not meant to be a fighter-to-fighter weapon and does not excel in the role (dedicated improvements were introduced with the ECCM version that we don't have in DCS - actually DCS might not be able to model the differencies).

 

As for TWS, yeah, i read HB messages about TWS limitations here and there, i understand (and appreciate) their modelling, there are some cases where it's behaviour makes very challenging keep the SA, so i'm asking (in other topics) if it's really meant to be that way of there's something missing not really behaving as expected (including screen captures and ACMIs). If HB confirm that it is, i have no problems with that. :)

 

A nice point with all those test is that i better understood AIM-54 modes (e.g BRSIT).

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The technology used for the Eagle and the Tomcat, as well as the operational concepts were very different. There are also costs involved, and the Eagle was simply not designed to haul the phoenix. You could maybe haul three of those on the appropriate pylons, and the radar would operate just fine but the technology was probably a little too risky for a single crewed fighter.

 

This Quora thing you found seems pretty good.

 

Yeah I wish I could find more info on this. I ordered that radar book by Stimson from Hughes to see what I can learn from there.

 

Apologies, I should have clarified that I added the article for the pertinent parts which talk about the F-14/AWG-9/AIM-54. I forgot that it was also about the theoretical application of the AIM-54 to the F-15.

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Ok, i think i found out what's happening with STT.

 

If you shoot in PDSTT the missile is effectively SARH. If you lose lock, the missile doesn't go active. Example: your fire STT, turn away the missile is lost.

 

BUT if you shoot in PDSTT, you lose lock and TWS kicks in picking up the track THEN the missile will start behaving as if it was launched in TWS.

 

Beside firing at a distant target and doing a 360° turn to lose STT and pick up in TWS there's an easier way to replicate this: start TWS, go STT, look at the missile in F6, hit PLM and see the missile steering away from interception course, wait for TWS to pickup and see the missile going pitbull (presumibly if within onboard radar range).

 

Overall, given the current lackuster performance of TWS-A (that's not clear how much is an intended behavior or not), scoring hits is quite challenging.

 

Did my own test which confirms this result.

AIM54-Test2.trk

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@IronMike Hi, just a quick question. When firing in PD-STT should the target aircraft get a launch warning or just a lock warning. There seems to be some confusion about this as some say it is a bug but some say it is meant to be that way. I would imagine myself that SARH/DL means it does not give a launch warning. I understand that it should not go active when fired from PD-STT though. Thanks.

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SARH missiles as a whole should give launch warnings, unless theres specific evidence that a particular RWR cannot detect the signal change (something youre not likely to find out publically). STT signals =/= guidance signal. You can see this in the DCS F/A-18C; the radar switches from STT to Pulse Doppler Illumination (PDI) (the PRF indicator changes), which is not CW, but simply a HPRF PD illumination.

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@IronMike Hi, just a quick question. When firing in PD-STT should the target aircraft get a launch warning or just a lock warning. There seems to be some confusion about this as some say it is a bug but some say it is meant to be that way. I would imagine myself that SARH/DL means it does not give a launch warning. I understand that it should not go active when fired from PD-STT though. Thanks.

 

There's no confusion. A guidance signal is injected, and this has been verified by a bunch of sources some time ago.

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@GGTharos From the discussions I have had there is quite a lot of confusion over this subject. Also, you can guide missile via TCS at the moment too and I think this needs some explination. Also you need to consider the significance of the fact that the missile lofts and can be launched from well beyond visual range in PD-STT. If the missile is lofting then it is only right to asume that it does not have the target in gimbal it whole journey. There is also the fact that a fox 3 comunicates via data link hense SARH/DL. I am not asuming an answer here though, just looking for confirmation from HeatBlur on what should actualy be happening. A definitive answer from them will solve any confusion.

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@GGTharos From the discussions I have had there is quite a lot of confusion over this subject.

 

No, there is not. We know there is an injected guidance signal. People who are confused just don't know about it and make assumptions.

 

 

 

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SARH missiles as a whole should give launch warnings, unless theres specific evidence that a particular RWR cannot detect the signal change (something youre not likely to find out publically). STT signals =/= guidance signal. You can see this in the DCS F/A-18C; the radar switches from STT to Pulse Doppler Illumination (PDI) (the PRF indicator changes), which is not CW, but simply a HPRF PD illumination.

 

@dundun92 STT and PD-STT are not two completely difernet things. I think you have to recognize that guiding a fox three which is capable of comunicating with the mothership via data link via HPRF is unesesary. The Phoenix is not a fox 1 so does not need this, the limitation if any would be in the WCS of the Tomcat not the guidence of the missile. So what I am asking is specificaly wether the Tomcat decides to go HPRF when you pull the trigger in PD-STT when a Phoenix is selected or does it decide to stay PD-STT and guide the missile on target via data link. Of course for a fox 1 it needs full ilumination, but a fox 1 can not comunicate with the firing ship like a fox three. Also, the Phoenix when fired in PD-STT is in SARH/DL guidence, essentaily my question is "What is the significance of the /DL part of that statement".

 

Also, another question is, can you switch from TWS to PD-STT when the missile is mid flight. Say if a track is lost in TWS 30 seconds from impact. All questions for Heatblur.

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@dundun92 STT and PD-STT are not two completely difernet things. I think you have to recognize that guiding a fox three which is capable of comunicating with the mothership via data link via HPRF is unesesary. The Phoenix is not a fox 1 so does not need this, the limitation if any would be in the WCS of the Tomcat not the guidence of the missile. So what I am asking is specificaly wether the Tomcat decides to go HPRF when you pull the trigger in PD-STT when a Phoenix is selected or does it decide to stay PD-STT and guide the missile on target via data link. Of course for a fox 1 it needs full ilumination, but a fox 1 can not comunicate with the firing ship like a fox three. Also, the Phoenix when fired in PD-STT is in SARH/DL guidence, essentaily my question is "What is the significance of the /DL part of that statement".

 

Also, another question is, can you switch from TWS to PD-STT when the missile is mid flight. Say if a track is lost in TWS 30 seconds from impact. All questions for Heatblur.

 

Granted some of this is HB specific. But a SARH cannot be guided in (terminally anyway) on DL, its not accurate enough. It needs SARH illumination for the terminal phase at the very least, whether CW or HPRF PDI depending on the seeker. And the AIM-54 is suppsoed go SARH in PD-STT as HB themselves have said. As for when, idk, perhaps its like the ER, which guides on DL until 25km, where it then switches to SARH illumination. But Im pretty sure the launcher is illuminating all the time from launch to impact irrespective of what the seeker is doing, though I could be wrong. But it 100% is not staying in DL until impact, thats just not possible.

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@GGTharos I am not sure if you are understanding me right here as there is confusion on the subject. Can you link documentation which states that when launching in PD-STT the target will most definetely get a missile warning please? Just looking for clarity on this rather than hearsay.

 

No, you're not understanding. There's no hearsay. This question has been dealt with a long time ago; no, I won't be digging up documentation for this. Nothing against you, but that's time I'd rather spend doing something else given that this information is (I hope) already in the hands of those who need to have it.

 

This subject has been discussed multiple times for multiple aircraft; in fact IIRC it was a quote from an F-14 RIO that stated a sparow launch gets some extra chirps/tones so you can tell it's a launch. It's very unlikely that this would change for a different missile. I don't know the exact reason for placing the guidance signal in there - maybe it's there to code it for a specific missile or jet (mothership) or provide ECCM, but it's there - it's there for eagles, tomcat, su-27's, mig-29s, phantoms, etc. For the Su-27 there's even a signal diagram somewhere and there are flanker fans who will give you much better detail - not that whatever one aircraft does automatically applies to another + its weapon system, but in the end the big picture basics aren't so different from one to the other.

 

If you want actual documentation you're going to have to dig hard, or if you're lucky someone with a handy reference here could tell you.

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Source? How does the guidence signal look like, how is it injected onto the track and how does it affect various RWR's?

 

For missiles that use CW (e.g, AIM-7E/F, R-23/24(?)), thats very detectable on RWRs. For missiles on PDI (AIM-7F/M/H, R-27) it generally switches to a high PRF illumination (the F-15 -34 details it in the AIM-7 employment section, and FLOOD mode section for example).

Here is one quote from the F-15 -34 detailing AIM-7M/H employment (there is no CW here, AIM-7M/H isnt even compatible with it):

 

When the weapon release button is pressed, the PACS relays all prelaunch commands and activates the VTR. The missile battery is not activated until the radar informs the PACS that the HPRF PD ilumination waveform is being produced.

 

As for how specific RWRs respond thats again not something youll find publically. But its very clear that there is a signal change, and I think its safe to assume that RWRs can detect this, and thats the best we can do without knowing classified specifics.

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He mentions that the missile would sometimes have to fly in such a way as to arc back towards its own loft trajectory. Furthermore, BIO mentions that TWS had some issues with false contacts and I believe Heatblur stated that it is by design (or that it simply won't change) that TWS is not suitable for maneuvering targets. I expect the more targets that are being tracked, the easier it is for the TWS mode to drop accurate tracking.

 

Thats a great read. And yeah I would expect that the AWG-9 TWS would have problems with maneuvering targets. In general TWS is vastly overpowered/undermodeled in DCS as it currently stands for the F16/18. In fighter pilot world its oft referred to as track while lie due to the positional uncertainty it has versus other modes. So I think that HB is doing it "more right" in this case of having TWS drop tracks or have ambiguous tracks, especially given the C64 level processing power of the AWG-9.

 

I also found the comments on the G limits to be quite interesting as well. Dunno if there are sources to back those up.

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Granted some of this is HB specific. But a SARH cannot be guided in (terminally anyway) on DL, its not accurate enough. It needs SARH illumination for the terminal phase at the very least, whether CW or HPRF PDI depending on the seeker. And the AIM-54 is suppsoed go SARH in PD-STT as HB themselves have said. As for when, idk, perhaps its like the ER, which guides on DL until 25km, where it then switches to SARH illumination. But Im pretty sure the launcher is illuminating all the time from launch to impact irrespective of what the seeker is doing, though I could be wrong. But it 100% is not staying in DL until impact, thats just not possible.

 

HB said it goes SARH/DL all the way to target and does not go active. They said that in the latest patch notes. That gives no indication of wether it it full illumination or not which is why I am asking and realy only Heatblur can answer it properly. Also as I said before, SARH/DL from PD-STT would give much more acuracy on tracking information than TWS will so there is no real reason why it would not be able to track via DL except for the update speed being a limitation. The reason a fox 1 must get full illumination on target is becuase its seeker requires it to realy see the target and track.

 

In the patch before these missile bugs there was a similar update where HB said that they updated the tracking so that the Phoenix could track via TCS, I have no idea if this is how it is meant to be but I have found that fox ones can do this too since that patch. So things are getting confusing as to whether it is meant to be this way or not. There seems to be a lot of speculation around the issues rather than actual backed up information which is what I am looking for, an official answer.

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No, you're not understanding. There's no hearsay. This question has been dealt with a long time ago; no, I won't be digging up documentation for this. Nothing against you, but that's time I'd rather spend doing something else given that this information is (I hope) already in the hands of those who need to have it.

 

This subject has been discussed multiple times for multiple aircraft; in fact IIRC it was a quote from an F-14 RIO that stated a sparow launch gets some extra chirps/tones so you can tell it's a launch. It's very unlikely that this would change for a different missile. I don't know the exact reason for placing the guidance signal in there - maybe it's there to code it for a specific missile or jet (mothership) or provide ECCM, but it's there - it's there for eagles, tomcat, su-27's, mig-29s, phantoms, etc. For the Su-27 there's even a signal diagram somewhere and there are flanker fans who will give you much better detail - not that whatever one aircraft does automatically applies to another + its weapon system, but in the end the big picture basics aren't so different from one to the other.

 

If you want actual documentation you're going to have to dig hard, or if you're lucky someone with a handy reference here could tell you.

 

No sorry you are definetely not understanding as you are answering a question which was not asked. I am asking about the Phoenix in SARH/DL specificaly and not about the AIM-7. They are not just diferent missiles, they function entriely diferently so quoting a RIO who said that the AIM-7 gets a diferent tone is not the right answer as a Phoenix is not an AIM-7.

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For missiles that use CW (e.g, AIM-7E/F, R-23/24(?)), thats very detectable on RWRs. For missiles on PDI (AIM-7F/M/H, R-27) it generally switches to a high PRF illumination (the F-15 -34 details it in the AIM-7 employment section, and FLOOD mode section for example).

Here is one quote from the F-15 -34 detailing AIM-7M/H employment (there is no CW here, AIM-7M/H isnt even compatible with it):

 

 

 

As for how specific RWRs respond thats again not something youll find publically. But its very clear that there is a signal change, and I think its safe to assume that RWRs can detect this, and thats the best we can do without knowing classified specifics.

 

You are also answering questions about the AIM-7 when questions are being asked about the Phoenix. The AIM-7 does not track in SARH/DL so there must be a diference if a destinction is being made. My question is about that diference, the AIM-7 has nothing to do with how the Phoenix tracks in SARH/DL. The issue seems to be getting even more confusing here.

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No sorry you are definetely not understanding as you are answering a question which was not asked. I am asking about the Phoenix in SARH/DL specificaly and not about the AIM-7. They are not just diferent missiles, they function entriely diferently so quoting a RIO who said that the AIM-7 gets a diferent tone is not the right answer as a Phoenix is not an AIM-7.

 

There are no different PD illumination modes for the Sparrow and Phoenix mentioned anywhere for SARH guidance, and there are no hints that such a thing is happening either in either the documentation nor by SMEs.

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@dundun92 Also, TWS is also SARH but with the missile switching to ARH at a certain time or range to target. The fact that the acronym "SARH" is being used does not indicate full radar illumination. STT implies radar spotlighting but not full flood. So, PD-STT SARH/DL is also not an indication of flood. It is merely an indication that the missile is tracking via information from the mothership radar and that data link is being used to communicate that information.

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@Triggerjo23 You are confusing the term active here. Active has nothing to do with the PD/CW illumination. Its referring to the AIM-54 seeker going into ARH mode. It is impossible to guide a missile to impact on DL guidance. It is not accurate enough. Thats not a sparrow specific thing, thats a missile thing. There are only two options for terminal guidance: the AIM-54 seeker goes into ARH, OR it goes into SARH and guide off of a CW/PDI illumination. Also SARH DOES mean illumination. It means the AIM-54 seeker is guiding in semi-active mode, which by definition implies illumination that the missile can guide on. And nowhere here did I imply FLOOD was used. Datalink simply cannot be used to guide a missile terminally. You will need to switch to either SARH or ARH in the terminal phase.

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There are no different PD illumination modes for the Sparrow and Phoenix mentioned anywhere for SARH guidance, and there are no hints that such a thing is happening either in either the documentation nor by SMEs.

 

The hint is in "SARH/DL". PD-STT illumination does not give a launch warning, a luanch warning is only given once a missile is actualy launched. The question is, does the WCS distinguish between a fox 1 and fox 3 and if so does that mean the "DL" part of that statement means that the missile recieves information via data link rather than the missile seeing the illuminated target via its seeker head. As I said before, considering the fact that this can be done from long ranges and that the missile lofts from PD-STT launched above 10nm it would be dificult for the missile to track soley on the illumination. A fox 1 lofting when fired from 20nm is not the same as a Phoenix being launched from 50-80nm and lofting. It is perfectly reasonable to think that the way the missile tracks the target is diferent from the way an AIM-7 tracks the target.

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Heres an AIM-54 specific quote about the AIM-54s SARH guidance mode:

image.png.5825ef59c8d109f6b37c0e9de4d6fc5f.png

 

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