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AIM-54 Changes / new API fixes are live in today's patch


IronMike

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@Triggerjo23 You are confusing the term active here. Active has nothing to do with the PD/CW illumination. Its referring to the AIM-54 seeker going into ARH mode. It is impossible to guide a missile to impact on DL guidance. It is not accurate enough. Thats not a sparrow specific thing, thats a missile thing. There are only two options for terminal guidance: the AIM-54 seeker goes into ARH, OR it goes into SARH and guide off of a CW/PDI illumination. Also SARH DOES mean illumination. It means the AIM-54 seeker is guiding in semi-active mode, which by definition implies illumination that the missile can guide on. And nowhere here did I imply FLOOD was used. Datalink simply cannot be used to guide a missile terminally. You will need to switch to either SARH or ARH in the terminal phase.

 

I am afraid I am not confusing the term active. Quote from the Heatblur F14 manual. As you can see, it implies as a fall back that the missile can be guided via TWS which is data link all the way to target.

 

 

TWS SARH/ARH

 

In TWS the AN/AWG-9 is capable of supporting the launch of up to 6 AIM-54 missiles against 6 different targets concurrently. In the first stage of the AIM-54 engagement, the missile is guided semi-actively by the AN/AWG-9 radar using both guidance commands transmitted via the radar and radar energy reflected off the target. Then when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH.

Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode. The AN/AWG-9, however, continues to transmit guidance commands to the missile as a fallback in case the missile can’t acquire the target autonomously. This means that the AIM-54 isn’t a “fire and forget” missile per se but it can be considered autonomous after transfer to ARH.

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Heres an AIM-54 specific quote about the AIM-54s SARH guidance mode:

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"image.png","data-attachmentid":7136792}[/ATTACH]

 

That still does not answer the question. I believe that is talking about TWS-SARH/ARH which is evident in stage three where it says up to six missiles can track like this. That is information on the SARH portion of flight for TWS launched missiles.

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I am afraid I am not confusing the term active. Quote from the Heatblur F14 manual. As you can see, it implies as a fall back that the missile can be guided via TWS which is data link all the way to target.

 

 

TWS SARH/ARH

 

In TWS the AN/AWG-9 is capable of supporting the launch of up to 6 AIM-54 missiles against 6 different targets concurrently. In the first stage of the AIM-54 engagement, the missile is guided semi-actively by the AN/AWG-9 radar using both guidance commands transmitted via the radar and radar energy reflected off the target. Then when the missile is within range of its seeker’s ARH mode the AN/AWG-9 commands the missile to switch to ARH.

Absence of this command via the AN/AWG-9 radar means that the missile won’t switch to the ARH mode. The AN/AWG-9, however, continues to transmit guidance commands to the missile as a fallback in case the missile can’t acquire the target autonomously. This means that the AIM-54 isn’t a “fire and forget” missile per se but it can be considered autonomous after transfer to ARH.

 

Id like you to explain how a TWS track that updates every couple seconds is capable of guiding an AIM-54 terminally.

Also, you missed this part of the quote:

the missile is guided semi-actively by the AN/AWG-9 radar using both guidance commands transmitted via the radar and radar energy reflected off the target.

Why do you think it would suddenly stop guiding off the reflected energy? And irregardless the point is that it is guiding off reflected energy, in this case in conjunction with datalink.

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That still does not answer the question. I believe that is talking about TWS-SARH/ARH which is evident in stage three where it says up to six missiles can track like this. That is information on the SARH portion of flight for TWS launched missiles.

 

Its not referring to ARH, there was already a section on ARH before it. The "up to 6" has nothing to do with TWS, as its referring to 6 missiles on the same target

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Its not referring to ARH, there was already a section on ARH before it. The "up to 6" has nothing to do with TWS, as its referring to 6 missiles on the same target

 

As I have said, you are talking about this as if you know a lot and are giving quotes, however many other people I have spoken to about this have said the opposite, hense the confusion. Also, some of the people disagreeing with you have a considerable amount of knowledge of the Tomcat and post their own quotes and justifications. This is why I am asking Heatblur for an answer. I am not saying it does either, I am looking for an answer to the question from Heatblur as we all seem to be speaking diferent language here. There also seems to be some diferences in the documentation from Heatblur and what you are saying. What you posted above does not state it is talking about SARH/DL or whether the missile was fired in PD-STT or P-STT. Just seems best to get an answer from Heatblur as we are going in circles. I am looking for a difinitive answer for the people who tell me the opposite too as well as myself as I can not find proper documentation on this and the speculation gets frustrating.

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The hint is in "SARH/DL". PD-STT illumination does not give a launch warning, a luanch warning is only given once a missile is actualy launched. The question is, does the WCS distinguish between a fox 1 and fox 3 and if so does that mean the "DL" part of that statement means that the missile recieves information via data link rather than the missile seeing the illuminated target via its seeker head.

 

You're going to inject the DL signal or guidance signal, all of which adds something to STT for the RWR to detect. This isn't the first missile to transition from DL to some guidance signal.

 

As I said before, considering the fact that this can be done from long ranges and that the missile lofts from PD-STT launched above 10nm it would be dificult for the missile to track soley on the illumination.

 

It matters for the missile's own mechanics, but it has no bearing on what the RWR is doing. BTW, that missile has a 50-60 degree gimbal. If it's in the loft (likely no more than 30 degrees - anything more and you extend the TOF of which you have precious little) it can look down and see the target. The main issue would be SNR at longer distances.

 

A fox 1 lofting when fired from 20nm is not the same as a Phoenix being launched from 50-80nm and lofting. It is perfectly reasonable to think that the way the missile tracks the target is diferent from the way an AIM-7 tracks the target.

 

It is different, but again this only matters for the missile's own mechanics; it doesn't matter to the target's RWR. What we're talking about is what the radar is doing - the missile gets information delivered from this radar which could be different from one missile to another, but the point remains that it must be added to the waveform.

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For missiles that use CW (e.g, AIM-7E/F, R-23/24(?)), thats very detectable on RWRs. For missiles on PDI (AIM-7F/M/H, R-27) it generally switches to a high PRF illumination (the F-15 -34 details it in the AIM-7 employment section, and FLOOD mode section for example).

Here is one quote from the F-15 -34 detailing AIM-7M/H employment (there is no CW here, AIM-7M/H isnt even compatible with it):

 

 

 

As for how specific RWRs respond thats again not something youll find publically. But its very clear that there is a signal change, and I think its safe to assume that RWRs can detect this, and thats the best we can do without knowing classified specifics.

 

Sure and I get that for those types of missiles it makes sense. The sparrow and generally all fox 1's rely on their seeker to pick out the target return. I specifically asked for the Phoenix in SARH (PDSTT) mode though. How does the AWG-9 guide it until impact in PDSTT and what modes/frequencies does it use / when does a frequency change occur? Because I could not find any documentation about that in the past and I guess HB should have this information.

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It is different, but again this only matters for the missile's own mechanics; it doesn't matter to the target's RWR. What we're talking about is what the radar is doing - the missile gets information delivered from this radar which could be different from one missile to another, but the point remains that it must be added to the waveform.

 

If the missile is guided via data link then there should not need to be a change to the waveform. This is why I am asking about SARH/DL. I think it is best to wait on an answer from Heatblur as we are just going around in circles I feel.

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Sure and I get that for those types of missiles it makes sense. The sparrow and generally all fox 1's rely on their seeker to pick out the target return. I specifically asked for the Phoenix in SARH (PDSTT) mode though. How does the AWG-9 guide it until impact in PDSTT and what modes/frequencies does it use / when does a frequency change occur? Because I could not find any documentation about that in the past and I guess HB should have this information.

 

Specifically, I dont know. I dont have terribly many sources, nor have I fully read them. I would assume HB has this info, im simply basing this off the fact that this how all other SARHs behave (including AIM-7s launched from F-14s). Pretty much every SARH missile you can find needs some sort of guidance signal, and I dont see why the AIM-54 would be an exception without specific evidence to the contrary. I would assume that the AIM-54 uses CW based on its age, but again I'm not 100% certain. But I think its clear that infrequent datalink signals cannot guide a SARH missile until impact.

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If the missile is guided via data link then there should not need to be a change to the waveform. This is why I am asking about SARH/DL. I think it is best to wait on an answer from Heatblur as we are just going around in circles I feel.

 

The DL is transmitted together with the STT signal - it is the injected signal, it is the altered waveform. Seriously, where/when/how did you believe that DL signal was being transmitted?

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Specifically, I dont know. I dont have terribly many sources, nor have I fully read them. I would assume HB has this info, im simply basing this off the fact that this how all other SARHs behave (including AIM-7s launched from F-14s). Pretty much every SARH missile you can find needs some sort of guidance signal, and I dont see why the AIM-54 would be an exception without specific evidence to the contrary. I would assume that the AIM-54 uses CW based on its age, but again I'm not 100% certain. But I think its clear that infrequent datalink signals cannot guide a SARH missile until impact.

 

The Phoenix does not use CW. Just older Sparrows, even though it's told the 7Mand MH use CW as well in the Tomcat. Guess we'll have to wait for an answer from HB or find other sources then.

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The Phoenix does not use CW. Just older Sparrows, even though it's told the 7Mand MH use CW as well in the Tomcat. Guess we'll have to wait for an answer from HB or find other sources then.

 

Im pretty sure neither the M or MH monopulse seekers are compatible with CW, just PDI. Would have to find a source though.

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Now that looks super interesting. Good to know that it was a monopulse seeker for sure.

 

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Is it just me or are the Aim-54 useless jester breaks lock immediately after 30-40 seconds of launch and then they miss at only 60nm range which isn’t that bad where they used to almost always hit also they only work and I only get kills and almost within visual range like either my game is messed up or they don’t work or I don’t know how to use them.

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Is it just me or are the Aim-54 useless jester breaks lock immediately after 30-40 seconds of launch and then they miss at only 60nm range which isn’t that bad where they used to almost always hit also they only work and I only get kills and almost within visual range like either my game is messed up or they don’t work or I don’t know how to use them.

 

Which Aim54?

 

54A, probably right against human controlled fighters.

54C, maybe wrong, but 60nm is probably way too long, try 30 or less.

 

* thats assuming there is an actual difference between the two in DCS.

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Which Aim54?

 

54A, probably right against human controlled fighters.

54C, maybe wrong, but 60nm is probably way too long, try 30 or less.

 

* thats assuming there is an actual difference between the two in DCS.

Yeah I think cause the C Aim-54 used to be part amraam modelled it’s definitely changed just got to adapt to it

 

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Yeah I think cause the C Aim-54 used to be part amraam modelled it’s definitely changed just got to adapt to it

 

Well, IRL the 54C performance vs fighters should be different from the 54A. But in DCS that's a totally a different question, PLUS, the whole API is currently in a state of flux (read broken, but no one wants to point fingers), so... Best of luck till the 18th. Or maybe December. Or more likely mid Feb (that 2 more weeks meme you hear).

 

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The DL is transmitted together with the STT signal - it is the injected signal, it is the altered waveform. Seriously, where/when/how did you believe that DL signal was being transmitted?

 

Data Link is not an injected signal an RWR will sense otherwise you would know every time someone launched in TWS.

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@Jackbilt24 The AIM-54 is best when fired on long range targets only if they meet these perameters:

 

 

They are flying slow at launch and then go full power to top speed. (Only realy applies if you know they must fly towards you and fight you).

 

If they are cranking and you expect them to turn in or know that they must. (Generaly best at above 20-40 miles).

 

They are well under Mach 1 and are somewhere between 30-40 miles.

 

 

 

It is all about either the weapon control system and when it tells the missile to go pitt-bull or how well they can evade.

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Is it just me or are the Aim-54 useless jester breaks lock immediately after 30-40 seconds of launch and then they miss at only 60nm range which isn’t that bad where they used to almost always hit also they only work and I only get kills and almost within visual range like either my game is messed up or they don’t work or I don’t know how to use them.

 

Yes there are known issues with the radar currently.

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Data Link is not an injected signal an RWR will sense otherwise you would know every time someone launched in TWS.

 

And this is what I'm saying. The D/L receiver of the Phoenix is in the back of the missile and the target does not need to be illuminated by an extra guidence signal for that. It's literally a STT track which determines the flyout. You also don't need to hit the target directly in any way - you have a 61kg warhead + proxy fuse. Regardless, without clear documentation we will never know for sure about these mecahnics.

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Data Link is not an injected signal an RWR will sense otherwise you would know every time someone launched in TWS.

 

Yes it is a signal that the RWR will sense - it's an RF transmission made by the very same radar antenna that's tracking the target, so why wouldn't the RWR detect it?

No it can't tell you that the missile is being launched at you specifically when the radar is TWS, but STT plus that signal is a dead giveaway.

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Yes it is a signal that the RWR will sense - it's an RF transmission made by the very same radar antenna that's tracking the target, so why wouldn't the RWR detect it?

No it can't tell you that the missile is being launched at you specifically when the radar is TWS, but STT plus that signal is a dead giveaway.

 

If the RWR can 'see' the signal from the missile D/L from the launching platform, why shouldn't it give you a warning? Asking honestly.

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If the RWR can 'see' the signal from the missile D/L from the launching platform, why shouldn't it give you a warning? Asking honestly.

 

Real answer: It depends on what the customer wants because in the end it is 'just software'.

 

Basic reasoning here:

 

If the offending radar is in TWS, you can pick up the DL but you don't know that you're the target.

But, if you're aware of the TWS scheme and you know it's particularly narrow (eg. F-15 HDTWS) then you might trigger the warning anyway. Again, it's 'customer option'.

 

However in STT, if that STT includes a DL signal suddenly (or any other signal) you're pretty much certain you're being launched on.

 

Now, real air forces have tactics/strategies that they execute which are based on knowledge of their own missile ranges and shot critria/timelines, as well as the opponent's. It's almost nothing like what you do in DCS most of the time - so, you don't really need the RWR to guarantee that an enemy missile won't hit you because you're not depending on the warnings anyway, and you're executing a multi-ship tactic rather than chucking missiles in some random online encounter in a basic 1v1. In any case, acting only on the warning is typically acting too late.

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The DL is transmitted together with the STT signal - it is the injected signal, it is the altered waveform. Seriously, where/when/how did you believe that DL signal was being transmitted?

 

Yeah my understanding, and correct me if I 'm wrong is that the "DL" is an encoded waveform transmitted by the radar that the missile picks up.

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