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AIM-54 Changes / new API fixes are live in today's patch


IronMike

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TWS itself does not give you any more warning other than an RWR reading saying "Oh there a enemy plane over there" the AWG-9 as well as other radars is still searching the sky like in RWS but stores information on targets, analyses them, and then applies the the math to tell if the target in relation to your speed, altitude and heading allows for a "good" firing solution and then gives you the shoot que.

 

When the missile is fired it is getting corrective commands based on whats in the computer and that track file. This can range from one command every 5 seconds at huge range 60-80nmi shots to several every second for say 30-20nmi shots. Regardless, its not until the missile gets the active command and switched to its on board radar homing does the enemy plane's RWR pick up the threat because the radar is "staring" at the plane. You can achieve the same thing with STT/PD-STT as the radar on the aircraft this time is using all of its energy and time to "stare" at that plane only *most* RWR can differentiate between Aircraft and missile radars which is how you can get a Lock and missile warning.

 

As for the A-10 and *very few* F-16s, they use along with their RWR several cameras running in real time connected to a computer running a algorithm, this algorithm is scanning the video feed for trails of smoke which could indicate a missile launch such as a MANPAD and warn the pilot. Because this system is optical it means the RWR system in those planes could detect even IR missile launches such as AIM-9s, R-60s, R-73s and the mentioned MANPADs ect which normal RWRs do not.

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As for the A-10 and *very few* F-16s, they use along with their RWR several cameras running in real time connected to a computer running a algorithm, this algorithm is scanning the video feed for trails of smoke which could indicate a missile launch such as a MANPAD and warn the pilot. Because this system is optical it means the RWR system in those planes could detect even IR missile launches such as AIM-9s, R-60s, R-73s and the mentioned MANPADs ect which normal RWRs do not.

 

Huh? I thought MWSs are based on the IR/UV signature of the missile, not on smoke, especially as modern missiles don't produce much smoke at all. :huh:

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No, nothing does.

 

I meant in the game, not IRL. I can swear i heard a missile launch around 5:13-5:15 bellow:

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Thats because you have one of the game mode options on, forgot the name, but thats not the RWR.

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Huh? I thought MWSs are based on the IR/UV signature of the missile, not on smoke, especially as modern missiles don't produce much smoke at all. :huh:

 

Watch out when True Grit's Typhoon arrives, it uses millimeter-wave radar to pick up missiles.

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So the way the RWR works is it is a receiver on the aircraft looking for radar signals hitting the aircraft to which it is attached. The system uses the emitters and a computer to interpret the radar waves hitting the emitter and using a data base of signatures determines what the radar belongs to. It then takes the data of strength from the receivers which are being hit and extrapolates the best heading base on the emitters which are being painted. While this works great in 2D space doing so in 3D space would require many more emitters and more processing power to extrapolate from the radar beam the location in 3D space in relation to your aircraft. This is why RWR's can be prone to incorrect directions and in fact the F-14's radar was so powerful that Mig-23 RWR's would get overwhelmed and flip the direction of the emitter by 180 degrees from the actual heading of the F-14.

 

In response to the things which have been posted about the SARH/DL in PD-STT and TWS. The many things posted about the radar giving a chirping at the beginning of a launch is in relation to a Fox 1 launch. The Chirping is a part of the ECCM system on the Tomcat to counter ECM emitted by the target. A Fox 1's tracking requires a radar beam to reflect off of the target and bounce back to the missiles seeker head in order to track the target. This is why reflections off of the ground and chaff can spoof a Fox 1 missile, as the missiles seeker is looking for a radar's beam reflection to guide it to the target.

 

SARH/DL on the other hand is another matter. The system in TWS is using the radar sweeps to build a track on a radar target to enable missile launch on said target. This data is gathered over several sweeps and enables the system to fire on more than one target at the same time. To another point is the system is strained when tracking and updating 6 missiles at once as after all this is 1970's computers after all. So once the track is built the system has a rough idea of the targets trajectory via the radar sweeps. Once the missile is launched the radar stores the track information in memory and continues to extrapolate trajectory via the radar sweeps until unable to do so. If the track is lost the radar will guide the missile to the memory target and will do its best to extrapolate the current altitude and heading of the target from last radar contact and previous data. While in flight the missile is receiving updated guidance via the datalink between the mothership (firing aircraft) and the missiles antenna. This is why the RWR does not notify you of a missile launch in TWS is because it is just a normal radar sweep over the aircraft. The system then uses the TTI from launch to tell the missile to go active a search for a target at a predetermined time. In this case 16 seconds from TTI.

 

When in PD-STT the system is using the same update method to the missile but the radar system on the Tomcat is now hard locked or tracking the single target allowing the computer to update the missiles guidance constantly in flight as the weapons system has to only track one target. The downside the missile is solely reliant on datalink for the updates to its trajectory and will not go active if lock is broken and target is lost. When in STT mode the radar emits a constant beam of energy at the target which the RWR receives as a lock tone similar to a SAM site. However when a Fox 1 launch is commanded the system might be going into a higher powered state which indicates to the target RWR that a missile has been fired. This can sometimes be spoofed by radar operators to trick the target into thinking a missile has been fired when none actually has. This specific radar wave at launch is what the RWR is detecting and what gives you your launch warning. However the Phoenix when fired in PD-STT in SARH/DL mode is not relying on a radar pulse to guide it to the target but the computer onboard the F-14 extrapolating data from the hard lock about the aircrafts current altitude and airspeed and relaying the trajectory updates to the missile to ensure detonation.

 

Also Radar guided missiles only have to be so accurate as they are proximity fuse detonated in real life using their warheads and shrapnel to damage enemy aircraft. This is why radar missiles are so big is to accommodate the larger explosive payload and the shrapnel. IR and TV guided ones can get even closer and sometimes actually come into contact with the aircraft which decreases the explosive needed to damage the aircraft.

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Yes a similar technique to how the R-33 operates. The radar provides updates to the missile mid flight then terminal guidance is provided by a radar lock. This is why you get a launch warning from the Mig-31 during the terminal phase of the R-33's flight to the target.

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So, basically, the Phoenix guides on the data link in all modes except ACM up until the point of terminal guidance, at which point the TWS missile goes active and the STT missile goes semi-active?

 

If it goes semi-active at the same 16 seconds TTI then the range to target at that point would be about where you’d want to launch a Sparrow, so that would make sense.

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So, basically, the Phoenix guides on the data link in all modes except ACM up until the point of terminal guidance, at which point the TWS missile goes active and the STT missile goes semi-active?

 

If it goes semi-active at the same 16 seconds TTI then the range to target at that point would be about where you’d want to launch a Sparrow, so that would make sense.

 

Not quite the case. The missile is still tracking semi-actively via data link. TWS is also semi-active which is why both PD-STT and TWS are tracking in SARH/DL untill the moment they go pittbull or the radar goes flood. I don't think that the radar will change modes though when in PD-STT at a certain time though as the update said SARH/DL all the way to target.

 

P-STT however does not act as SARH/DL and it will give a missile warning all the way to target. This does not matter as much though considering the fact that P-STT is only realy effective up to 30 miles and when your missile has a long burn time and can fly realy fast then you are not as disadvantaged by this.

 

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This specific radar wave at launch is what the RWR is detecting and what gives you your launch warning. However the Phoenix when fired in PD-STT in SARH/DL mode is not relying on a radar pulse to guide it to the target but the computer onboard the F-14 extrapolating data from the hard lock about the aircrafts current altitude and airspeed and relaying the trajectory updates to the missile to ensure detonation.

 

Do you have some proof to show for claiming that the Phoenix is not homing, but rather operates as a command-guided missile, as described by you and contrary to what the weapon manual describes?

 

Also Radar guided missiles only have to be so accurate as they are proximity fuse detonated in real life using their warheads and shrapnel to damage enemy aircraft. This is why radar missiles are so big is to accommodate the larger explosive payload and the shrapnel. IR and TV guided ones can get even closer and sometimes actually come into contact with the aircraft which decreases the explosive needed to damage the aircraft.

 

All missiles can come into contact, direct hits from radar guided AAMs are not surprising. The fuze is there because no missile is necessarily expected to against a maneuvering target, however the miss distances are pretty small - on the order of 5 to 10 feet.

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Hang on let me get this straight, Crash is arguing that not only should the AIM54 not give any launch warning when fired in STT mode, but that it guides in the same way as it would when fired in TWS mode? Yeah, that doesn't sound right does it?

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Do you have some proof to show for claiming that the Phoenix is not homing, but rather operates as a command-guided missile, as described by you and contrary to what the weapon manual describes?

 

What kind of weapon manual are we talking about here? Can you share it with us? :smilewink:

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Hang on let me get this straight, Crash is arguing that not only should the AIM54 not give any launch warning when fired in STT mode, but that it guides in the same way as it would when fired in TWS mode? Yeah, that doesn't sound right does it?

 

Why wouldn't it? In STT the radar energy is focused on one track, providing the WCS with a good update rate on said track, most likely several updates per second. I'll just go out on a limb here and assume that in STT you dont need to sent the missile active like in TWS because of said higher refresh rate of the track - i.e. the guidence is way more accurate, not requiring terminal homing.

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What kind of weapon manual are we talking about here? Can you share it with us? :smilewink:

 

The one that describes how Phoenix works, and no, I cannot. But I'm sure HB has it ;)

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Why wouldn't it? In STT the radar energy is focused on one track, providing the WCS with a good update rate on said track, most likely several updates per second. I'll just go out on a limb here and assume that in STT you dont need to sent the missile active like in TWS because of said higher refresh rate of the track - i.e. the guidence is way more accurate, not requiring terminal homing.

 

The guidance in in the name: SARH. The H stands for homing. It's not any type of command guidance, it is homing.

 

And this aside, the command link would trigger the RWR just like it does for SAMS.

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Well then why should I believe you that you have such a thing?

 

I don't particularly care. In the end I'm not the one making up new guidance modes for the AWG-9/Phoenix based on basically nothing :)

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If it's any consolation, I'm pretty confused about the Phoenix firing in SARH but while being able to engage multiple targets confusing, as to me it just seems like command guidance (i.e. RADAR tracks target, FCS computes a solution and commands sent via D/L to the missile; for multiple targets, RADAR tracks multiple targets and issues commands specific to each missile), rather than the missile homing on reflected RF from the target, which is how I understand SARH missiles work.

 

How it works in my head is that SARH is essentially the same concept as a cat chasing a spot from a laser pointer, just substitute the cat for the Fox 1, and the laser pointer for the RADAR and visible light for RF.

 

How the Phoenix in TWS is more like having 2 people in a dark room, both armed with flashlights. Person A (the launching aircraft) has a more powerful flashlight, and isn't blindfolded and person B (the Phoenix) is blindfolded with their flashlight turned off.

 

Person A can see the target and person B, so person A can tell person B how to move and in what direction to reach the target, once near the target person A tells person B to take off their blindfold and turn on their flashlight so person B can reach the target by themselves.

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I am not making up guidence modes I just want facts +sources not just claims from some random dude.

 

You're right, that wasn't you - I misread something you wrote.

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Thats because you have one of the game mode options on, forgot the name, but thats not the RWR.

 

Huh, i never new there was one! :D

Now true, i haven't flown a combat mission in a FC3 plane in more then 2 and a half years. Is it possible it got activated with some major update? I don't recall having these warning back in the day...... :huh:

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The guidance in in the name: SARH. The H stands for homing. It's not any type of command guidance, it is homing.

 

And this aside, the command link would trigger the RWR just like it does for SAMS.

 

Genuine curiosity:

If some RWR systems can detect the changes in the signal that occur when a missile is launched (such as the command data being "piggy-backed" with the tracking pulses), what is stopping the weapon control system from transmitting the command data at all times? Is it a design choice? Or is does the signal transmitted distinguished by additional data packets, like missile position or such?

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