AIM-54 Changes / new API fixes are live in today's patch

[GGTharos]

The AIM-7 before 7P does not have any INS flight phase. In all cases you launch it inside the seeker DSR cue - there's no data-link, and it must begin homing as soon as it clears the aircraft's radar interference.

[Harlikwin]

 

Huh? I thought MWSs are based on the IR/UV signature of the missile, not on smoke, especially as modern missiles don't produce much smoke at all. :huh:

 

You'd be right. At least on systems built from the 70's through the 2000's. Any guesses about atmospheric transmittance of IR vs UV?

 

Though to be fair, modern systems are more capable and "open minded"

 

[Harlikwin]

So the way the RWR works is it is a receiver on the aircraft looking for radar signals hitting the aircraft to which it is attached. The system uses the emitters and a computer to interpret the radar waves hitting the emitter and using a data base of signatures determines what the radar belongs to. It then takes the data of strength from the receivers which are being hit and extrapolates the best heading base on the emitters which are being painted. While this works great in 2D space doing so in 3D space would require many more emitters and more processing power to extrapolate from the radar beam the location in 3D space in relation to your aircraft. This is why RWR's can be prone to incorrect directions and in fact the F-14's radar was so powerful that Mig-23 RWR's would get overwhelmed and flip the direction of the emitter by 180 degrees from the actual heading of the F-14.

.

 

You got some actual cites for that? The last bit in particular. PM me if you feel its confidential or whatnot. Cuz you mostly sound like you're FOS.

 

 

[Harlikwin]

Hang on let me get this straight, Crash is arguing that not only should the AIM54 not give any launch warning when fired in STT mode, but that it guides in the same way as it would when fired in TWS mode? Yeah, that doesn't sound right does it?

 

Yes, thats what I read as well...

[Harlikwin]

 

I am not buying it. If you could sense DL via the RWR you would most certainly tell the pilot about it. That is extremely important information. I think you are just speculatiing to be honest. I don't know whether there should or should not be a warning which is why I asked the question in the first place but what you are saying does not seem to confirm your suspicions to me. If the RWR gets a missile warning then it simply would not be due to sensing DL as that seems absurd but it would be becuase the radar is chirping to prevent ECM from overwhelming the tracking. I doubt this would be the case though as PD-STT launches are useful over long ranges which would not be the case with a missile warning.

 

Considering also that even the russians had similar missile in the same era which would not give a missile warning up to a certain point when guided in STT as they were fox 1's. I doubt very much that this was an oversight for the US especialy considering the missiles ultimately had the same function. The Mig-31 for example does this and what I have read from others the Phoenix in PD-STT (SARH/DL) does the same thing.

 

Again, I am not saying you are wrong at all. Just that you are not making much sense when talking about the RWR using DL to sense a launch and other are tellingme information to the contrary. So basicaly without the manual or Heatblur actualy saying you or I are right then we won't have the answer.

 

Bottom line is that any RWR could detect that "information" cuz a signal is a signal. But the real question is could it figure out and actually process it (especially in the context of the 70's and 80's). Just because there is an signal there doesn't mean your RWR knows exactly what it is, especially if its not something obvious in between regular pulses of standard doppler RF (or on the same freq, or if your RWR could even tell). And oh joy, lets just assume that information is actually encoded within the PD waveform. It doesn't have to 2 sperate pulses, then the real question becomes can you tell the difference between a regular PD waveform, a "guidance" waveform, and any number of "fake" waveforms.

 

Fun fact, after the Iranian revolution, the US assumed the A model phoenix was "exploited", guess what came very shortly after that...

[Triggerjo23]

 

Yes, thats what I read as well...

 

He is saying that it might as no evidence to the contrary has been given. As stated, other missiles have the ability to track without a missile warning when fired from and STT lock such as the R-33 for example when fired from the MIG-31. What is being used to justify saying that the target recieves no missile warning in STT is that when it is fired from PD-STT it uses SARH/DL as tracking. This is the same as TWS and is essentialy the same in principle as the R-33 which recieves updates mid flight without the need for a missile warning to be given. Some are saying the the RWR can sense the data link which is the main point of contention here as others disagree entirely. So we are up in the air (excuse the pun) over this whole subject as we can not agree and also do not have the information to conclude. Also, another example of STT guiding a fox 3 missile without giving a warning can be found in the F16 which Skysurfer gave an example of.

[Harlikwin]

 

He is saying that it might as no evidence to the contrary has been given. As stated, other missiles have the ability to track without a missile warning when fired from and STT lock such as the R-33 for example when fired from the MIG-31. What is being used to justify saying that the target recieves no missile warning in STT is that when it is fired from PD-STT it uses SARH/DL as tracking. This is the same as TWS and is essentialy the same in principle as the R-33 which recieves updates mid flight without the need for a missile warning to be given. Some are saying the the RWR can sense the data link which is the main point of contention here as others disagree entirely. So we are up in the air (excuse the pun) over this whole subject as we can not agree and also do not have the information to conclude. Also, another example of STT guiding a fox 3 missile without giving a warning can be found in the F16 which Skysurfer gave an example of.

 

Explain to me exactly what you think an STT lock looks like to an RWR vs TWS in your own words.

[FWind]

 

Huh, i never new there was one! :D

Now true, i haven't flown a combat mission in a FC3 plane in more then 2 and a half years. Is it possible it got activated with some major update? I don't recall having these warning back in the day...... :huh:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/english/licensed-third-party-projects/heatblur-simulations/dcs-f-14a-b/7126386-aim-54-changes-new-api-fixes-are-live-in-today-s-patch?p=7138555#post7138555

[FWind]

 

He is saying that it might as no evidence to the contrary has been given. As stated, other missiles have the ability to track without a missile warning when fired from and STT lock such as the R-33 for example when fired from the MIG-31. What is being used to justify saying that the target recieves no missile warning in STT is that when it is fired from PD-STT it uses SARH/DL as tracking. This is the same as TWS and is essentialy the same in principle as the R-33 which recieves updates mid flight without the need for a missile warning to be given. Some are saying the the RWR can sense the data link which is the main point of contention here as others disagree entirely. So we are up in the air (excuse the pun) over this whole subject as we can not agree and also do not have the information to conclude. Also, another example of STT guiding a fox 3 missile without giving a warning can be found in the F16 which Skysurfer gave an example of.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/english/licensed-third-party-projects/heatblur-simulations/dcs-f-14a-b/7126386-aim-54-changes-new-api-fixes-are-live-in-today-s-patch?p=7138555#post7138555

[SgtPappy]

 

He is saying that it might as no evidence to the contrary has been given. As stated, other missiles have the ability to track without a missile warning when fired from and STT lock such as the R-33 for example when fired from the MIG-31. What is being used to justify saying that the target recieves no missile warning in STT is that when it is fired from PD-STT it uses SARH/DL as tracking. This is the same as TWS and is essentialy the same in principle as the R-33 which recieves updates mid flight without the need for a missile warning to be given. Some are saying the the RWR can sense the data link which is the main point of contention here as others disagree entirely. So we are up in the air (excuse the pun) over this whole subject as we can not agree and also do not have the information to conclude. Also, another example of STT guiding a fox 3 missile without giving a warning can be found in the F16 which Skysurfer gave an example of.

 

Sorry if it's been posted already but do we have a source for this? My understanding (though there is not a lot of info out there) is that the MiG-31's PESA radar has such an agile beam that it can guide four R-33's by rapidly illuminating the targets for which the R-33's home in (i.e. once they are in range and done with the midcourse update phase). Therefore, when the R-33 is close enough and midcourse updating is over, the targets should get a warning because to each of them, they are being as illuminated as rapidly as any other STT, non-CW radar would do (i.e. APG-63 in the F-15). If not, then the F-15 should also not give warning because it does not have a CW signal which I think is not true.

[VC]

So what can we expect from Phoenix guidance behaviour API this patch?

[Hawkeye91]

So what can we expect from Phoenix guidance behaviour API this patch?

 

Yeah, did the API changes make it into the patch this time or did ED forget to flip the switch again?

[Xenovia]

Here's to hoping that HB fixed Jester's TWS bugs in today's update

[Triggerjo23]

 

Explain to me exactly what you think an STT lock looks like to an RWR vs TWS in your own words.

 

I think we are speaking to diferent languages here. I know the diference between STT and TWS. Also just because something is a signal does not mean that an RWR can pick it up. Anything outside of what it is tuned to sense is as good as static to a reciever.

[Harlikwin]

 

I think we are speaking to diferent languages here. I know the diference between STT and TWS. Also just because something is a signal does not mean that an RWR can pick it up. Anything outside of what it is tuned to sense is as good as static to a reciever.

 

How does an STT signal look to RWR vs a TWS signal?

 

What do you mean by tuned? Most RWRs have rather broad bandwiths because they have to.

[Triggerjo23]

 

How does an STT signal look to RWR vs a TWS signal?

 

What do you mean by tuned? Most RWRs have rather broad bandwiths because they have to.

 

Are you asking how a TWS signal looks to a bandit vs STT. TWS no lock warning STT lock warning. When missile is launch, TWS no launch warning until missile is pitbul and for STT it depends on the radar mode and the capabilities of both the missiles and radar. Generaly for most modules in DCS it would give a launch warning but some do not do this even with fox 1's. As we were discussing, the Phoenix fired in PD-STT will give only a radar lock warning and not a missile launch warning as it is firing the Phoenix via SA-PD in SARH/DL rather than SA-CW. This is from what I understand but as I said I could be wrong which is why I asked about it here as I am unsure. So far I have not found an answer.

 

"RWR" (Radar Warning Reciever), not Data Link Warning Reciever. Data Link is not transmited over the radar (microwave) spectrum as it is radio.

[dundun92]

Was reading the manual, and found this quote:

In PD-STT (Pulse-Doppler Single Target Track) the AIM-54 will be launched in a pure semi-active mode and be guided in that mode all the way to target without going active. This means that the engaged target will get an immediate engagement warning through its radar warning receiver from the AN/AWG-9 as soon as the AIM-54 leaves the rail. Like in TWS the missile will loft if fired at range.

So in PD-STT at least HB states the target should get a launch warning.

[Harlikwin]

 

Are you asking how a TWS signal looks to a bandit vs STT. TWS no lock warning STT lock warning. When missile is launch, TWS no launch warning until missile is pitbul and for STT it depends on the radar mode and the capabilities of both the missiles and radar. Generaly for most modules in DCS it would give a launch warning but some do not do this even with fox 1's. As we were discussing, the Phoenix fired in PD-STT will give only a radar lock warning and not a missile launch warning as it is firing the Phoenix via SA-PD in SARH/DL rather than SA-CW. This is from what I understand but as I said I could be wrong which is why I asked about it here as I am unsure. So far I have not found an answer.

 

"RWR" (Radar Warning Reciever), not Data Link Warning Reciever. Data Link is not transmited over the radar (microwave) spectrum as it is radio.

 

Tell me why STT pre missile launch is any different than TWS from the standpoint of the RWR.

 

PS, radar works on microwave freqs, as do many DL's.

[TLTeo]

 

Tell me why STT pre missile launch is any different than TWS from the standpoint of the RWR.

 

PS, radar works on microwave freqs, as do many DL's.

 

Because in TWS the radar only sweeps over the target once in a while, while in STT it's staring at it constantly? Honestly, that's pretty basic radar stuff...

[Skysurfer]

 

Tell me why STT pre missile launch is any different than TWS from the standpoint of the RWR.

 

PS, radar works on microwave freqs, as do many DL's.

 

That question is kind of weird. STT is a hard lock while TWS still only scans (nails vs spike).

[GGTharos]

"RWR" (Radar Warning Reciever), not Data Link Warning Reciever. Data Link is not transmited over the radar (microwave) spectrum as it is radio.

 

It's transmitted by the same dish, the same TWT, on the same frequency.

 

Of course, pretty sure it would throw us all for a loop if you were able to name the radio on which the DL is transmitted, if it isn't the radar dish.

[Spiceman]

The AWG-9 transmitter has two TWTs, one for the radar and one for CW. CW is used for SARH illumination and also for AIM-54 Missile Messages which are a modulated version of CW and sent out the CW antenna which is a waveguide opening at the bottom center of the AWG-9 antenna.

 

I hope we're not confusing the AIM-54 missile messages with the LINK-4 datalink which is VHF.

[GGTharos]

The AWG-9 transmitter has two TWTs, one for the radar and one for CW. CW is used for SARH illumination and also for AIM-54 Missile Messages which are a modulated version of CW and sent out the CW antenna which is a waveguide opening at the bottom center of the AWG-9 antenna.

 

That seems unnecessarily complicated - by any chance do you know the reasoning behind this implementation?

 

I hope we're not confusing the AIM-54 missile messages with the LINK-4 datalink which is VHF.

 

Some people seem to be.

[FWind]

The AWG-9 transmitter has two TWTs, one for the radar and one for CW. CW is used for SARH illumination and also for AIM-54 Missile Messages which are a modulated version of CW and sent out the CW antenna which is a waveguide opening at the bottom center of the AWG-9 antenna.

 

I hope we're not confusing the AIM-54 missile messages with the LINK-4 datalink which is VHF.

But AIM-54 used SA-PD in SARH，Is it not used PD transmit messages？

[Spiceman]

But AIM-54 used SA-PD in SARH，Is it not used PD transmit messages？

 

Not sure what you’re saying/asking there...