Struggling mightily in dogfighting

[jasonstory44]

Looking for advice and help. Been trying to just learn the spitfire well rather than hopping all over the place in DCS.

 

I am struggling mightily even against rookie AI in dogfighting. And I know the AI is bad so I must be really struggling. I have trouble finding appropriate lead for my shot and that big nose sure does get in the way. I also don’t know if I am inappropriately managing my power and speed when trying to maneuver. I will often be trailing the enemy and trying to line them up... just finally get them in my sights and pull the trigger and my plane will jolt violently completely changing my lineup and trajectory and I have to try all over again. Am I stalling? Is this expected behavior? I’m getting lost.

 

I modified the stock 2v2 to be 4 enemy vs 2. I can often get one or sometimes two of them before I run out of ammo so I’m not being efficient. My wingman always dies and does nothing.

 

any help or advice greatly appreciated. I am guessing I am just not operating the plane properly.

 

cheers, Jason

[zcrazyx]

Looking for advice and help. Been trying to just learn the spitfire well rather than hopping all over the place in DCS.

 

I am struggling mightily even against rookie AI in dogfighting. And I know the AI is bad so I must be really struggling. I have trouble finding appropriate lead for my shot and that big nose sure does get in the way. I also don’t know if I am inappropriately managing my power and speed when trying to maneuver. I will often be trailing the enemy and trying to line them up... just finally get them in my sights and pull the trigger and my plane will jolt violently completely changing my lineup and trajectory and I have to try all over again. Am I stalling? Is this expected behavior? I’m getting lost.

 

I modified the stock 2v2 to be 4 enemy vs 2. I can often get one or sometimes two of them before I run out of ammo so I’m not being efficient. My wingman always dies and does nothing.

 

any help or advice greatly appreciated. I am guessing I am just not operating the plane properly.

 

cheers, Jason

 

the nose blocking shots is something most warbirds have to deal with, the shaking is normal so i believe countering it is just a matter of practice. as for learning how to shoot and hit targets an understanding of the sight is key as it is fixed and not a gyro, essentially it works based on angles and distance, chucks guide properly explains this https://www.mudspike.com/wp-content/uploads/guides/DCS%20Spitfire%20Mk%20IX%20Guide.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-uSpZROuEd3V25mRlE2TDMzcXc/view

 

I generally like to get close up and deflection shoot targets which is fairly hard to do but devasting to aircraft when learned. I generally set the wing span to suit and the distance at between 200-300 yards, this generally means that when the hostile aircraft is on a 45 degree angle i use the ring to hit, then if its a matter of division, 20ish degrees attitude half way between the pipper and ring etc.

 

I have linked some good reads that may help to alleviate some of the issues, the biggest thing with the spitfire and dogfighting is knowing how to get close in to a target as most aircraft will be able to out run you, this is why i like to use high angle deflection shots on targets from very close in.

[rayrayblues]

The shaking you are experiencing is recoil. It tends to want to drop the nose. Start aiming/firing a little higher to compensate. Make sure you are not jerking the trigger. Just like a real gun, pull, don't jerk the trigger.

[DD_Fenrir]

Hi Jason. Could you save a .trk replay for us to review; it'll be easier to see what's going on and what you're doing rightly or wrongly and give you the correct advice.

 

As a related thing have you seen this?: https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/dcs-world-tutorial-training-range/guides-tutorials/module-specific-tutorials/dcs-spitfire-lf-mk-ix-tutorials/262955-spitfire-too-sensitive-in-pitch-solution

 

It may be a start in helping with some of your control issues.

[Irishlad200000]

No other way than to get behind and wait until you get a close sure shot and keep bursts small. Every bullet counts and its easy to run out of ammo!

 

Just track the enemy and try to mirror his movements and you will eventually get behind him. The time to strike is when he changes direction or straightens up. Keep rpm and power High, but bear in mind the limits and permitted time before your engine may pop!

 

Ideally keep altitude high, but just go with the flow. The more you do it the smoother you will be. I'm a wanna be fighter pilot lol, but all I have done is got my licence and bought a light aircraft. Have about 100hrs on the rains!

 

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[jasonstory44]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I’ll try and post a track...I fly to n VR. Are there issues with the tracks recorded in VR?

[john4pap]

May be a long shot, but could it be a problem with your input curve? That you get too enthusiastic when firing and lose some control? I find the Spitfire's pitch being too sensitive for my desktop joystick and the only way to control it is by adding an extreme custom curve without dead zone. It is something like 2-4-6-8-10-12-14-16-18-33-84 (Chief Instructor's suggestion if I'm not mistaken).

 

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[jasonstory44]

Thanks guys...changing the curve made all the difference from what I was used to with jets. Are all warbirds like this? Don't recall it in the mustang

[john4pap]

Thanks guys...changing the curve made all the difference from what I was used to with jets. Are all warbirds like this? Don't recall it in the mustang

The only other WW2 plane I have is the bf109 and it's nothing close to the spit. I think I use a curvature of 35ish with 5 dead zone for pitch for that one.

 

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[borisbarzotto]

you must make the opponent enter your game, before that keep your energy high until he makes the mistake, be patience. Know spits regime limitations, learn to recognize by ear the engine sound details (high RPM, mid RPM, boost, etc) so you don't take your eyes off the contact in a dogfight, don't worry about the difficult refraction shots for now, worry about getting as close as you can without burning the engine in the attempt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steda]

Don't want to start another threat for the same reason, so I'll reactivate this one instead.

Started DCS about a month ago, build a PC, invested in a Rig with Hotas, Pedals and Playseat, bought the Spitfire, WWII asset and Normandy map just to be thrown right down on the ground realizing that this is way harder than I thought.

I can takeoff, fly around and land without catching fire, tipping over, tailspinning or scraping the wings (that doesn't mean I can land perfectly either ). Took me some weeks... but I think I'm getting close to fly decent enough.

 

But as soon as it comes to fighting I'm dead in an instant. Impossible to hit a BF109 or FW190. At least I'm not killing the engine anymore .

And if I get some hits, the other bandit is behind me (since my AI Wingman is dead even before me) and I get shredded to pieces. The moment I realize I'm getting hammered, my aircraft is torn to pieces. Not even a chance  to react and "evade".

I'm working an eternity to get behind the enemy, fire a million rounds, maybe land a couple of hits, even got a BF109 to smoke like a chimney once and was happy I finally got a kill but that thing kept flying like nothing happened.

Couple of minutes later, the second bandit is behind me, brrrrt.... dead.

 

I can't find a way to set a difficulty level for the instant actions or missions, it just seems it is on "god mode" per default.

I'm trying to follow every tip and trick I can find, but I'm getting shot without even knowing someone's behind me...

Maybe the Spitfire is too difficult to start with so should I start with another aircraft first?!

 

[john4pap]

You got all the right equipment, so there is nothing wrong picking the Spitfire as your first warbird. Check the discussions about adjusting the curves so you're comfortable with it. Also, practice making coordinated turns. I would suggest skipping the single player missions for your training and go straight to multiplayer (LFDM server is very nice place to start). After you get beaten hard for a couple of weeks you're going to start getting the feel of the aircraft. I presume you already know the the Spitfire is a great turner, but you have to get the feel of its limits to be able to use this advantage in dogfighting. After that you may turn back to single player.

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[Helles Belle]

Gday @Steda,

It sounds like you're on the right path.

There is good information in this and other threads to help you out.

Learning to fly the girl first is obviously the right way to go and it appears you are doing well there.

 

Next thing, learning how to fight.

Personally I don't use the instant action missions etc. I would start with building a very simple mission in ME with just you and one other enemy.

I find in a situation with multiple enemy, they all seem to know I'm not AI and I end up with all of them on my tail.

 

Give the enemy a low skill level and see how you go. Gradually work your way up skill levels and see how you go.

Then you can add a bit of complexity with 2on2 etc. (just dont tell your wing man to "Cover me" they'll shoot everything down before you do, do that later when you need them to)

Keep, your A/C energy up. Dont get too slow and stay out of a hard turning fight to start with.

If you get behind the enemy, hold off the temptation to pull the trigger and start firing.

Follow them for a while and see what they do. Learn how the AI reacts.

Also, get closer, I know the guns are set for 300 yards, but I subscribe to Erich Hartmanns rule, get in close. (+ it looks better watching stuff get blown off the other A/C)

Practice with shooting at Ju-88's in small numbers as well, start with no more than three.

Mix up the angles you attack with to get a good idea of deflection shooting, and the perspective and size of the A/C in you windsheild etc so you have an idea of how much lead to give.

This will help with dogfighting against fighters as well.

 

Before long you'll be doing it in your sleep, flying back to base, reloading (hopefully not repairing) and back out again for another mission.

Most of all "Stick with it"

 

Cheers

HB

[Steda]

Thank You for Your tips, I wouldn't dare to start Multiplayer if I'm not able to shoot some AI's down first. Don't want to be the noob that gets killed every time and not being of any help to the team. But I will give it a try.

 

Setting up a mission was apparently too easy to figure out by myself . I will do exactly that this evening!

Anyway, thank You all.

 

 

 

[zcrazyx]

The spitfire is a great first choice for a warbird to dog fight in as it gives you the capability to turn away from danger, it does however have a few quirks to get used to, i would start with learning the gunsight as it seems simple enough however actually applying it is another story, i recommend searching Chucks guide on the spitfire as it includes a period ww2 gunnery paper including the sight, next i would suggest turning down the ai difficulty as suggested before, ai in dcs are notorious for being ufo like in their behaviour, the mig 15 and mig 21 modules are perfect examples of this.

 

you may find going up against a player somewhat easier as humans are fallable to blind spots more so then ai, not to mention a human is far less likely to be able to perfectly fly the aircraft under pressure.

 

next up, if you can safely fly without cooking the engine i would suggest seeing just how far you can push it as you may find you can push it far beyond the manual specifications for short bursts at a time.

 

another thing to play around with is the belts which were recently added as they have different properties, armour peircing, high explosives and tracers generally are in a mix. 

 

getting closer to the opponent and deflection shooting will often yeild the best results as you are far more likely to hit critical componants on the aircraft, fuel tanks, wing spars, pilot, engine and cooling as examples.

 

furthermore i would advise looking for videos of people flying the spitfire as it may help to indicate the best ways to get on the tail of a hostile aircraft, be it cutting inside the turning radius of the lead aircraft at your aircrafts best turning speed.

 

i dont have a video of my fights combined against players however i do have one that demonstrates energy fighting decently well.

 

You will often find in the spitfire that your opponents can out run, out climb and out gun you at distance, knowing when to turn, when to shoot, when to dive and when to break away is vital.

 

additionally i wouldn't put yourself down if you do happen to get shot down, we have a mid war aircraft going up against late war aircraft so you will have to fly exeptionally well to compensate for an older model.

Edited December 29, 2020 by zcrazyx

[john4pap]

Thank You for Your tips, I wouldn't dare to start Multiplayer if I'm not able to shoot some AI's down first. Don't want to be the noob that gets killed every time and not being of any help to the team. But I will give it a try.
 
Setting up a mission was apparently too easy to figure out by myself . I will do exactly that this evening!
Anyway, thank You all.
 

Don't worry about starting multiplayer now (I was in the past). There are many people who play multiplayer without playing as in a team and there are all skills to be found in multiplayer. The reason I suggest multiplayer is because you get realistic dogfighting with proper physics (AI is both UFO and unimaginative) AND you learn faster.

Happy flights!

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[Steda]

Thanks again for all the tips. I managed to destroy a JU88 but still... it is hard. I imagine if I had to be a fighter pilot in those times I would have survived like 10 seconds after enemy contact  

It is hard, and I mean really hard... 

 

Will look at the video this evening and maybe join multiplayer.