Request: Skins That Fit the Maps and Assets We Have in DCS

[LanceCriminal86]

 

If nothing else, the raw tedium of editing 8 texture files 10-12 times per livery is why I haven't been more prolific. I'm willing to help pull this effort forward, but I think a lot of us are holding up to see how this feature shakes out. If it's handled poorly (which I doubt) I won't have a lot of interest in contributing more.

 

It's not just that, it's the fact that fixes to the visual models WILL require redoing multiple textures. That's what I've tried to say about the small number of skins at release, and why we aren't seeing floods of them coming from HB. There are model corrections apparently in the pipe and they do affect both A AND B model skins. I've detailed this in the skinner's thread with screenshots of what needs to be changed, but one of them I have no idea what the fix will look like.

 

If the model fixes aren't already in their skinner's hands, what's the point of doing work you will certainly have to re-do in the near future? But those points seem to fall differently on the ears of folks that have never done this at even an amateur level like mine. The best I've ever been able to draw is terrible stick figures, I'm not an artist. I've just taken a little time to learn Photoshop's tools like the pen tool and ask a LOT of questions, and make the rest up by sheer ADHD power and not being phased by monotonous workflows of saving, copying, pasting, reloading textures, and continuing that loop until the skin looks how I want it. And then throwing the whole thing in the trash because I'm not happy with it and doing it all over again from scratch after I realize I have to make new stencils because this squadron uses a font or color or size not used by any other squadrons I had for references.

 

 

To those desiring these skins: Help gather resources. Start trolling places like Gonavy.jp, find the cruises, the BuNO and MODEX of the jets, and then start searching for photos of those jets on those cruises. Start gathering the materials and you might find why this often is no small undertaking. Take special note of stencils, CVW logos, any names and callsigns if you can actually see them, how much corrosion control paint there was, were they using later hi-vis or TPS, etc.

[KingKenny04]

As to everything else: "to get the historical experiences that were marketed to me when I bought the maps?"

 

I don't recall specific historical experiences being marketed to me when I bought any maps OR the Tomcat, or any Heatblur insinuation that we'd be getting some complete experience around a particular flashpoint or conflict. Only that we'd be getting a 90s B model Tomcat and an A model that was contemporary to our B, the Forrestal (and originally described as -Class but now who knows), and AI A-6E and KA-6.

 

From Heatblur's May 2018 development update:

The F-14A will have a historically-based campaign that takes place in the Persian Gulf Map – taking direct inspiration from real deployments and combat events in the theater from 1987-88. This closely matches the timeframe of the module itself and the aircraft as equipped.

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...paigns-content

 

The linked PDF from Heatblur on the F-14A campaign essentially describes the campaign as being based directly on the events of Operation Earnest Will:

The Persian Gulf map presents a wonderful opportunity to merge existing or pending assets within DCS to create a compelling Naval warfare campaign centered on the F-14A. This campaign aspires to recreate and build upon true events of 1987-88 during which the US Navy fought an undeclared war against Iran. While the player will view these scenarios through the lens of a Naval aviator, operations in the Gulf of Oman and Strait of Hormuz involved a wide range of USN units and capabilities.Combat missions associated with Operation Earnest Will during 1987 and 1988 offers an excellent opportunity for creating realistic DCS campaign scenarios for the DCS: F-14A and the DCS: Strait of Hormuz map. It combines a real operation (largest USN operation since WWII) with an available DCS map and a DCS module placed into the correct era for the operation

 

From the DCS product page for the Syria map:

In the 20th and 21st centuries, this map is home to the many conflicts including the 6 Day War, the 1982 Lebanon War, air operations over the Bekaa Valley, and the most recent operations against Isis.

 

But I am saying that they are probably not going to suddenly halt the other skins just because we don't have the ships that match their deployments.

 

I'm neither saying they should nor asking them to halt progress on skins already being made. Again, you're putting words into my mouth and arguing against points that I am not trying to make in the first place.

 

I also don't get your line about "why do I have to rely on modders". This isn't like Bethesda "relying on modders" to fix their game and make up for its faults. This is simply an issue of massive amounts of work and demand on a very small number of people doing the skinning. Yet instead of saying "hell yeah let's start a community skin pack", you're saying you'd rather have HB do it. Which basically says middle finger to the skinners because our work isn't good enough. Or maybe you're saying because you want to have it be a default skin, in which case I must again remind you: what makes you think the HB skin you are expecting to happen will come from the HB guy and not from a community skinner? What if that's the winning skin from the competition? What if one of us submits it behind closed doors and just happens to get accepted because they like the idea of a couple historic skins to go with the boat? Do you complain that ED has been integrating community skins in the F-16 and the F/A-18? Do you believe that compromises the quality of the product?

 

You are again putting words in my mouth, and this time you're straw-manning me on top of it. I am NOT insulting anybody. I am NOT saying HB should be the only ones to make skins.

 

There are a great many community skins of very high quality, and if Heatblur want to make those official skins and add them into the game, I think it's a great way to get necessary skins in-game without increasing the workload on HB. The point you're missing is that Heatblur and Eagle Dynamics are the only ones who can make the decision on which skins are added to the game. The fact that community skins exist has no bearing on whether or not they are added to the game. This can only happen if Heatblur and/or Eagle Dynamics decide to make it happen. If somebody decides to make any of the liveries in question as part of the competition, and they win and are added to the game, I'll be ecstatic. The point I'm trying to make is that HB and/or ED should make this happen. If they want to do it with community skins, fine. I have absolutely no problem with that. But add them to the base game. Don't limit us to purely fictional scenarios with mismatched assets, which right now is our only option for mission-making unless I want to force people to download a bunch of loose skins of varying quality (unless I get lucky with one CVW).

 

[LanceCriminal86]

If I know Heatblur, they probably already intended to have skins that matched their campaigns.

 

Help me help you. Start digging up the references and I'll take a peek at them, or try to get them in front of some other guys who are working Tomcat skins. I'll try to get some stuff in front of the HB skin guy if I can after the holiday and maybe verify if he's had any guidance to have skins that match the campaigns and Forrestal boats or not.

[KingKenny04]

If I know Heatblur, they probably already intended to have skins that matched their campaigns.

 

Help me help you. Start digging up the references and I'll take a peek at them, or try to get them in front of some other guys who are working Tomcat skins. I'll try to get some stuff in front of the HB skin guy if I can after the holiday and maybe verify if he's had any guidance to have skins that match the campaigns and Forrestal boats or not.

 

I tried to put something like that together several months ago and it wound up moved to the wishlist forum and buried. It was meant to be a collection of resources and references rather than a wishlist but I guess the powers-that-be didn't see it that way.

 

I have a FOIA request ready to go for Naval History and Heritage Command but I'm waiting for them to reply to an email I sent last week before I send it, just in case a FOIA request is not needed. I'm specifically targeting reference photos for Ranger's '87 cruise but if they tell me I need to send a FOIA request, I'll add Forrestal's '88 cruise to it, just in case there is an issue and we only get Forrestal at first. I won't bother with a thread until I have photos to post, hopefully that will keep it from getting moved.

[LanceCriminal86]

 

I tried to put something like that together several months ago and it wound up moved to the wishlist forum and buried. It was meant to be a collection of resources and references rather than a wishlist but I guess the powers-that-be didn't see it that way.

 

I have a FOIA request ready to go for Naval History and Heritage Command but I'm waiting for them to reply to an email I sent last week before I send it, just in case a FOIA request is not needed. I'm specifically targeting reference photos for Ranger's '87 cruise but if they tell me I need to send a FOIA request, I'll add Forrestal's '88 cruise to it, just in case there is an issue and we only get Forrestal at first. I won't bother with a thread until I have photos to post, hopefully that will keep it from getting moved.

 

I'm already finding what I need, cruise book for 1987 + Bert Kinzey book on Pacific Tomcat squadrons is already telling me what I needed to know. VF-1, 1987 cruise book shows late Hi-Vis with color tails and snazzy CAG jet, same with 1988 photos. VF-2, cruise book has a bunch of Bio's photos in there that match the photos I'm seeing in Kinzey's book for 1988, so there may be some changeups in there or it even looks like they had some jets in tactical scheme, some jets in the overall light gull gray with color markings. Tails looked like the 1987 style with the bounty hunter skull and tricolor band on the tail. Mid 1988 though apparently they switched back to the flashy overall gull gray, fuselage band under the cockpit for the CO/CAG jets, blue rudders with two stars, and yellow fin caps. So either they had Bio grab some pics from the shoebox from later on to do the cruise book or they changed their paint mid cruise or something. Cruise books show she set sail in July '87 and returned in Dec '87 after being in the Persian Gulf supporting Kuwaiti tankers. Now, some of the photos from Kinzey's book are showing from June 1987, the month before the cruise. So it's possible between then and the cruise that at least the CO and CAG jets may have gotten or retained the old style scheme, and after the cruise the other jets had it reapplied. During the cruise VF-2 had the "E" award. Actually, one of the "Straggler" pages of the '87 cruise book shows Bullet 200 on the CAT ready to launch, no color bands on the fuselage under the canopy. The full color scheme may have come back later or they dug old pics out from Bio for their cover page.

 

I probably can't post stuff from the Kinzey book but this decal sheet matches what I'm seeing in the cruise book and his photos for VF-2. I think best bet is to go with the below for VF-2 for that cruise period, with a mix of tactical scheme jets and semi color jets like below:

 

 

I can get the BuNOs from gonavy.jp and another book I have, from there I can search for photos. Plenty of FB groups where guys like Bio post their photos, bound to be some from that cruise in there.

[LanceCriminal86]

Red Rippers and Tomcatters in 1988, plenty of references there as well. Red rippers were same as the decal sheet from my last reply minus the E and S on the tails.

 

Tomcatters you get the nice hi-vis tails with Felix, black noses, and glare stripe.

 

Both photos here 1988 on Forrestal:

 

 

 

 

 

[KingKenny04]

I don't know if this helps anybody, but NHHC has yearly operations reports for a bunch of squadrons going back through the 70s.

 

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/archives/command-operations-reports/aviation-commands.html

 

If you click "VFA" you can find a bunch that used to be VFs. Not every squadron has had their reports digitized so some will probably require writing an email and hoping somebody can find and scan it for you, but right off the bat I can see they have VF-2 in there.

[LanceCriminal86]

Lebanon 1982/83

 

VF-14 has a simple tactical scheme and subdued Tophat on the tails. CO/CAG bird I believe only had the same but the tophat's ring was filled in white.

 

 

Swordsmen may have still had color tails and the late hi-vis scheme, overall gull gray with glare stripe and tan nose, color markings. For this one, going to have to call in a specialist like @_YaeSakura_ to draw the tails. I have them in a book here, it's the Tomcat leaning on a yellow sword with a red pirate bandana on his head.

Photos from the cruise book also showed them with the simple color sword on the tail. Some jets even had a grat tactical scheme radome.

https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv62-84/352.htm

 

For Lebanon '84, BeDevilers and Sluggers on Saratoga:

 

Having a tougher time finding VF-74 pics from the cruise, but they basically should be lo-vis tac scheme but with color versions of their tails. No idea if either squadron had CO jets in light gull gray but the cruise book photos of the whole air wing seemed to show a pair of Tomcats in light gull gray. Looks like they were 103s:

https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv60-84/554.htm

 

This pic is from '85 but basically this:

 

VF-103 is pretty simple, mostly tactical scheme except maybe two stragglers in well worn LGG. Tails have the arrow in gray, but it looks like some or all had a yellow innerline. Can't find any postable photos but similar to the arrow on the B model skin.

 

Between some of my books, a few sites I frequent, Facebook, and some other resources I think it'll be easy to accomplish. Some of the hi-vis schemes are already done by others, they would just need some adjustment to fit the specific cruises. One would need some custom tailwork for VF-32, but the rest I don't see being a problem at all.

 

 

There are some usable references for the A-6E and A-7E squadrons but not much of a point starting there quite yet, with no modules to even think about painting. But the Tomcats can be done for sure.

 

The CAG/CO jets aren't even that fancy here so really it should be easy to make a dynamic MODEX compatible blank skin.

[Swordsman422]

Furball Aero put out a decal sheet covering that VF-32 livery from the Lebanon cruise. I have a copy of it and can scan the tail art.

[LanceCriminal86]

I have a book showing it as well and Yae is pretty good at freehanding/tracing decals. If not him there are a couple of dudes that could probably do it as a commission if needed even.