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Mirage F1 project update


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On 12/19/2020 at 12:32 PM, Fearsome-13 said:

This is fantastic news. I am most definitely looking forward to the F1 in DCS.

 

As a young South African boy going to airshows,  I can always remember the F1s being the highlight of the program, except for the C-130.

 

I believe that South Africa was the launch customer for the F1C, and I do not think that there were too many differences between the French and South African variants (bar maybe the English layout in the cockpit).

 

Mirage F1 in SAAF service

 

The F1 has been my favorite fighter jet for many many, years followed closely by the F-16.

 

I cannot wait to see this F1 in DCS, and I know I will be making some SAAF textures for it before long.

 

I am not sure if I could get my hands on information for the F1AZ (Ground attack variant), but perhaps that could be a possibility one day? The F1A was also used by Libya.

 

Keep 'em coming!

seconded. having had access to the SAAF musuem F1C that scored a mig kill in Angola, I have always loved the F1. I am so glad they are taking their time and fleshing it out. Really looking forward to having another jet that can be red or bluefor.

20120418-F1CZ1.jpg

IMG_1992And8moreF1CZ.jpg

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Obviously I know that this is a work in progress, but i'm wondering if we know the weapons that will be availible for the F1CE that will be the first one available. will we see 530 and super 530F? Technically depending where in it's life they are they should have it. Also wonder if it will get the

Matra Corail dispenser shown in the picture here, since the F1 doesn't come with internal chaff and flare.

 

Overall i'm extremely excited for the F1CE and the other versions that wil be coming availible. I think it's going to be an interesting opponent for the MiG 21 Bis. With the Bis being more powerful thrust to weight wise, but with better radar and guns and slightly better systems in the F1, and if super 530F is availible it will have a slight edge

200827094157180550.jpg


Edited by CrazyGman
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I wouldn't be surprised if many server admins decided to add the F1 to Redfor to fly alongside MiGs. IMHO it would make historical sense - the Iraqi Air Force used both types concurrently during the Iran-Iraq war. 


Edited by _Firefly

DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7M AirGuard / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / MiG-21 Bison / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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On 1/31/2021 at 1:35 PM, CrazyGman said:

since the F1 doesn't come with internal chaff and flare.

While that is true for many versions, most eventually got upgraded to include internal countermeasure dispensers as far as I know. According to comment from aviodev facebook page, Spanish versions had them: https://www.facebook.com/Aviodev/photos/a.339029962892146/3369787473149698/?comment_id=3375785142549931&reply_comment_id=3376080415853737&__tn__=R*F

As for it being a good opponent for MiG-21Bis, well yes and no. It should be considerably more agile, and can use up to 4 AIM-9L or Ms, which can lock from any angle, and outrange MiG's missiles. But at least it will be a closer opponent than most current fast jets other than F-5E. Don't exactly know if Cyrano IVM radar can do look down. Mirage will have R530 missiles in both IR and SARH types, but as far as I know they are really not that good against maneuvering fighters. Normally Spanish Mirage F1s weren't Super 530 capable, but some they have bought second hand from Qatar were (F1EDA version). If we get Super 530s, that would be a pretty considerable advantage over MiG. Only advantage I can think of for the MiG is in thrust to weight ratio, especially more so with emergency afterburner mode in low level.

 

Finally redfor Mirage F1 thing is interesting, because most Mirage F1 operators that could be considered redfor actually used either air to ground optimized or truly multirole versions. Latest Iraqi F1EQ5 and EQ6 had a targeting pod, laser guided missiles and bombs, Exocet, and I think even anti radar missiles, along with all aspect IR and medium range radar guided missiles. Iran sort of inherited some of those fron Iraq when they escaped there. The other operator I can think of, Libya, used F1A series, which were very much air to groun optimized. They had a smaller radar that was optimized for ranging and I think also ground mapping, but  not sure of the latter. They also had a built in laser range finder / designator under the nose, similar to Klen on Su-25. The ones we are getting will be more dogfighters than strikers.

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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The bog standard R530 has zero capability against a maneuvering target. It was designed for non maneuvering bomber types.

 

Its Influence and contact fuzing had severe issues with the arming sequence that occurred immediately after launch. This resulted in hazardous pre mature detonations right in front of the launching aircraft, certainly on the Mirage IIIO/E.

 


Edited by IvanK
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Great! Some Recee missions would be a good idea, we have A2A and A2G but no recee in DCS yet, so a CR/CT variant?...

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M-2000C. Mirage F1. F/A-18C Hornet. F-15C. F-5E Tiger II. MiG-29 "Fulcrum".  Avatar: Escadron de Chasse 3/3 Ardennes. Fly like a Maineyak.

 

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On 2/2/2021 at 6:26 AM, WinterH said:



As for it being a good opponent for MiG-21Bis, well yes and no. It should be considerably more agile, and can use up to 4 AIM-9L or Ms, which can lock from any angle, and outrange MiG's missiles.

From what I read the Spanish didn't have the AIM 9 L or M

They originally had the AIM 9E and Eventually the J which is eqivelent to a P or P5 AIM 9, at least until the F1M upgrades which probably allowed them to carry the L and M.

 

For the upgraded Mirage F1M, it will have an advantage over the MiG 21 Bis with systems and weapons for sure, but for the earlier E, and C models it will be a pretty equal fight, espesially if they only have the R530 and AIM 9E or AIM J.

 

I still think you could do a pretty good job subbing the spanish version in is as a red force plane on the cold war servers. 

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Can we stop saying F1 is a good red air jet ??

Mirage F1 hasnt been sold to a single red country. They all went to very blue countries (france/spain/greece) or to non-aligned countries (most of them being blue-ish as well).

I'm kinda tired to see all non F-teen aircraft sent to redfor because of ignorance and/or convenience.

 

If you make a post 1991 scenario, then it has nothing to do with blue/red and you might as well put F-16 in the non-freeduuum side then.

 

You can put all the mig 21 and 23 on the red side.

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2 hours ago, hip3rion said:

Can we stop saying F1 is a good red air jet ??

Mirage F1 hasnt been sold to a single red country. They all went to very blue countries (france/spain/greece) or to non-aligned countries (most of them being blue-ish as well).

I'm kinda tired to see all non F-teen aircraft sent to redfor because of ignorance and/or convenience.

 

If you make a post 1991 scenario, then it has nothing to do with blue/red and you might as well put F-16 in the non-freeduuum side then.

 

You can put all the mig 21 and 23 on the red side.

 

Mirage F.1 is definitely a blue aircraft produced and used by NATO France, Spain and Greece.

But more than 100 Mirage F.1E and B had been used by Iraq in two all out wars against US made aircrafts, during Iraq-Iran war against F-5E/F-4E/F-14A and Desert Storm against F-15C NATO coalition (but this last was obviously rather one sided). Ecuador used them against Soviet built Su-22.

So i guess it depends on scenario.


Edited by bies
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4 minutes ago, bies said:

Mirage F.1 is definitely a blue aircraft.

The variants we are getting indeed are. Although, I think earlier batches of Iraqi EQs weren't as capable and multirole as EQ5 or 6. Maybe EE can be considered an ok approximation of those in Iran-Iraq war kind of scenarios?

 

As for the AIM-9 versions, I have read in a few places that Spanish F.1s were equipped with AIM-9 Juli, which, as far as I know, is an upgraded 9J that has a seeker similar to later L/M sidewinders. Although I also recall reading 9L/M somewhere else, which wouldn't be infeasible after Spain got Hornets and new sidewinders I suppose. Regardless though, even 4x AIM-9P5 or 4x AIM-9 Juli armed Mirage F.1 would outclass MiG-21Bis considerably in my opinion, whose options of decent missiles are all finicky like R-60M, R-13M1, and R-3R. Not saying I'm not looking forward to try to go up against Mirage in my mig and vice versa 🙂

 

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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33 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Although, I think earlier batches of Iraqi EQs weren't as capable and multirole as EQ5 or 6.

 

I have to admit i don't know what was the difference between Spanish F.1E and Iraq F.1E except E/Q distinction obviously.

 

After all Iraq F.1E was the same analog avionics aircraft with the same airframe armed with Matra Magic, radar guided R530, Exocet.

Probably every variant for every state had some slight difference, maybe IFF, or ECM if F.1 had one?

 

But i would be interested in reading about specific differences between Spanish and Iraq "E" variants and if our DCS "E" could reasonably imitate Iraq standard also.


Edited by bies
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17 minutes ago, bies said:

But i would be interested in reading about specific differences between Spanish and Iraq "E" variants and if our DCS "E" could reasonably imitate Iraq standard also.

I don't fully know all of them, but the latest two batches of Iraqi EQ were very capable, and in their time period, they were the only truely multirole variants that could do air to air and all sorts of precision strike missions. With their ability to use Super 530, Exocet, ATLIS targeting pod, AS30 laser homing missiles, even Kh-29L, and I think also Armat anti radar missiles, they were really quite different from other Mirage F.1E series. So ours will surely not represent those, but the earlier Mirage F.1EQs didn't have *all* of these features, so maybe we can reasonably represent them. I couldn't find much info myself, but apparently batches before the EQ-5 weren't exocet capable at least.

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Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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2 hours ago, bies said:

 

Mirage F.1 is definitely a blue aircraft produced and used by NATO France, Spain and Greece.

But more than 100 Mirage F.1E and B had been used by Iraq in two all out wars against US made aircrafts, during Iraq-Iran war against F-5E/F-4E/F-14A and Desert Storm against F-15C NATO coalition (but this last was obviously rather one sided). Ecuador used them against Soviet built Su-22.

So i guess it depends on scenario.

 

And more relevant to DCS, Iran flies the F1 to this day.

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10 hours ago, hip3rion said:

Can we stop saying F1 is a good red air jet ??

Mirage F1 hasnt been sold to a single red country. They all went to very blue countries (france/spain/greece) or to non-aligned countries (most of them being blue-ish as well).

I'm kinda tired to see all non F-teen aircraft sent to redfor because of ignorance and/or convenience.

 

If you make a post 1991 scenario, then it has nothing to do with blue/red and you might as well put F-16 in the non-freeduuum side then.

 

You can put all the mig 21 and 23 on the red side.

are you kidding me? the mirage F1 almost serves/ed in more redfor countries than blue hahaha!
image.png

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9 hours ago, wackomedic911 said:

are you kidding me? the mirage F1 almost serves/ed in more redfor countries than blue hahaha!
image.png

Here we have the ignorance I was talking about ...

Time to study history :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement

 

So yes, they're all either blue or non-aligned (some of them very friendly to the blue side). African and middle-eastern doesn't mean "evil communist country that needs freedom".

 

Iran F-1s weren't exactly due to a sale either, more of a unique historical twist.

 

As far as post 1991 scenarii, I'll repost my comment then

Quote

If you make a post 1991 scenario, then it has nothing to do with blue/red and you might as well put F-16 in the non-freeduuum side then.

 

 

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On 2/8/2021 at 5:18 AM, WinterH said:

The variants we are getting indeed are. Although, I think earlier batches of Iraqi EQs weren't as capable and multirole as EQ5 or 6. Maybe EE can be considered an ok approximation of those in Iran-Iraq war kind of scenarios?

 

As for the AIM-9 versions, I have read in a few places that Spanish F.1s were equipped with AIM-9 Juli, which, as far as I know, is an upgraded 9J that has a seeker similar to later L/M sidewinders. Although I also recall reading 9L/M somewhere else, which wouldn't be infeasible after Spain got Hornets and new sidewinders I suppose. Regardless though, even 4x AIM-9P5 or 4x AIM-9 Juli armed Mirage F.1 would outclass MiG-21Bis considerably in my opinion, whose options of decent missiles are all finicky like R-60M, R-13M1, and R-3R. Not saying I'm not looking forward to try to go up against Mirage in my mig and vice versa 🙂

 

Nah. Against F-5 with 2 AIM 9P5's and Viggens with 4 RB-74s the MiG 21Bis with 4xR60m's is still a bit better then both. At least in the battles I've had against them in multiplayer.

A Mirage F1 with 4 x AIM 9 juli, which are basically P5 (not L's) will be a little less nimble then the F-5 but be faster and more powerful, power to weight wise. It will still be less powerful then the BIS by a large Margin and will struggle against it at low alt and slow speed.. It's guns and possibly it's gunsight on the early version might give it the edge in slashing attacks. The radars won't make much of a difference since the early F1C won't have look down shoot down either.

 

With the F1EE we can have a rough equivelent of the Iraq F1 for some fights against Iranian F-14As, and F-5s. Yeah the fight will still be in the F-14s favor, but even now if a F-14 gets by itself against 2-3 MiG 21Bis in multiplayer it frequently dies with the BIS that just having vanilia R-60s.


Edited by CrazyGman
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49 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

 

Red Air just means non-NATO. Not nessesarily a communist state.

 

No it doesn't. By that definition, France was a redfor country up to 2009 and Sweden, Australia, Japan and South Korea are still "redfor" countries.

 

A better definition (not that there is any one perfect definition) is a country whose foreign policy is somehow at odds with that of the US and/or the rest of the Western world.

 

edit oh and the EE we're getting is not comparable to an Iraqi one really. It's just a CE with a better navigation and attack suite. The F1M will be more comparable to the Iraqi jets, at least in air to air, because it should be capable to fire the Super 530.


Edited by TLTeo
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Fine.....Blue means NATO, (and France never actually fully left NATO) and countries with "mutual defense treaties". Red means possible adversaries, and in the 80's and 90's a number of them had Mirage F1's.

 

Also if they include the second hand F1E from Qatar, those were Super 530F capable. So it's quite possible they'll have the function available for the F1EE as even the Spanish F1EE had the updated Hud, computer, and radar (yes not as modern as the M but still the same system that could fire the super 530F as far from what my reading can tell).


Edited by CrazyGman
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20 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

Also if they include the second hand F1E from Qatar, those were Super 530F capable. So it's quite possible they'll have the function available for the F1EE as even the Spanish F1EE had the updated Hud, computer, and radar (yes not as modern as the M but still the same system that could fire the super 530F as far from what my reading can tell).

Those would be the F1M as far as I understand, not the original EEs that Spain got.

 

1 hour ago, henshao said:

Did Mirage F1 get lookdown-shootdown radar/missile?

Only the earliest variants of the Cyrano radar lacked look down/shoot down capability. It's unclear what BVR missiles will be carried by each variant though.

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