Mirage F1 project update

[potatoman530]

Did the Spanish mirage F1 versions use any BVR weapons?

 

 

 

 

[Get_Lo]

7 hours ago, potatoman530 said:

Did the Spanish mirage F1 versions use any BVR weapons?

 

 

 

 

Sort of. They obviosuly had and used R.530 SARH missiles which had good range for their day but the Spanish actually did acquire 50-60 Super 530F missiles in the 90s when they purchased the Iraqi Mirage F1EDAs. they put the Iraqi jets in storage but I dont see why they wouldnt use the Super 530s on their own jets considering it was the best missile they had by a lot. I havent seen any pictures or heard anything about them actually putting the Super 530s on their own mirage F1s but i hope Aerges decides to allow us to do so (if not on the CE/BE than at least the EE upgrade to make it even more special) (I also think the EE's radar upgrade package permitted the guidance of Super 530s, unsure if the standard Cyrano IV of the CE and BE allowed such operations) 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Get_Lo

[TLTeo]

If the base jet can't use BVR weapons I would expect the -M to be upgraded to carry them rather than the -EE. As far as I know the -EE was tailored more towards a2g.

[Get_Lo]

1 hour ago, TLTeo said:

If the base jet can't use BVR weapons I would expect the -M to be upgraded to carry them rather than the -EE. As far as I know the -EE was tailored more towards a2g.

its a bit weird for the Spanish to buy these Super 530s knowing that the F1EDAs are only going to be used for parts, and not using the Super 530s on their combat aircraft.

But as for the F1EE and its Super 530 capabilities I think it was part of the same radar upgrade package that they bought. I think the M upgrade to the Cyrano IV (making the Cyrano IVM) had better look down capabilities which enabled both improved ground attack and better ground filtering which allowed for Super 530 guidance (Hence why the Mirage F1EE and F1M have enhanced look-down air to air modes) 
 

to sum it up shortly the same improvements to the Radar that helped the EE and M in ground attack also improved low altitude and look-down Air-to-air operations, which is what the 530F relied on

And for the Mirage F1M over the EE i think the only change in weaponry for air to air was the addition of the AIM-9M  (which is why I believe the EE/M can use the Super 530 already)

Edited April 30, 2021 by Get_Lo

[Get_Lo]

Ive done a bit of research on the Cyrano IV fire control radar (thanks in part to a handy manual I found for it a while ago) and from my findings I THINK this is how it goes

Early Mirage F1C designs include the basic Cyrano IV radar which is capable of look-up and co-altitude interception out to 111km and has the capability to support R530 SARH missiles
A few years down the line the Super 530F development is under weigh and the French upgrade their Mirage F1C's Cyrano radar to the Cyrano IV-1 standard which is the same but enhances look-down capability, I believe this is the first version to support the 530F.

The French later develop the Cyrano IV-2 which offers some limited ground attack capability.

 

The Cyrano IV-2 eventually evolves into the Cyrano IV-M which improves on the ground attack capabilities and improves look-down capabilities and also adds the additional Track While Scan air to air operations. I believe this is the first version to support Sea Search and Exocet compatibility, im unsure if these features came standard with the IV-M 

 

By the time the Iraqi's are ordering their F1EQ5/6s they are asking for Exocet implementation, The Cyranos they use are upgraded with sea search and ARMAT/Exocet compatibility. I am unable to find the name of this particular upgrade or if it was just a refitting with a IV-M. although some of the F1EQs were fitted with French provided Cyrano-based radars that were simplified and slightly downgraded although permitted the use of Exocet missiles.

The Cyrano IV-MR is the same as the Cyrano IV-M but with the addition of terrain mapping features.

The Mirage F1M uses either the best version of the Cyrano IV-M or the Cyrano IV-MR. unsure which. Which ever it is I do know it can support Track While Scan, Sea Search, Ground radar ranging, Exocet capability (But do keep in the Spanish never bought and Exocets AFAIK, would be cool to see in DCS though) I am unsure about its ability to support Super 530s but I believe It can as older versions of the Cyrano could, but I have no evidence to confirm this. by the time the F1M was procured the R.530 SARH missile was REALLY old, so im not sure if this version could still use the R530.

 

Similar situation for the Mirage F1EE, it either had the Cyrano IV-2 or the IV-M as it did feature enhanced ground attack capabilities (but without the fancy Anti-shipping stuff) still unsure on its ability to use Super 530s but it can indeed use the older R.530 SARH.

and as for the F1CE and F1BE its a bit more tricky, They could have had any of the radars mentioned above (apart from the IV-MR). ive seen many sources saying that the CE/BEs already had the IV-M, but ive also seen many that say it was upgraded to the IV-M (When they got turned into F1Ms)

Hopefully someone who knows even more about this can help me narrow down some of these mysteries.

Does anyone know when the Spanish started receiving their orders of Mirage F1EEs? maybe the time frame could help us figure out which radar it used.

here is a picture of a Spanish Mirage F1 with a Super 530F but I believe this particular Mirage is an F1EDA (Qatari Model) I really hope that the Super 530F gets put in

Edited April 30, 2021 by Get_Lo
many edits made for new information

[jaguara5]

Must have

https://dogfight-editions.com/fr/hors-series/2-cocardes-digital-hors-serie-n01.html

[KIKE92]

Knowing what weapons the spanish Mirages could use is surprinsingly difficult, when it comes to the F1M I would be very surprised if it couldn't use the Super 530F because just as it was mentioned a few times this aircraft were also Exocet capable the spanish air force simply didn't buy them just in the same way they never used the R550 Magic so I find it difficult to believe that they would go out of their way just to remove support for one particular weapon from all their aircraft especially considering you might need this capability somewhere down the line, but still I'm not sure.

[DerNeueMensch]

8 hours ago, jaguara5 said:

Must have

https://dogfight-editions.com/fr/hors-series/2-cocardes-digital-hors-serie-n01.html

très bien, acheté - nice find!

[Get_Lo]

15 hours ago, KIKE92 said:

Knowing what weapons the spanish Mirages could use is surprinsingly difficult, when it comes to the F1M I would be very surprised if it couldn't use the Super 530F because just as it was mentioned a few times this aircraft were also Exocet capable the spanish air force simply didn't buy them just in the same way they never used the R550 Magic so I find it difficult to believe that they would go out of their way just to remove support for one particular weapon from all their aircraft especially considering you might need this capability somewhere down the line, but still I'm not sure.

yeah I really dont see why they would pass up an opportunity to use the best missile in their arsenal.

[KIKE92]

1 hour ago, Get_Lo said:

yeah I really dont see why they would pass up an opportunity to use the best missile in their arsenal.

 

At this point the Hornet was already in service with the Spanish Air Force and the Typhoon was on the pipeline, the important question is if the Cyrano IVM was compatible with the Super 530F, if the answer is yes than the F1M should in theory be capable of using the 530F, then again it depends on the documents the Devs have access to, If they had access to the Qatari F1s Spain acquired they should be able to develop a super 530 capable F1.

[potatoman530]

Did the Mirage F1 have any Anti Radiation Missiles? I have read that it carried the AS-37, but I cant confirm it. 

[Get_Lo]

2 hours ago, potatoman530 said:

Did the Mirage F1 have any Anti Radiation Missiles? I have read that it carried the AS-37, but I cant confirm it. 

Some Mirage F1s could indeed carry ARMAT and Martel Anti-radiation missiles, however I dont think the Spanish ever bought these. as for what SEAD the Spanish did have for their F1s, they used Syrel ELINT pods and Barax jammers. No anti radiation missiles I believe.

[TLTeo]

From what I've heard, the Spanish F1s by the early 90s were mostly doing interception and air policing, while the newer Hornets were more a2g platforms, almost like in Italy with the F104 and Tornado IDS, so it would make sense if they did carry the 530F.

 

Ironically the other similar thing with the Italian 104 and Spanish F1 fleets is that it's really hard to find pictures of them with anything but a basic a2a loadout, so it's really hard to tell what they actually would have used, especially for a2g.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

About the subject you mention with R530(F) and so, you all seem surprised but remember at the time the second hand F1EQs and so where bought, the Hornet's were in Spain for about 10 years, and Eurofighters were already planed, both of them used for A-A. I believe F1 were mostly relegated to A-G at the time. Why making R530(F) operative when you have far superior jets for the task? For the time before F1Q's arrival, there were F-4Cs so why bother with R530 and F1 for A-A? That doesn't mean if it could carry and use it the module shouldn't have them, but I believe those are the historical reasons why those weren't used a lot in Spain for A-A, even though there are pictures of F1s loaded with R530s and AIM-9P for scramble purposes.

 

Somebody asked about dates for C and E just in case it helped knowing features. First F1CE arrived in 1975, F1EEs by 1981-82, Qatar second hand 94 onwards (due to Eurofighter delays). From this book (in Spanish),

 

 

S!

[PetRock]

On 4/1/2021 at 9:33 AM, Vibora said:

We'll try to post something soon.

 

Hello @Vibora,

 

Any news from Aerges?

 

Hope all is well and looking forward to the new module!

Edited May 2, 2021 by PetRock
words

[potatoman530]

3 minutes ago, PetRock said:

 

Hello @Vibora,

 

Any news from Aerges?

 

Hope all is well and looking forward to the new module!

 

Yea last update on their Facebook was in January which was some screen shots of the F-1M

[PetRock]

2 minutes ago, potatoman530 said:

Yea last update on their Facebook was in January which was some screen shots of the F-1M

 

I am aware, hence why I asked at end of March if there was anything new to share since the January post on Aerges's FB. (follow the quote post history)

 

If there is something new, great! If not, oh well, but anything new would be nice to hear.

[Get_Lo]

3 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

About the subject you mention with R530(F) and so, you all seem surprised but remember at the time the second hand F1EQs and so where bought, the Hornet's were in Spain for about 10 years, and Eurofighters were already planed, both of them used for A-A. I believe F1 were mostly relegated to A-G at the time. Why making R530(F) operative when you have far superior jets for the task? For the time before F1Q's arrival, there were F-4Cs so why bother with R530 and F1 for A-A? That doesn't mean if it could carry and use it the module shouldn't have them, but I believe those are the historical reasons why those weren't used a lot in Spain for A-A, even though there are pictures of F1s loaded with R530s and AIM-9P for scramble purposes.

 

Somebody asked about dates for C and E just in case it helped knowing features. First F1CE arrived in 1975, F1EEs by 1981-82, Qatar second hand 94 onwards (due to Eurofighter delays). From this book (in Spanish),

 

 

 

well then that begs the question, why did Spain buy the Super 530F at all when they purchased the F1EDAs? the F1EDAs were bought with the purpose of using them for spare parts so I dont know why they would buy/accept the Super 530F if they had no intentions of using it. Also if they were primarily using Hornets for A-A why did they upgrade the F1 to the F1M many years after the purchase of the F18. Not to mention the Super 530s got delivered well before the F1M modernization was completed. I think for these reason alone we can conclude that at-least the IVM equipped jets should be capable to use the 530F, unless of course the Spanish decided to exclude 530F support from the upgrades (which I dont think they would have since I believe the IVM came with this feature as standard, so they would have had to modify the radar to not support this missile for seemingly no gain in other aspects).

 

And thank you for the dates of the deliveries!  

[Ala13_ManOWar]

That's probably just the whole package you buy, aircraft, spare parts, and weaponry whether you plan to use it or not. Why would Qatar keep what's a useless weapon without a French aircraft?

 

And with regard to that, now I remember, I've seem a comment in the book about weaponry. Apparently French weapons can't be used in no French aircraft, and the other way around the Mirage didn't accept foreign weaponry and that's a problem when you try to overhaul the aircraft with no French systems and weaponry. Spain overhauled the fleet relatively soon in order to be able to use other weapons and systems, and so that's why Matra Magic is so little to none seen and replaced by AIM-9P really early (by the 80's for sure), so latter F1M used many types of loadouts contrary to earlier ones as well as other countries' non overhauled units (I believe it mentions specifically Qatar's one), and that would explain why Qatari F1s didn't match already in service Spanish versions until the first MLU was done.

But not only that, now that you ask, why did Spain overhauled the F1 to M? Because we had to fulfil NATO rules and that means having a minimum number of fighter aircraft, F1M indeed were counted as fighters even though they didn't play the role any more (so were counted school F-5Bs, for instance, and remaining RF-4Cs too). Still with all of that Spain had less than that minimum number, but Eurofighter was already projected and a WIP. As the not yet known as Typhoon suffered delays the F1 had to be overhauled in order to win a few years of service, just enough so Typhoon would be in service and fill the gap. BTW IIRC there were a short interim in which F1s were already dismissed from service but Typhoon weren't in service yet.

 

I believe that answers your spot on questions though doesn't answer if, being used or not, the R530 were still compatible with latter versions, sorry. And all of a sudden you made me feel so old since that I tell you about the numbers I remember reading at an aviation magazine at the time since I was a teenager .

 

S!

[Get_Lo]

2 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

That's probably just the whole package you buy, aircraft, spare parts, and weaponry whether you plan to use it or not. Why would Qatar keep what's a useless weapon without a French aircraft?

 

And with regard to that, now I remember, I've seem a comment in the book about weaponry. Apparently French weapons can't be used in no French aircraft, and the other way around the Mirage didn't accept foreign weaponry and that's a problem when you try to overhaul the aircraft with no French systems and weaponry. Spain overhauled the fleet relatively soon in order to be able to use other weapons and systems, and so that's why Matra Magic is so little to none seen and replaced by AIM-9P really early (by the 80's for sure), so latter F1M used many types of loadouts contrary to earlier ones as well as other countries' non overhauled units (I believe it mentions specifically Qatar's one), and that would explain why Qatari F1s didn't match already in service Spanish versions until the first MLU was done.

But not only that, now that you ask, why did Spain overhauled the F1 to M? Because we had to fulfil NATO rules and that means having a minimum number of fighter aircraft, F1M indeed were counted as fighters even though they didn't play the role any more (so were counted school F-5Bs, for instance, and remaining RF-4Cs too). Still with all of that Spain had less than that minimum number, but Eurofighter was already projected and a WIP. As the not yet known as Typhoon suffered delays the F1 had to be overhauled in order to win a few years of service, just enough so Typhoon would be in service and fill the gap. BTW IIRC there were a short interim in which F1s were already dismissed from service but Typhoon weren't in service yet.

 

I believe that answers your spot on questions though doesn't answer if, being used or not, the R530 were still compatible with latter versions, sorry. And all of a sudden you made me feel so old since that I tell you about the numbers I remember reading at an aviation magazine at the time since I was a teenager .

 

S!

Haha, its great to hear though! Im glad to be hearing from someone who knows so much about this plane. ive known about it for a long time by my extensive researching has only began about 6 months ago with the announcement on this forum. 

I believe the export F1s could indeed use French weaponry, as for example the F1EQs used only French made weapons, Super 530F, R550 Magic, Exocets, ARMMATs, and what not. Even the Spanish F1 used French made R530 missiles (they opted out of the R550 magic because they wanted US made Sidewinders more, and Sidewinder/magic cross compatibility only became available with the Magic II) and as for "Why would Qatar keep what's a useless weapon without a French aircraft?" I agree that would be weird, but also why would Spain accept the missiles if they also had no intention of using them at some point? I wish the Spanish flew with their planes armed more often so I could see some pictures of their weaponry. During the F1M upgrade they upgraded the radar and systems to be capable of using Exocets despite having none, so it would be weird to not implement Super 530s despite having many of them at the time? 

[potatoman530]

Are they just making Spanish air force variants or are they planning on making more later on?

[Get_Lo]

1 hour ago, potatoman530 said:

Are they just making Spanish air force variants or are they planning on making more later on?

Just Spanish for right now, if they get sufficient technical documentation they said they arent opposed to potentially making more down the line

[potatoman530]

2 minutes ago, Get_Lo said:

Just Spanish for right now, if they get sufficient technical documentation they said they arent opposed to potentially making more down the line

I hope they make an F-1EQ sometime in the future

[Get_Lo]

Just now, potatoman530 said:

I hope they make an F-1EQ sometime in the future

The EQ would be absolutely lovely I agree! 
It will be interesting to see what balance of reality + fun they go with in regards to loadouts so I could potentially fly as a different nation's F1 and act out various real life situations, seeing as they already made some beautiful skins for them!
I think it would be great to be screaming along the floor of the Persian Gulf sneaking up on an unsuspecting Iranian F14 and shooting him down with a Super 530F
 

[potatoman530]

1 minute ago, Get_Lo said:

The EQ would be absolutely lovely I agree! 
It will be interesting to see what balance of reality + fun they go with in regards to loadouts so I could potentially fly as a different nation's F1 and act out various real life situations, seeing as they already made some beautiful skins for them!
I think it would be great to be screaming along the floor of the Persian Gulf sneaking up on an unsuspecting Iranian F14 and shooting him down with a Super 530F
 

I want the EQ for an Iran Iraq war campaign I might make along with Heat blurs up coming Iranian tom cat, but also because it has better CAS options. I have spent hours researching and I am 99% certain the EQ model carried the ATLIS laser designation pod which allowed to use of the AS-30L missiles also the Exocet would be a lot of fun in a tanker war in the Persian gulf map. Along with this it mounted the ARMAT anti rad missile. I am not sure if Iraq had any LGBs tho.