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Why is the Spitfire so terrible?


Cunning_Fox

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"I can't fly this plane, it must be terrible!" :megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol:

 

Thanks for the laugh - this thread is hilarious.

 

 

I can fly every other plane, weird that this one is so terrible, and that even Clostermann hated it.

 

You keep on laughing, and flying a hyped up plane that needs more micro management than a Hearts of Iron 3 and that is outperformed by 1930's Soviet fighters.

 

I am sorry your fantasy got destroyed, I am sort of famous for doing that to people.

 

Sorry what plane are you flying? The spitfire is a killer...

 

A killer of anyone misfortunate enough to be in it's cockpit. You're right.

I have searched for long over decades for the worst plane in all os the sims combined, and the worst campaign, and I have found them: Spitfire and Operation Epsom.

 

The absolute worst of the worst. I would rather fly the Storch.

 

 

This no different to ANY Allied fighter with Max Continuous, Combat and WEP RPM and Manifold Pressure settings.

 

Regards visibilty - the Spitfire first flew came out in 1936 - the Mustang in 1940. 4 years difference in development. The 109 is a closer design contemporary and if you think visibility is any better from that aircraft...well you need an eye test.

 

Personally I think you thought you found an excuse to do some Brit bashing and came in here to smack-talk a much loved icon, when in reality, the plane has compromises, like any other, and is otherwise a very capable machine and can be a delight to fly and fight.

 

The real issue is your apparent unwillingness do any research whatsoever, combined with a lack of finesse when understanding aircraft handling or engine management - something which apparently most of us DCS Spitfire drivers (and so the historical record would indicate, the gentlemen obliged to fly her in combat for real) don't seem to have a problem with.

 

Oh sure sure, I have time to watch the engine temp and RPM on a small indicator in the ass end of the cockpit as I am dodging AI.

 

No, you do not need this much management even with 30's allied aircraft. Even manual mixture and cwol flaps control is easier than this thing trying to kill itself and you inside it.

 

Maybe you need an eye test? Mustangs had bad visibility up to D model. 4 years Spit was modified, yet it wasn't either armoured well nor was the visibility improved. Yet, there were dozens of modicifactions.

 

Funny that in 109 anyone who flew it with overwhelming majority say that the visibility is extremely good for the year and weird that I can never lose a target I am facing unless I close my eyes, as opposed to it being blocked by a giant fat arch in the spit, provided it isn't folded into the background by asinine green tint and exaggerated reflections.

 

I am doing research, I am reading the manual for the 3rd time. There is no lack of "finesse" on my part, it's an unstable, terrible machine that wants to spin and jerk without any reason to do so and that can't survive a single hit from anything other than an MG.

 

No, I don't jerk on the stick to desperately get behind the enemy. I know how to fly, thanks. The plane shakes no matter what you do with it and needs constant readjustment of trim, constant monitoring of the engine.

 

Somehow, the gentlemen got their back handed to them most of the time (save for a few instances, like September 1940, where the fights weren't even a great victory) and most preferred Hurricane and Tempest (and I can see why, Tempest is lightyears ahead of the Spit). Sorry, but don't try to blame me for the fact that it's a terrible aircraft that was very overhyped by the British propaganda at the time. If it was so good, why were Hurricanes more prominent during the BoB?

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Most aviation historians, experts and hobbyists are of the opinion that it was an excellent fighter plane, whereas a complete stranger without any credentials off the Internet thinks it's terrible. So whom am I to believe here, I ask you :D

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Who are these "aviation historians" and "experts"? What are thier credentials, that a complete stranger, is citing here without bothering to provide any names.

 

So, who am I to belive here?

 

Oh wait, let me guess, every single one of those "histotians" is British.

 

If I said "every expert and historian said that soviet fighters were superior to every british fighter in WW2, this fact is supported by historains", you wouldn't be very convinced now, would you?

 

Let's not forget the British have a knack for propaganda.

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Ok, I’ll say it, this is a troll thread.

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« Herr Reichsmarschall, geben Sie mir eine Staffel Spitfire » Hermann Göring ... that's saying it all ....

 

you must read the "Die Ersten und die Letzten" Book from Adolf Galland ;)

he doesn't really mean he won't the Spitfire, he was angry for his Chef Göring

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I am completely with you, the Spitfire wasn't that good IRL, there is way too much praise about that aircraft. It looks kinda nice but actually it was a bad design. Nevermind, if you manage to cut her wings off you are def doing something wrong. Let me guess you have a Warthog Hotas? Or something on the cheaper, shorter end? And the engine is totally managable, no problems here. It's you my friend!

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Do remember chaps that during the BOB (14 weeks), that the Luftwaffe lost an estimated 1977 aircraft (including 800 fighters). Over half of those kills were by Hurricanes, but that's mainly because the Luftwaffe fighters were left to the Spitfires, whilst the Hurricanes were shooting up bombers.

So the stats would seem to suggest that your statements of "wasn't that good IRL" would be shall we say "debatable".

Do also remember that the Luftwaffe basically destroyed every other airforce that it initiated combat against, including the Polish, French (who had a LOT of aircraft) and the Russians.

 

So whilst YOU might not rate it, statistics about it's effectiveness would seem to contradict your views.

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This thread can be summed up simply as somebody sucks at flying the Spitfire, so it must be rubbish......

 

I was trying to be polite enough to not say that, but...

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I fly the P-47 mostly but I also have the Spitfire.

It's a very good combat aircraft.

All aircraft have their own eccentricities, mechanical needs etc.

I think the Spitfire fly's a lot like a P-51 in my own experience in DCS.

Tight turning, very good speed, respectable firepower. Relatively easy to takeoff and land with practice.

Very responsive and agile in the air.

IMHO, at the end of the day, there is no 'better' airplane.

It comes down to the pilot knowing his aircraft's strengths and weaknesses, and plan his or her tactics accordingly.

 

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Fine, fine.

 

I've read some accounts of the Soviet fighter pilots who flew the thing and they were all happy with it. They even used a low-octane fuel which meant the engine was not even used to its full potential. They flew Vb in the 1943, so then it must be something I am doing.

 

I keep flying it for the third day straight (the thing's growing on me) and although I can land my shots perfectly on land targets and shake off the enemy from my tail, the thing still dies from one or two hits.

 

I seem to have the problems that are opposite to everyone else: I can land and do ground attack in it just fine, but I can't do enemy AI in the air.

 

I like the challenge, though, so I need to master it. Turns out that raising my brightness almost to 1.8 allowed me to see those guages which means it's easier to control the engine now, but I am to the point where I do it almost instinctively, without having to look at the temperature or RPM.

 

Another problem is that a lot of things are hidden from view, even if you turn the pilot model off, so I just hotkeyed them (I am used to reaching something in the cockpit and licking it, rather than using hotkeyes). Apart from constant trim input the other problem with this plane is that the MGs are very weak, yet the cannons are rather low on ammunition. It makes it sort of useless when you spend all your cannon ammunition.

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Oh wait, let me guess, every single one of those "histotians" is British.

 

You guess wrong. Read up on it and educate yourself, since you clearly don't have a clue.

 

Ok, I’ll say it, this is a troll thread.

 

Indeed. But who's the bigger fool here? Is it us because we keep on nibbling at the bait, or the guy who's trolling?

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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I fly the P-47 mostly but I also have the Spitfire.

It's a very good combat aircraft.

All aircraft have their own eccentricities, mechanical needs etc.

I think the Spitfire fly's a lot like a P-51 in my own experience in DCS.

Tight turning, very good speed, respectable firepower. Relatively easy to takeoff and land with practice.

Very responsive and agile in the air.

IMHO, at the end of the day, there is no 'better' airplane.

It comes down to the pilot knowing his aircraft's strengths and weaknesses, and plan his or her tactics accordingly.

 

Like the P51? Very good speed? Oh boy...

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Practice makes perfect,

 

You have to also channel the British Fighter Pilot Hero mindset and use your jedi like powers to have perfect Situational Awareness, to never get hit and only ever fire your Hispano when your enemy is foolishly turning right infront of your guns. You have 240 rounds use them wisely. Also don't fly without being properly topped up with the exact amount of tea and biscuits.

 

The most frustrating thing is being sat in a 1943 plane fighting 1945 opponents but once that annoyance dissipates it only adds to the satisfaction when you send your enemies packing one after the other.

 

Spitfires are awesome in DCS and for real, nuff said.

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I am consuming gratuitous amounts of tea and buttered crumpets (no, really -- I cannot fly without a strategic-size cup of Ear Grey from Twinning's in my Homsar jug) to keep myself in the air.

 

I also believe that my pilot survives these terrible emergency landings, that happen due to incredible amounts of Vasiliy Zaytsev-level sniper AAA in Caen, because the fall is cushioned by the giant stiff upper lip, that absorbs the entire force of the impact and is sometimes used as an extra flap during landings when the hydraulics are too damaged to deploy the normal ones.

 

I have gathered why the Soviet pilots liked it (and even kept it until 1945 in the PVO) -- the fighter's engine is made for the high octane fuel, the lower octane fuel available in the USSR meant less power, but also meant that it would serve longer as the temperature in the piston shafts wasn not as great. I am guessing they could also get more performance out of it due to the fact that it's not sunny beaches of Normandy, where the thing gets cooked in seconds.

 

They flew already worn-out 1942 Mk.Vbs versus the top of the line Luftwaffe pilots of Jg.3 and Jg.52 and still won most of the fights.

 

I would rather have underwing boxes of extra ammunition for the Hispano, than useless fuel tanks or cherrybomb-level bombs. The MGs are useless.

 

Also, note that the manual is copied from airwar.ru and is translated literally by google translate. The effort ED put into some parts of this module are almost incredible -- at least worth a lunch break.

 

(Translate this in Google Translate and read the first part of the manual: Supermarine Spitfire Mk.IX (airwar.ru))

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So your opening post was on your first day of ownership?

geez...

System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

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Some of the issues mentioned are the result of the way this module has been modelled and maintained (or not quite...) by ED.

 

a) It shakes only when it's about to stall, but it stalls between 15 and 20 degrees of AoA (depending on how coordinated the turn is), so pretty much like the Mustang - the only difference is its extremely sensitive elevator and rudder, which does require getting used to (or using more agressive curvature/saturation axes settings, or using joystick extension, or all of above). Nothing inherently wrong with the plane itself;

 

b) Poor readability of instruments and windscreen reflection shenanigans are partially due to the fact that it's the only ED warbird, which hasn't had its cockpit textures tweaked to work properly with 2.5.5+ game versions. So, dynamic lighting and shading in the cockpit is all over the place (armored windscreen being the worst offender), ugly static reflections are still there, last but not least the latest propeller texture "optimization" by downgrading to low-res mess only made things even worse. Many of these issues can be solved by using community mods (if you're not into multiplayer that is), but the fact remains - Spit seems to be the least maintained ED warbird of them all recently. If it had proper cockpit gfx overhaul like other warbirds, it would be more player-friendly;

 

Winscreen frame is a visibility obstacle indeed, but it's still miles better than in 190A-8 :D.

 

c) Engine management is not THAT bad - on summer maps, you can set RPM to 2850 and leave it there. As long as you don't slow down below 180 IAS, you can keep 12 lbs boost forever, or 16 lbs (that's max at this RPM setting) for many minutes without any danger of overheating. So it' s pretty much only the airspeed you have to keep an eye on;

 

d) Its performance is not impressive by the late war standards (compared to hot-rods like K-4 and D-9), especially with UFO-AI flight models and routines, but that's more of a problem of aircraft lineup and poor AI in DCS in general. It remains the most maneuverable ED-developed warbird, though. If you manage to lure opponent into low-to-mid speed dogfight, the Spit is untouchable.

 

Can't comment on its toughness with revised damage model, but I don't recall it being praised for robust structure.

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which hasn't had its cockpit textures tweaked to work properly

 

Well, this. That's a good point as well and not having them available does indeed lessen the "ergonomics" of the bird somewhat.

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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Hey:) i Don't know if it could be usefull?But before loosing your mind among a lot of legends and assertions of real flight,you have to practice a little,no?

Furthermore on the game.It seems the least to do.

So could you make a little test to see if you are able to shoot down something .And that with anykind of warbirds of DCS.

Of course it's not an advise in any case or a teaching stuff.Just a test to see if you are able to do the more basics things.And it's only for your eyes.

Check out the maximum continues setting of you engine(RPM and inlet).And do not change anything while you play to maintain a good speed enough with a good enrergy.I mean don't change the throttle and propeller position.

In fact just have to use stick and pedals,once that the setting is right.

Now you have to reproduce the dance of IA planes.

It is the boom and zoom.

Before adding an opponent better train solo.

You have to be able to play between the stall speed and the maximum speed while doing this manoeuver;without changing anything of the engine setting.

Once you will be able to do this dance almost with your eyes shut,You could make some attempt in dogfighting with an opponent.

And the more you practice the more you will be able to see the different performances,because they are very little obvious between each warbirds of DCS,once you put aside all legends.

From this start try to use different setting and you will see that is not the most important thing to win a dogfight.

Remember that is a flight simulator and not an erzatz with a more or less aircraft powerfull engine.

An aircraft is made to fly thus we have to learn it.

And not to loose our time like we do with a car or a motorcycle with customizing stuffs.

Good game.

 

Bottom line:in DCS you are not playing with Xwings or Tie fighters of science-fictions movies.

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On 11/29/2020 at 10:12 PM, Mr_sukebe said:

So your opening post was on your first day of ownership? geez...


Not really, I buy the modules as soon as they come out. I have flown it before a few times, but never in a campaign.

In Epsom campaign as soon as you take off you are almost instantly bombarded with AAA, so when you enter a fight you are damaged and you have lost most of your squadron, which means that you almost always fight outnumbered. Let's not forget that most of action is behind enemy lines and if you go low, you are shot at by Flak 36.

I have a weird connection to this plane now. Other planes I can fly whatever the psychological state I am in. I could reliably shoot down MiG-15's Ace AI in Sabre when everyone complained about MiG being unbeatable whatever the state I am in. 

It's like the plane "feels" when you hate it.

In the Spitfire I have to be rather aggressive to win. There is no inbetween. You have to really be "inside" the plane in your mind, then it does wonders. I have been shooting down two A8 AI by myself (I do get damaged, almost all of the time, but I shoot them down nonetheless), most of the time I have to catch them whilst they turn into me when they go vertical and I have a split second to drop rounds on target as our planes pass each other only two or so meters apart.

I have "ammunition anxiety", therefore I almost never fire when my nose blocks the target, but after a few rounds of practice I can sort of predict where he will be when I move my nose to lead him. It's also good training for judging the distance to enemy planes (since you have to know as the cannon shells seem to fall off much quicker than in the other planes).

P.S. I don't know about you guys, but I am not really keen on this new forum engine 


Edited by Cunning_Fox
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3 hours ago, Cunning_Fox said:

P.S. I don't know about you guys, but I am not really keen on this new forum engine 

You have only just seen the new forum, and it says clearly "Attention! Content rebuild and reindex process is in progress. Estimated completion date - 4th December 2020. Forum content may look broken during this process." And already you make negative comments. Just like with the Spit. You might want to think about your behaviour (no offense intended!)?

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Wow, what an OP. Where do I start. With the easy thing I reckon - engine management. You are wrong about it. Thankfully, it's easy to manage and very forgiving. Just don't stall (a pilot responsibility, bien sur).  Now I did believe, before I started flying the Spit, that engine management would be very difficult because of what people had posted. Once I'd got some flying time under my belt I realised my misconceptions were just that. You don't need to keep watching the dials once you understand the relationship between RPM, boost, oil temp, water temp, and air speed. Instead experience will teach you how long you have at a particular power setting, and when you need to pay closer attention to the dials.

 

Is our Spitfire slow? Yes, relative to the competition. It's hard to fight against the fast climbing German fighters in the vertical. The horizontal turn game is where you want to be.

 

.303 machine guns. Yes, awful but historically accurate. But be efficient with your cannon use and you'll be fine.

 

Take-offs and landings. They are hard. I can generally land but end up sideways. Take-offs sometimes go that way too. All pilot induced, not the Spitfires fault.

 

Flak - very dangerous - just as it was in real life. Do try to avoid it and you'll do much better. I feel the realism in terms of flak damage is very good based upon my reading of various military history books.

 

If I may advise you, try not to bring any preconceived ideas or perceptions to the Spitfire. Get a good chunk of experience under your belt, then see how you feel. Right now, you aren't qualified to make any judgements. Your lack of knowledge of engine management proves that. The good news is, it shouldn't take that long to get to a point where you've got a decent handle on how the Spit performs.

 

I hope you enjoy your learning experience. I can't say it's all enjoyable - but it's satisfying when it starts to click. Good luck!

 

 


Edited by bell_rj

PC specs:

 

 

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