Jester PDSTT -> PSTT transition issue

[near_blind]

There currently appears to be an issue asking Jester to transition from PDSTT to PSTT via the BVR menu. 

 

When asking jester the first time, he will switch to PSTT as expected. During any subsequent PDSTT locks on the target or any different target, if asked to switch to PSTT Jester will respond affirmatively, but will not actually switch radar modes. This can be confirmed using rctrl + enter to verify the current radar mode. 

 

Track of Issue

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZnxFqsmCHt1r09WwZcleCXHK6HDhiRwr/view?usp=sharing

 

EDIT: 

Just as an afterthought, I don't know if it would effect things one way or another, but I have the option for Jester to automatically switch to PSTT at a certain range turned off. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by near_blind

[sLYFa]

I can confirm this. Switching from PDSTT to PSTT works only once.

[MBot]

I just figured this out as well. Had Jester lock a target with PDSTT in a look-down situation. Then ordered him to switch to PSTT, which he complied with and the lock was lost during the attempt (due to the look-down situation, which is to be expected). Had him lock the target with PDSTT again, then ordered to go PSTT again. Jester acknowledges but does not actually switch the mode. Going back into the RIO pit confirms the lock remains in PDSTT. Also when approaching 10 NM and Jester automatically announces that we will switch to PSTT, the lock remains PDSTT.

 

Another issue with Jester's automatic PDSTT->PSTT transition (when he actually does it) is that he seems to attempt it regardless of the target's elevation. If in a look-down situation his switch attempt at 10 NM will default to a lost lock, which is a very critical timing and especially annoying if you already have a Sparrow in flight. Having realized this now, I have disabled Jester's automatic switching. I think it would make sense for Jester to not attempt to switch in a look-down situation or while supporting a SARH missile.

 

As a side question, how is PAL able to lock targets at up to 15 NM in a look-down situation? I think I understand the physics why you cannot initiate a PSTT in look-down, so how can the pulse mode PAL do it?

[IronMike]

Just now, MBot said:

I just figured this out as well. Had Jester lock a target with PDSTT in a look-down situation. Then ordered him to switch to PSTT, which he complied with and the lock was lost during the attempt (due to the look-down situation, which is to be expected). Had him lock the target with PDSTT again, then ordered to go PSTT again. Jester acknowledges but does not actually switch the mode. Going back into the RIO pit confirms the lock remains in PDSTT. Also when approaching 10 NM and Jester automatically announces that we will switch to PSTT, the lock remains PDSTT.

 

Another issue with Jester's automatic PDSTT->PSTT transition (when he actually does it) is that he seems to attempt it regardless of the target's elevation. If in a look-down situation his switch attempt at 10 NM will default to a lost lock, which is a very critical timing and especially annoying if you already have a Sparrow in flight. Having realized this now, I have disabled Jester's automatic switching. I think it would make sense for Jester to not attempt to switch in a look-down situation or while supporting a SARH missile.

 

As a side question, how is PAL able to lock targets at up to 15 NM in a look-down situation? I think I understand the physics why you cannot initiate a PSTT in look-down, so how can the pulse mode PAL do it?

You can very well lock PSTT in look down situations, I have done it numerous times. In the end, it is not the looking down, that prevents the lock, but the ground clutter and the aircraft relative to that. To give an extreme example: over water you should have little issues at any aspect of the target. Over loads of buildings, mountains and with a half notching target, it will be more difficult. But I usually always lock PSTT in look down situations. I rather care about 2 things in that moment: a) the lookdown angle isn't to steep (I got by gut tbh) and b) the target aspect on time of lock is favourable. As for PAL: it is basically a concentrated radar beam that sweeps the sky. When it hits its target it locks on. So there is not much ground clutter that can interfere in that moment. What is rather a possibility is that priror to finding the bandit, the PAL will lock onto something on the ground, more likely water, say like a ship. But in a desert it could possibly also lock on to ground units without you wanting it to. Hope that makes sense.

[MBot]

13 minutes ago, IronMike said:

You can very well lock PSTT in look down situations, I have done it numerous times. In the end, it is not the looking down, that prevents the lock, but the ground clutter and the aircraft relative to that. To give an extreme example: over water you should have little issues at any aspect of the target. Over loads of buildings, mountains and with a half notching target, it will be more difficult.

 

Well I just now ran a number of tests, about 15 different attempts. Over water at 20'000 ft against a MiG-23 coming straight at me. Ordered Jester to switch from PDSTT to PSTT at ranges between 35 NM to 10 NM. Every single attempt when being higher than the target (even just 1'000 ft) resulted in a lost lock. When I was just a couple hundred ft below the bandit the switches were successful (provided it was the first attempt, as described above). Jester attempting to switch automatically at around 10 NM while supporting a Sparrow against a lower target resulted in a immediate lost lock (cause was not a notch).

 

Mission is attached if you want to check it out.

PDSTT_to_PSTT.miz

[near_blind]

I would like to add that my experience largely parallels that of Mbot. At medium altitude over water with a slightly lower contact with good closure, jester will not successfully transition from PD to P. 

 

As always I'm happy to provide evidence in whatever form you need. 

[some1]

I was about to complain about the same thing. Jester is notoriously loosing lock when transitioning to PSTT, at least in a training mission I created against single Su27 at 30k altitude. 

[IronMike]

I think it is because it is closer in, the ground clutter thus might be bigger and the angle steeper. I generally like to switch to PSTT beyond 20nm, usually around 30 if I know I will fight this guy STT. I am talking btw without any bugs happening, so not trying to counter the report above. That's 2 different issues. If the bandit is below 20nm, I will make sure to lock him PSTT right away, thus preventing the switch. Losing the lock in the switch is very easy, partial illumination lets go for a split second on a target that at such ranges is quickly displaced relative to own ac, etc, ground clutter being stronger and so on and so forth. I try to avoid that automatic switch at all costs, personally. I do however let Jester switch automatically, in the options. Just most of the time I don't even let him get to that point. But again, this is just to explain why PSTT will still work under preferable conditions in a look down situation. EDIT: For anything below 15nm I almost exclusively use PAL, as it is the most ironclad lock in even hard maneuvering situations imo.

[MBot]

Like I said above, over water at 20'000 ft and 30 NM, being slightly below the bandit the switch works, being slightly above the bandit the switch fails and the lock is lost. In the mission I provided this is 100% reproduceable. So considering that you are saying it should work, this is definitely a bug.

[miromurin]

I can confirm this, I have same problem from the beginning when F-14B was released. When I jump to RIO cockpit and switch it by myself it works. If I ask Jester it works only with first target. No matter what the distance and altitude of target is. It never works second time. I think this Jester command is bugged.

Edited December 20, 2020 by miromurin

[Sideburns]

I have commented elsewhere but I think I had this bug and using either PLM / PAL or VSL can knock things back in order as a work around to get Jester transitioning again.

[IronMike]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:28 AM, MBot said:

Like I said above, over water at 20'000 ft and 30 NM, being slightly below the bandit the switch works, being slightly above the bandit the switch fails and the lock is lost. In the mission I provided this is 100% reproduceable. So considering that you are saying it should work, this is definitely a bug.

 

Copy, we think this is a Jester issue, as in him just not doing it. We'll check.

[MBot]

This original issue is still unresolved. On subsequent orders to switch from PDSTT to PSTT (or vice-versa), Jester will acknowledge the command but not actually do it.