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When can we talk about the Ka-50?


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On 12/13/2020 at 8:16 AM, Volk. said:

Responding to @DthFrmAbv's issue specifically on the Shkval dropping down when attempting to lock - I might have experienced this once before - just trying to lock up civilian cars. Somewhere along the line (usual automatic tracking etc switches) it seemed to 'hop' back to a previous target, rather than lock the new thing. I thought it might have had to do with the civvy vehicles often despawning and respawning, and maybe sharing some kind of behind-the-scenes target ID. That said, I didn't pay enough attention to record that, and I don't know if I had a target point brought up or DL ingress on, though that should only affect uncaging, not locking.

 

 

Actually it simply seems to be the "good old burned-out laser thing". 
It happened just recently again, after being into the mission for about 30min. I then once more did some research and found reports back to 2010 and even before.
I returned to the base for repair but nothing was repaired. Did a rearm, tried again, all Vikhrs going ballistic. Laser-counter starts at 01 or maybe 02.


I'll verify by really keeping the laser on for as short as possible as soon as I have time.

On 12/12/2020 at 1:12 AM, 3WA said:

Lol, I think you mean Vhikers ( the actual laser homing missile ).  The shkval is the screen.

 

yes, sorry for causing confusion.

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@DthFrmAbv I started going down the laser burnout rabbit hole, but I haven't done nearly enough tests yet. So the burnout is a thing, and quite likely not a bug, but just what the laser was (I mean it woulda been easier for ED not to code burnout and save these headaches).

What I have experienced as yet is when this happens, the laser fires for 2 seconds (02, 01 like you mentioned), but it still seems to range accurately. And yeah, generally less lasing time = slower time to burnout.

However that 2 seconds means unless your Vikhr is like point blank beyond minimum range, which might anyway fail, your laser stops firing after only 2 seconds and the Vikhr loses track, possibly going wild depending where it was in the spiral and how far it's trying to swerve to find the where it thinks the laser went.

I know a couple of years back that you needed to do stuff like a hard landing or popping the fire extinguisher to be able to repair, but that a repair always fixes it. About 2 months back doing a repair definately restored my laser a couple of times - so if it isn't maybe record that track and send a bug report.

 

But the presence of the laser doesn't affect your ability to lock stuff. The only way it affects Shkval movement is that it can provide ground tracking/inertial stabilisation to stop drift/move along with a moving target's momentum even if lock is lost.

 

If you say the Shkval moved weirdly, outside of those civvy vehicle incidents that may have happened but may have been my mistakes - the only thing outside of strong manuevers breaking lock I can think of, especially with rapid Shkval movement where you didn't change the tracking modes, is uncaging, which can go the HMS/scan mode/data link target/target point. Especially the latter two might be behind you which would then drop it to the floor maybe.

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28 minutes ago, DthFrmAbv said:

 

Actually it simply seems to be the "good old burned-out laser thing".

 

It isn't. I can reproduce it with a fresh first time laser uses. Unless DCS now makes it 100% to burn the laser with first couple times to lock on target.

The problem really is that DCS doesn't have a contrast based lock system modeled, why you can't really program anything realistic kind systems for any targeting system with all the inertia and such challenges.

 

The Shkval simply starts moving by itself at random direction after a while, it can reset its ranged data example from 4.1 km to 0.2 km and that makes Shkval to go crazy as now it doesn't try to stabilize itself to such distance but very close.

The system is simply broken as you can be in perfect hover and have Shkval (after hard try out) locked on flying aircraft and then tracking it fine against clear sky. And suddenly it just loses lock and starts leading or getting behind of target without any reason. You can lock on the underground parts of the buildings (the whole building is lockable from any position, by any size of Shkval gate as it is programmed so, through the trees and all) and still lose a lock as the system just goes crazy.

 

That is reason why I have not flown KA-50 for long time as I might not get even a first Vikhr on the target as the system might start playing around on the first try. And I mean first try with first laser launch. By flying at estimated good range (like 5 km), loking target and only after then turning laser On, and launching Vikhr without ranging, the Vikhr takes off and middle of flight lock is lost, range is 0.2 km and Skhval points below me and Vikhr is lost or it just starts going some direction randomly without understanding that target shouldn't be a moving target. Manually trying to hold Shkval on target is own challenge as it just starts generting own inertia to one direction and you run out of your capability overcome it.

 

 

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@Fri13, I disagree here. I've made a mission I fly quite often (made it to familiarize myself again with the KA-50 after not using it for two years or so).
It first was quite small but I've extended it more and more so that I now need much more time to finish it (due to air defense and generally targets which don't like being shot at).
This also was when I hit the problem with the "ballistic Vikhrs" for the first time. It clearly seems to be a laser issue and especially a laser-fails-over-time issue.
The first 15 or 20 minutes everything is perfectly fine (laser usually was "on" all the time which is not a good practise). Of course there always are the stupid locking issues.

 

But after that time, don't know when exactly it starts, my Vikhrs are useless. I can publish my mission here if anyone wants to try.

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1 minute ago, DthFrmAbv said:

@Fri13, I disagree here. I've made a mission I fly quite often (made it to familiarize myself again with the KA-50 after not using it for two years or so).
It first was quite small but I've extended it more and more so that I now need much more time to finish it (due to air defense and generally targets which don't like being shot at).
This also was when I hit the problem with the "ballistic Vikhrs" for the first time. It clearly seems to be a laser issue and especially a laser-fails-over-time issue.
The first 15 or 20 minutes everything is perfectly fine (laser usually was "on" all the time which is not a good practise). Of course there always are the stupid locking issues.

 

But after that time, don't know when exactly it starts, my Vikhrs are useless. I can publish my mission here if anyone wants to try.

 

I confirm this issue too.  It's not contrast issue.  Laser fails exactly after certain amount of time.  Not laser use time, but mission time.  I've even turned laser on and off to save it but doesn't make a difference.  Well.. actually... I'm not even sure if it's laser that's failing because I can use laser to get distance info just fine.  Just the Vikhr fails to guide.

Landing and requesting repair doesn't fix it either.

 

I'm sure BN is gonna ask for track file but this happens well into missions that it wont be small file.

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It's definitely not a certain amount of time, unless you consistently used the laser in the same way every single time. Unless it somehow behaves differently in SP than MP. It does worse then longer the laser fires, ranging or vikhrs, but not in an entirely linear way (ie. not just seconds firing).

Again locking and brightness/contrast/Shkval settings are unrelated to the laser.

But yes, when it fails, ranging seems to work ok, but Vikhrs will barely have enough time.

 

I did some, but not conclusive testing and playing around with this maybe end November. It failed somewhere at roughly after the 24th Vikhr. I've been able to fire almost 60 Vikhrs in some tests using laser-saving techniques, so there is some logic behind it, but not one I feel comfortable explaining yet. I'd imagine if one laser-ranged all the time (possibly using HMS uncaged firing it every time you release uncage maybe?) then it might be less than 24 Vikhrs.

I've had at least 3-4 MP sessions somewhere November-ish where laser stops helping Vikhrs on 3rd-ish sortie, and a repair at a FARP did the job (no other damage, no fire extinguisher or hard landing tricks).

The non-repair thing is weird though - do post bug+track if that's still an issue.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify: I can't say for certain (yet), but I don't think it's to do with the amount of time the laser is armed/on, but rather linked in some (again non-linear/direct) way to the amount of seconds the laser is firing, which is a user-usage link rather than purely mission timer. I can't speak for ambient temperature in the mission.


Edited by Volk.

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5 hours ago, DthFrmAbv said:

 

 

3 hours ago, DthFrmAbv said:

@Fri13, I disagree here......It clearly seems to be a laser issue and especially a laser-fails-over-time issue......The first 15 or 20 minutes everything is perfectly fine (laser usually was "on" all the time which is not a good practise).

 

Please notice what I wrote.

 

I get it happen even by turning Laser on just before launching Vikhr, and it will happen on first time. It can happen on first laser ranging etc.

The laser is bugged by the ranging feature, it can go straight from 5 km at first time to 0.2 and contrast lock is lost and Skhval starts sleeving itself all around places.

 

The laser burnout problem is different from the contrast lock system.

 

You should be able slew the Shkval anywhere, lock it on anything that has contrast and the Shkval gate should shrink/grow to the tracked and detected contrast area dynamically (not stay fixed on size that is set, the gate size is just pilot to program the system to search black and white contrast pattern in it.  It doesn't care what is the distance to the target, as laser is not required for that at all.

 

The Shkval system does require distance information for one thing, and that is the stabilization for helicopter movement before it has got contrast lock. If you move around and you have target at 5000 meters distance, and your Shkval thinks that you are trying to aim something at 1000 meters distance, the Shkval would try to stabilize itself at that 1000 meter distance and it means your Shkval will rotate around that point and not at 5000 meters. If your Shkval is not ground stabilized, then it will stay stationary and you will see the view move at the same speed as your aircraft does, even if it is roll/pitch stabilized. So you would like to have Shkval first stabilized to "infinity" so it doesn't jump around if you move.

 The information for the ground stabilization can be come up with various means. Normal assumption of your aircraft altitude from ground being same as target altitude and your Shkval angle. This can be seen on KABRIS that how it is not so accurate as the Shkval presentation gate position varies a lot. If you turn Laser On, you use it for ranging and that is when the Shkval receives the proper distance and is transmitted to the KABRIS as well to inform you the proper distance. Now your target positions for datalink management are as well properly done.

You don't need laser either for target range calculation, similar manner as the ARBS does on the Harrier, the Shkval does it if you have a contrast lock. The system can calculate dynamically the target slant range from the angle rate for rockets or gun engagements.

 

The problem here is now that the laser ranger doesn't work. There is a bug. Shkval will receive the new range information without firing laser!

If you have a laser turned On, it is not firing laser at all until you actually designate the target by trying to lock it. And even then it will fire the laser for a couple seconds while it heats up and then stops and it starts cooling down.

There was even a fancy mod for the laser temperature (IIRC it was unrealistic) at top left corner so you saw what was laser temperature.

The rule of thumb to avoid laser burnout is:

 

10 second guidance / designation is one cycle.

5 second cool-down between cycles.

16 cycles is one series.

30 minutes cooling time between series.

Laser MTBF is about 5 complete series (5 * 16 * 10 = 800 seconds in total, or 80 Vikhr launches).

Laser designation for buddy lazing is about 20 seconds long.

 

Each laser ranging is 2-3 seconds, so 3-5 laser ranging is one cycle worth of use. You have 12 Vikhrs and 16 cycles so with 4 cycles for ranging you get 12-20 laser ranging.

Short: You can range for all targets and launch all 12 missiles and then wait 30 minutes for a second load after rearming by waiting 5 seconds between each Vikhr launch or each ranging.

 

The laser is on own separate switch, so you can keep laser Off until you really need it. Meanwhile you can use Shkval to lock on targets as you please or search targets etc.

The laser can not burn out when you are searching targets or locking targets that way. 

 

The laser ranging adds just the one parameter for the solution, the range. It will be given only after you have ranged the target (pressing Lock button) and after that range is not changed as your laser is not firing.

 

So why does the Shkval some time after ranging the range, while maintaining the contrast lock on target, drop the distance to 0.2 km and start moving to random direction?

If the laser is burn out, it would simply not fire. That laser is then broken. No laser energy. The laser wouldn't start firing ranging laser by itself and then measuring range and inputting it to the system like you would just have pressed Lock.

The broken laser should not break the contrast lock of the Shkval. Two separate systems.

 

If you have a broken laser, you can not get a range data with it. You likely would even have a warning message informing that laser has burn out and is inoperative.

But even if you would launch Vikhr, it would just go ballistic as laser energy can not be transmitted. It is like asking that light bulb that has burned out to emit light.

Could the laser burn so it would "flicker"? Sure, that is possibility without knowing exactly how the laser is built, but very unlikely.

 

But regardless of that, burn out laser is same thing as having laser turned Off. It doesn't affect to Shkval lock mechanism, ranging information suddenly being changed and Shkval starting to slew by itself randomly around.

 

Something is making Shkval to lose a contrast lock, lose the range information and even transmit by itself a wrong range data and make Shkval going after imagery false point in space. And burn out laser doesn't do that.

 

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Interesting post, thanks.
So - assuming it is not a burned out laser but still an "over time" issue (I assume that bcs. it never happens at the beginning of a mission or at least I havn't seen that, yet), it would be easy to test:

I could just start my mission, do a 25min sightseeing flight while never switching on the laser, THEN try to lock and lase sth. and it should work? If it doesn't, the issue can't be related to a burned out laser since it wasn't active till this point. I'll try as soon as I have time...

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@Fri13 for you issue 3 possibilities spring to mind. The less likely one is I think sometimes scrolling off into the unknown (beyond 15km) makes it wig out at keep spiking up the range, but I doubt this is it.

This can happen with e.g. ranging a helo, which your Shkval then loses track of and starts tracking 'infinity' and slow creeps up range - it's still tracking the inertia of the last time it'd locked the helo, so it's not flying of to the side crazy-like, but the ranging keeps growing.

The laser itself only fires when you press lock, or after releasing uncage when moving the HMS at small angles with the laser armed. The Shkval in DCS doesn't contrast lock - so it means it sometimes doesn't acquire stuff in what appears to be clear daylight, but at the same time it's retained lock (not just memory-mode), but a lock on something briefly going through visually cluttering trees or passing by another target where contrast locking should have issues. Not sure if that's an issue with coding time, hard to implement or possibly a big FPS drain for ED to implement.

 

What I have found is that there is an issue whereby if you range (with laser armed: lock or slow helmeting as above) while slewing AND the laser is currently firing (timer has appeared on the side), then it can corrupt the range, typically drastically reducing it - that point 0.2 sounds very much like this. I can't tell you if it's a bug in DCS, or a messed up aspect of the real system, but that's how that works. I've got a vid showing off that issue if this description doesn't make sense.

You're most likely to experience it if you're slewing the hat and trying to tap lock on a moving target, slewing and tapping again if you do it too rapidly.

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to be fair the drift, sometimes massive in the shiv by itself is a very old problem, i have flown the shark for years, and it rears its ugly head sometimes every single mission.

then you quit out of misery and go fly something else.

next time you come back with no problem.

all of us that  fly the shark know its there, but its so temperamental we found it very hard to say why it was.

so in the end im sure we all wish this was fixed, so do i not fly it?

HELL NO 


Edited by thrustvector
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I consistently get the same error as some described here for years.
You range some ground with the laser on and it stays stable. the laser countdown starts.

As soon as the laser countdown is done the range jumps from some range that was reasonable, say 7km, to something ridiculous instantaniously, say 0.1km.

Then the shkval tries to keep the "100m" target in view, going nuts even in a relatively stable hover.

This can happen even with reasonable laser use.

 

The other thing is of course the contrast lock, which seems to be more or less:
if (timeofday > 9:00 && timeofday < 18:00 && targetInCenter && targetRange < 10km)
  lock
else
  print("do you think this is a simulation with a proper contrast lock system? that you can lock onto that thing you can clearly see on the screen, perfect black on white? think again.")

 

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  • 1 month later...

Well, it's phenomenal - the way ED ignores this error. So many dedicated descriptions and no feedback respectively bug fixing.

 

Thank goodness, the new exterior view of the KA-50, that ED has announced, will valorise the high-end KA-50 simulation to a greater extent than any bugfixing.

 

 

 

 

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Appropriate contrast lock system would fix many problems, like allow super easy to capture a aircraft against bright sky with a large lock gate. And it would be very easy to maintain such lock.

 

But then there would be annoying experiences when the target is deep in the shadows, blending with the clutter like trees and bushes. You can get a lock, but it likely is the whole scene and not the vehicle, so you need to know how to maintain targeting gate in target for manual aiming.

 

Similar thing with mist and low light, or air target diving against ground clutter like cities etc.

 

This would as well turn differently when it affects better all displays and all seekers.

As no more is flare a random dice throwing against IR seeker but actually need to be tracked and fooled.

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KISS - Keep It Stupid and Simple

 

Make what we have work at 100% after more than 12 years - a new contrast lock system would be nice, indeed.

 

Unfortunatelly ED wait out the problems without any information about KA-50's further development / bugfixing in their newsletters.  

 

Customer retention measures at their best! OMG

 

 

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11 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Appropriate contrast lock system would fix many problems, like allow super easy to capture a aircraft against bright sky with a large lock gate. And it would be very easy to maintain such lock.

 

But then there would be annoying experiences when the target is deep in the shadows, blending with the clutter like trees and bushes. You can get a lock, but it likely is the whole scene and not the vehicle, so you need to know how to maintain targeting gate in target for manual aiming.

 

Similar thing with mist and low light, or air target diving against ground clutter like cities etc.

 

This would as well turn differently when it affects better all displays and all seekers.

As no more is flare a random dice throwing against IR seeker but actually need to be tracked and fooled.

That's EXACTLY what I want!

Realism!

Besides, it's the aircraft that are an immediate threat to the Shark, not the ground targets.

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ED again did not report on the plans for the essential KA-50 bug-fixing / development in the lastest newsletter yesterday.

 

ED takes their KA-50 customer as seriously as their Ka-50 product, don't they?

 

 

ED is suggestive of the KA-50 not to be fully fixed and completed (related to existing KA-50 module), but in return ED boisterously dangles with new helicopter modules (EA) in front of their KA-50 customers. I am very curious how long customers (and fanboys) are willing to go along with this recurrent waiting game.

 

As rotor wing enthusiast I do not abandon hope and keep my fingers crossed for ED to be able to introduce a professional quality management asap to achieve and maintain the desired level of quality in products and services within their company.

 

As a customer who chews on apposite but missing information, I am obliged to abandon my every intention to buy other helicopter modules or the channel map - my buying would give consent to that veil of silence. 

     

 

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7 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

I am very curious how long customers (and fanboys) are willing to go along with this recurrent waiting game.

I think you will find many of us were done with that a while back.

However, when they do fix something, sometimes other things break.  So it takes time to go through the whole cycle of trying to reach the end where everything comes out fixed.

 

Luckily, this new 3rd party coming on want's to focus on the ground, and DCS' new Marianas Islands I would say are nearing Arma 3 level graphics (very promising!).

I mean really, look at one of the Arma 3 Islands, and then Mariana's Island.  Pretty close, I would say.  THIS is what I really wanted to see.  Some island maps that aren't all just grassy plains and trees.  With less land area, we can have hills, bridges, complex structures, better textures, etc.  Would love to see some old castle ruins and such.  This allows DCS to bring in vehicle and FPS mods.  An actual WORLD!  Even the high flyers can participate from aircraft carriers and such.  I know the high flyers usually don't care about the land beneath them, they're all about BVR and dogfights 30,000 feet above it all.  But we low and slow flyers appreciate the terrain and the beauty of the World.

(Note to ED.  There's not going to be another Arma, I don't know if you realized that or not, so here's your chance to gain THOUSANDS of new customers).

So, maybe with all this new focus on the ground, they will start focusing once again on the low and slow flyers, which need a lot of loving ( especially the Ka-50).


Edited by 3WA
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Good evening 3WA,

 

I agree with you 100%.

I also understand that system extensions cannot be done due to governmental restrictions or that errors can come into being now and then. Nevertheless I just wait for the next stage in process, the module completion in function and graphics with a straightforward communication to customers by return. Communication is quite simple, it belongs to the fundamentals in this situation. Several friends are dedicated aviation hobbyist who have been long-time customers since ED's first product launch. They cast a very sceptical eye on ED, whereas it was me who have championed ED's endeavour all the time. The side note* in the first newsletter 2021, rather its style was unfortunatelly the last straw. No schedule, no reference to bug-fixing, either module completion (forum is full of details and a lot of them I can confirm), no reaction to comments in forum, no KA-50 content in newsletters, nothing meaty at all - DIE MANNSCHAFT send their regards, but maybe ED is more adaptive than DIE MANNSCHAFT ... So Say We All!

*

"Note: Due to new Russian Federation laws pertaining to the gathering of information of Russian military equipment, we have had to reconsider our plans to add new systems to the Ka-50. We continue to update the cockpit, as well as a highly detailed updated external model."

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

In reply to OP:  I've just spent a few hours with the ka-50, after not having used it for many years.  I've been refamiliarising myself using the "Gauntlet" mission which is one I'm particularly familiar with, and I'm having all sorts of problems that I don't remember were there before  (e.g. IIRC the AI wingmen used to be helpful in this mission, whereas they appear to be hopeless now).  I can't help getting the feeling that the main DCS engine / missions / etc have moved on but the ka-50 has not kept up with changes.

 

I realise it is rather unfair of me to comment in this way after just a few hours hands-on, but with the investment in time needed to get back into this module, I'm afraid that I'm just going to put it to one side and forget it.  Maybe try again if there's ever a BS3.

 

Sad really, as this is a module that back in the day gave me so many of hours of pleasure.


Edited by Hippo
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  • 4 weeks later...

why are they updating the cockpit again? its great as it is now, even the exterior model is still quite decent.

best module in the game imo, i really hope for the original upgrades to come anyway, the apache is a two seater and i prefer a single seater (maybe having a good fellow dcs player to fly it with would change that). Waiting patienly for a ka50 newsletter.

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On 4/3/2021 at 2:15 AM, BranchPrediction said:

why are they updating the cockpit again?

I think we already have the updated cockpit since last year, but the external model isn't updated yet. I do find it good enough, but not everyone's like that, and eye candy is what sells for great majority of customers, even for simulations. So I can understand that to a degree.

 

Black shark 3 was supposed also add self defense systems and fila missiles but that fell by the wayside thanks to a recent change in Russian laws about gathering information on Russian military hardware.

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  • 2 weeks later...

A properly modeled contrast locking system would be really cool, but I honestly think that is years and years away, simply because it probably would be very taxing performance wise. It's already a very fine balance between realism/eyecandy and FPS for the absolute majority of us.

GPU: PALIT NVIDIA RTX 3080 10GB | CPU: Intel Core i7-9700K 4,9GHz | RAM: 64GB DDR4 3000MHz
VR: HP Reverb G2 | HOTAS: TM Warthog Throttle and Stick
OS: Windows 10 22H2

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Dear chrisofsweden,

 

"A properly modeled contrast locking system would be really cool, but I honestly think that is years and years away, simply because it probably would be very taxing performance wise. It's already a very fine balance between realism/eyecandy and FPS for the absolute majority of us. "

 

Please do not reason your very personal opinion about a topic with a reference to the "absolute majority of us", no matter if intentional or unintentionally.

You cannot know what the majority thinks about a certain technical implementation of a KA-50 feature as long as you have not carried out a survey/have the result. Have you?

So your statement is -with friendly words- illogical (...)

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/18/2021 at 1:45 PM, Fastbreak said:

Dear chrisofsweden,

 

"A properly modeled contrast locking system would be really cool, but I honestly think that is years and years away, simply because it probably would be very taxing performance wise. It's already a very fine balance between realism/eyecandy and FPS for the absolute majority of us. "

 

Please do not reason your very personal opinion about a topic with a reference to the "absolute majority of us", no matter if intentional or unintentionally.

You cannot know what the majority thinks about a certain technical implementation of a KA-50 feature as long as you have not carried out a survey/have the result. Have you?

So your statement is -with friendly words- illogical (...)

 

1. I was not referring to the absolute majority regarding what they think about a KA-50 feature. I was referring to the majority already trying to balance FPS and Eyecandy.

Also, it was my very own armchair opinion that it probably would be taxing to implement a proper contrast locking system.

 

2. Perhaps the statement "It's already a very fine balance between realism/eyecandy and FPS for the absolute majority of us. " were somewhat exaggerated for emphasis, but probably not far from the truth. Just because you're sitting on a 3090 doesnt mean everyone is. The majority isn't, ergo, my statement holds true.


Edited by chrisofsweden
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GPU: PALIT NVIDIA RTX 3080 10GB | CPU: Intel Core i7-9700K 4,9GHz | RAM: 64GB DDR4 3000MHz
VR: HP Reverb G2 | HOTAS: TM Warthog Throttle and Stick
OS: Windows 10 22H2

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