DCS: F-15C Poll

[kseremak]

I'm under the impression guys are quoting each other arguing, but i see practically everyone propose more or less the same: full fidelity Cold War / Desert Storm F-15A/C/C+

So what all this argument is about if practically everyone want the same?

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by kseremak

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Again, it's not about solving any non-existent problem. It's about adding an aircraft.

…and again, that can be done without compounding a well-established, well-known, and by ED acknowledged problem with how there aren't — and indeed can't be — any modern red units to match the modern blue ones. In fact, it can be done so as to reduce that discrepancy and incoherence and instead make all air, ground, and sea units fit together into a comprehensive whole.

 

It's an pretty darn trivial question: what would DCS be served better by? ED's efforts being spent on an aircraft that cannot be sensibly mixed with any of the other aircraft or ground units in the game and that has no opposing units that it would ever fight against? Or ED's efforts being spent on an aircraft that mixes well and that provides more content for all those other modules because they now have another opponent? One option just adds a self-contained unit; the other creates synergies that extend beyond the unit itself.

 

2 hours ago, draconus said:

ED's jet team will not suddenly jump to making some new modern red assets anyway.

Exactly.

 

1 hour ago, kseremak said:

So what all this argument is about if practically everyone want the same?

The argument is whether it's it's a good idea to add yet another 200x variant of a western teen fighter to the game, contemporary with the already problematic Viper and Hornet modules, rather than simply taking the circa-Kuwait war era FC3 Eagle and full-fidelity:ize it.

[Wizard_03]

2 hours ago, kseremak said:

I'm under the impression guys are quoting each other arguing, but i see practically everyone propose more or less the same: full fidelity Cold War / Desert Storm F-15A/C/C+

So what all this argument is about if practically everyone want the same?

 

 

I would prefer a more modern version myself, one with at least MIDS/Link16 integration, HCMS, and, Aim-9X. Roughly 2005ish, In view of the Eurofighters entry into DCS.

 

But I'll take any version of the Eagle to be honest Even F-15A.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Wizard_03

[upyr1]

7 hours ago, kseremak said:

I'm under the impression guys are quoting each other arguing, but i see practically everyone propose more or less the same: full fidelity Cold War / Desert Storm F-15A/C/C+

So what all this argument is about if practically everyone want the same?

 

 

You nailed it, we want cold war fighters

[Furiz]

On 8/11/2021 at 10:32 PM, kseremak said:

I'm under the impression guys are quoting each other arguing, but i see practically everyone propose more or less the same: full fidelity Cold War / Desert Storm F-15A/C/C+

So what all this argument is about if practically everyone want the same?

 

 

 

There are few people here that will write just about anything to keep the endless discussion going on and on

 

as for the C model, we have Strike Eagle on the way, so having 2 variants of Eagle is pointless to me.

And we need more Modern Planes anyway, european, russian, chinese for example.

 

I know I know, now Ill be quoted to the end of times...:P

[Steel Jaw]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:22 PM, Wizard_03 said:

ED doesn't believe that developing a full fidelity F-15C is cost effective, because it's a pure fighter. Are they wrong? Would you buy it?

 

Let’s see…spend endless hours circling waiting for something to happen?  Not a pound for air to ground.  Yawn.  Negative.

7 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

There are few people here that will write just about anything to keep the endless discussion going on and on

 

as for the C model, we have Strike Eagle on the way, so having 2 variants of Eagle is pointless to me.

And we need more Modern Planes anyway, european, russian, chinese for example.

 

I know I know, now Ill be quoted to the end of times...:P

Well I agree we need more Chinese aircraft…as targets.

[Northstar98]

14 hours ago, Mower said:

Let’s see…spend endless hours circling waiting for something to happen?

 

Entirely a mission editing problem - no-one is forcing anyone to do realistic peacetime CAP/air-policing missions.

 

14 hours ago, Mower said:

Not a pound for air to ground.  Yawn.  Negative.

 

If you don't find dedicated A/A intersting, that's fine.

 

But ED's angle that it's too dedicated to one aspect is really confusing to me, seeing as we have a fair amount of modules that are completely dedicated to A/G.

 

14 hours ago, Mower said:

Well I agree we need more Chinese aircraft…as targets.

 

Modern Russian and Chinese aircraft almost certainly isn't happening any time soon, the only exception might be a possible Su-30MKK though seems very unlikely.

 

The most recent FF fixed wing REDFOR aircraft we're getting (though isn't confirmed), is the 9-12 MiG-29, from the early 80s.

 

So that just leaves more BLUFOR aircraft, which with the Eurofighter are even more modern (we're getting a Luftwaffe Typhoon, with a missile that only entered service with them a few weeks ago).

 

I'm with the people who would like a mid 80s F-15A/C, then once more or less complete they could maybe offer an upgrade pack adding a 2005/2008 F-15C.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Northstar98

[bies]

27 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I'm with the people who would like a mid 80s F-15A/C, then once more or less complete they could maybe offer an upgrade pack adding a 2005/2008 F-15C.

 

Exactly. And it was not even true as F-15 was not completely a single role. USAF wanted it to be like that (USAF just wasn't stupid to use such expensive aircraft to drop some bomb and get shoot down by accidential AAA hit), but politicians forced McDonell to make it compatible with dumb bombs CCIP and it had the capability. But the "not a single pound for air to ground" remained.

 

So F-15A or C had not smaller A/G capability than i.e. Su-27S, MiG-29 (which ED wants to do), F-5E and similar aircrafts which are allowed to DCS. And as you said there is lot of pure single role A/G modules.

 

There is a great book about the F-15 written by the real F-15 pilot, commander of the 33rd Fighter Wing Douglas C Dildy "F-15 Eagle Engaged The World's Most Successful Jet Fighter" and he described how this forced A/G requirement influenced F-15 fire control computer and dynamic launch zone calculations.

 

 

Edit: Oh, and IIRC Matt didn't say "we won't do F-15C because it was pure A/A" , but he said something like "being pure A/A it had to give first place to multirole F-18 and F-16". And that's the difference.

But obviously word of mouth started to distort the meaning with time.

Edited August 12, 2021 by bies

[Steel Jaw]

The Eagle Charlie’s mission of boring holes in the sky for hours on end is not a mission editing affair when that’s  its real world dynamic.  What…you gonna use the ME to sends waves of opfor?

[bies]

1 hour ago, Mower said:

The Eagle Charlie’s mission of boring holes in the sky for hours on end is not a mission editing affair when that’s  its real world dynamic.  What…you gonna use the ME to sends waves of opfor?

 

Post Desert Storm and fall of the USSR i agree, but it's true to all of air combat, both A/G and A/A. Near zero risk, hendicapped opposition, mud hut bombing with GPS self guided bombs or LGB, loiter an hour on station, refuel, loiter another hour, release JDAM from 20,000ft to kill few helpless terror guys, RTB.

 

During its prime F-15A and C performed super exciting MiG hunting air superiority missions shooting down over 100 enemy aircraft in air combat in all out wars during 1982 battle over Bekaa Valley Lebanon War and 1991 Desert Storm Gulf War. Eagle scored all MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-29, Su-7, Su-17, Su-25, Mirage F-1 and even a few helicopters including Mi-24.

Edited August 12, 2021 by bies

[GGTharos]

I'll be very happy with a 90's eagle.   It'll do the 80's stuff in a pinch by loading AIM-7s.

 

As for endless boring of holes ... A2G aircraft do the same, and scenario design can easily make the air to air mission very relevant.   The joke is people wanting to swing-role A2A and A2G ... that may work with 'lower capability' opponents.   And that's why when a multi-role aircraft takes off for a mission, it's going to be either A2A with no A2G payload, or A2G with a limited self-escort payload meant to help keep them safe while the A2A flights deal with whatever's thrown at them.

 

[Wizard_03]

On 8/12/2021 at 2:50 PM, Mower said:

Let’s see…spend endless hours circling waiting for something to happen?  Not a pound for air to ground.  Yawn.  Negative.

Let see... outperform every flyable aircraft in the game, in almost every metric, yeah yawn I guess haha 

 

Seriously though very confused, because IMO air combat is way more engaging then any A2G mission. Maybe that's just me.

[Northstar98]

On 8/12/2021 at 10:34 PM, Mower said:

The Eagle Charlie’s mission of boring holes in the sky for hours on end is not a mission editing affair when that’s  its real world dynamic.  What…you gonna use the ME to sends waves of opfor?

 

No, it is exactly a mission editing problem, what you are describing can be completely resolved by creating a mission that suits you.

 

Use the ME to do whatever you want, you wanna fly F-15Cs vs JF-17s over the Channel Map, in a mission dated before the Wright Flyer's first flight? Go for it.

 

If flying long CAP circles is your thing? Fine. If it isn't? Also fine - you are more than capable to tailor make your missions to suite the kind of playstyle that you favour.

[Furiz]

23 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

Seriously though very confused, because IMO air combat is way more engaging then any A2G mission. Maybe that's just me.

 

Try bombing more than just defenseless trucks, place an enemy SAM network to defend the target, enemy CAP, dont place your target on a waypoint, put it somewhre in a specific zone so you need to look for it, or get a JTAC involved, make it a building, a bunker or make it armored column that moves etc, all that stuff makes that A2G mission much more fun . You have tons of options, much more than with AA.

[Kazansky222]

I'd buy an F-15A, but not a C

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, Kazansky222 said:

I'd buy an F-15A, but not a C

I hope we can get a twofer 

[Gierasimov]

On 12/6/2020 at 4:46 AM, Wizard_03 said:

It's in one of Wags interviews don't remember which one 

This is correct, I remember it too.

[henshao]

On 8/12/2021 at 7:20 PM, GGTharos said:

I'll be very happy with a 90's eagle.   It'll do the 80's stuff in a pinch by loading AIM-7s.

 

As for endless boring of holes ... A2G aircraft do the same, and scenario design can easily make the air to air mission very relevant.   The joke is people wanting to swing-role A2A and A2G ... that may work with 'lower capability' opponents.   And that's why when a multi-role aircraft takes off for a mission, it's going to be either A2A with no A2G payload, or A2G with a limited self-escort payload meant to help keep them safe while the A2A flights deal with whatever's thrown at them.

 

 

all I want to do is simulate a long range strike against an enemy with 6x500lb bombs on my single seat Eagle, then my life will be complete

 

"Two single-seat Bazs would trail the two-seaters as Nos 7 and 8 all the way to Tunis, where they would drop unguided GP bombs."

 

is that so much to ask, world of flight sims...

[DaWu]

I am desperately waiting for a F15 but it hast to be modern. Not gonna buy museum tech. Hopefully razbam will deliver 

[bies]

21 hours ago, DaWu said:

I am desperately waiting for a F15 but it hast to be modern. Not gonna buy museum tech. Hopefully razbam will deliver 

 

F-15 overall is a museum tech designed ~55 years ago by our grandparents.

With requirements from totally different era, no supercruise, no RCS reduction, no internal weapon bay, no thrust vectoring, no IR signature reduction, previous generation era engines, late 1960s aerodynamics knowledge etc.

There is literally nothing "modern" in the F-15. During 1970s it was a super-fighter like an F-22 was 15 years ago.

 

It ruled the sky during the Cold War.

Then being replaced by the F-22 by 2000s (not completely because the only enemy able to threat their domination disappeared and budget shrinked drastically).

Today it's just an outdated cheap missile truck to release it's weapon and run when F-22 or F-35 guide them to the targets. (Or simply a way to keep Boeing company afloat during the crisis.)

 

Still the most fascinating aircraft, arguably the most successful jet fighter of the previous century. One of the last fighters having an opportunity to perform serious air combat in history, from late 1970s to early 1990s ~30-40 years ago.

Edited September 29, 2021 by bies

[Furiz]

4 minutes ago, bies said:

 

F-15 overall is a museum tech designed ~55 years ago by our grandparents.

With requirements from totally different era, no supercruise, no RCS reduction, no internal weapon bay, no thrust vectoring etc. There is literally nothing "modern" in the F-15. During 1970s it was a super-fighter like an F-22 was 15 years ago.

 

It ruled the sky during the Cold War.

Then being replaced by the F-22 by 2000s (not completely because the only enemy able to threat their domination disappeared and budget shrinked drastically).

Today it's just an outdated cheap missile truck to release it's weapon and run when F-22 or F-35 guide them to the targets. (Or simply a way to keep Boeing company afloat during the crisis.)

 

Still the most fascinating aircraft, arguably the most successful jet fighter of the previous centaury. One of the last fighters having an opportunity to perform serious air combat in history, from late 1970s to early 1990s ~30-40 years ago.

 

 

Yea lets miss the point of someones post yet again.

 

To add, the tech inside the old shell gets constantly upgraded, and is quite new these days.

[Northstar98]

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

Yea lets miss the point of someones post yet again.

 

The point wasn't missed...

 

DaWu isn't going to buy an F-15 that's "museum tech", the thing is, the F-15 as a whole is "museum tech", which is the whole point of bies post.

 

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

To add, the tech inside the old shell gets constantly upgraded, and is quite new these days.

 

It does, also, good luck trying to implement any of it.

[Furiz]

5 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

The point wasn't missed...

 

DaWu isn't going to buy an F-15 that's "museum tech", the thing is, the F-15 as a whole is "museum tech", which is the whole point of bies post.

 

It was missed cause I think he knows that, that's why he said that hopefully Razbam will deliver, meaning he hopes they will make is as modern as they can.

[Jenson]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:59 AM, henshao said:

all I want to do is simulate a long range strike against an enemy with 6x500lb bombs on my single seat Eagle, then my life will be complete

 

Something like Operation Opera? 

[henshao]

2 hours ago, Jenson said:

 

Something like Operation Opera? 

 I don't think the Eagles bombed in that one...definitely in Operation Wooden Leg though