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LS-6 and GB-6 intercepted by SA-10. Is this normal?


Mirknir

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In my last mission, a nearby SA-10 went crazy on my gliding bomb like seen in screenshots.

The LS-6 seems a bit more appetizing as they fire more on them than the GB-6.

 

Do gliding bombs have that much of a radar signature to be targeted by long range SAMS?

I find this weird ; is this an expected behavior?

I have never had a SAM engaged a mk84 for example.

 

Thanks

 

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Mirknir

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^^^^  This.

 

But also, yes, they have that much of an RCS.   If an aircraft can pick up a 0.1m^2  RCS target over 20nm away, an S-300 with its far more powerful radar will be able to do much, much better.

DCS does not model the full environment under which reduced RCS or stealth altogether works 'best', that being jammers reducing the overall SNR of the target radar for example, as well as other 'distractions' milling about the airspace.

At the same time, a single aircraft penetrating an SA-10 screen with its weapons is a bit silly ... the SA-10 out-sensors and out-guns this aircraft, and its weapons.

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20 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

But strangely a f-18 can drop 8x GBU-38’s from similar distance and essentially the same bomb but with wings and not get shot at.

This is because in DCS JDAMs are classified as bombs rather than missiles. Just the way it is. But as GGTharnossaid, it is mainly a DCSism. Another DCSism that works in favor of the JF is the RCS of the LD-10 (~480) and the interception threshold of the SA-10 (500+) making the SA-10 unable to intercept the LD-10. 

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57 minutes ago, SuumCuique said:

This is because in DCS JDAMs are classified as bombs rather than missiles. Just the way it is. But as GGTharnossaid, it is mainly a DCSism. Another DCSism that works in favor of the JF is the RCS of the LD-10 (~480) and the interception threshold of the SA-10 (500+) making the SA-10 unable to intercept the LD-10. 

Yeah I understand Missiles are targets and bombs are not, But although technically GBU-38’s aren’t actually a glide bombs they still should fall under the same category as they do basically the same thing. Dumb bombs fall very quickly making the time for a SAM to engage one very time limited so I can accept how they are not a target in DCS. But the JDAMs are in the air a very long time, there is no reason they can’t be intercepted just like the LS-6’s


Edited by Blinky.ben
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He told you the reason though.  They're a different category in the game database.   In any case, there's a lot of work to be done WRT weapon vs. carrier interception ... but yes, they should absolutely be attackable.

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  • 1 month later...

Again today, in our mission to go destroy Al Tabqah dam power hub, my 2 GB-6 were intercepted by one SAM that killed them both 😬

 

I know it's a thing in DCS but still, it's kind of ruining the gliding bomb purpose.

Is there any way to drop them like the Viggen does its gliding bomb? Low and fast?

It seems like the GB-6 prefers high and fast and I have mixed results when dropping them too low.

 

Thanks

 

1-TargetIsSoDead.png

 

 

2-OrNot.png


Edited by Mirknir

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Yeah, this issue really just gets to the many "core" problems with DCS. Technically most of the big round bombs should have plenty of RCS to be intercepted. But as others have pointed out, someone at ED made the call to put them in the "do not intercept" category. 

 

IRL its significantly more complicated though, and just because you might see a bomb, or not, or decide to try to shoot it, or not, and if that shot is gonna actually hit etc. So its a pretty big can of worms.

 

Online, I often see single ship flights of either viggens or Jeffs shooting ASM's at battle groups. IRL, you'd have a squadron+ sized package doing that because IRL 2 or 4 missiles have basically no chance against a integrated ship defense system, the only way to get hits is to swamp those systems, but I routinely see the 25%-50% of the missiles fired actually get hits. Good for the "game" I guess.

 


Edited by Harlikwin

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There is an IRL chart for attacking and taking out Russian ships with Harpoons ... it's pretty old, but it has two interesting columns:

 

A. Number of harpoons to render target combat ineffective

B. Price of admission

 

B basically describes how many harpoons will be shot down so that you can achieve A, so your volley size is A+B


Some of those ships will be done with a single hit, but you need to volley 4 harpoons and they're not exactly ships that are at the top of anti-air capability.

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5 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

There is an IRL chart for attacking and taking out Russian ships with Harpoons ... it's pretty old, but it has two interesting columns:

 

A. Number of harpoons to render target combat ineffective

B. Price of admission

 

B basically describes how many harpoons will be shot down so that you can achieve A, so your volley size is A+B


Some of those ships will be done with a single hit, but you need to volley 4 harpoons and they're not exactly ships that are at the top of anti-air capability.

 

Yeah I've seen those charts, and those are against older less capable "cold war" era opponents IIRC. And certainly 1 hit from an ASM could render a modern surface combatant inop, you are gonna need to shoot half a dozen or a dozen to get through was my point. And when I'm seeing a whole CVBG in a tight formation take the occasional AK802 hits (i.e. 1 missile out of 2 fired), I kinda cringe. I mean I get it that its "possible" that the world luckiest missile gets through like 1% of the time, but its more like 20% in DCS.

 

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3 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Yeah I've seen those charts, and those are against older less capable "cold war" era opponents IIRC. And certainly 1 hit from an ASM could render a modern surface combatant inop, you are gonna need to shoot half a dozen or a dozen to get through was my point. And when I'm seeing a whole CVBG in a tight formation take the occasional AK802 hits (i.e. 1 missile out of 2 fired), I kinda cringe. I mean I get it that its "possible" that the world luckiest missile gets through like 1% of the time, but its more like 20% in DCS.

 

I assume no one has come across charts showing the likely hood of hypersonic missiles hitting? If we do get the CM-400 that will be a interesting capability.


Edited by Blinky.ben
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6 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

I assume no one has come across charts showing the likely hood of hypersonic missiles hitting? If we do get the CM-400 that will be a interesting capability.

 

No, and obviously its a way harder problem than subsonic missiles from a defense point of view. But OTOH the naval modeling in DCS is currently waay too simplistic.  

For example major problems:

 

No multiple radar modeling (goes with damage modeling)

No compartmentalized damage/damage control/damage repair model (this is a major one)

No use of realistic countermeasures by ships. I.e. Chaff, Flares, Smoke etc.

No realistic evasive maneuvers (I mean laughably 90% of the ships I see online are parked, and used as mobile sam sites), the least ED could do is give them basic "coastline" avoidance logic, give mission designers some basic "formations" and "racetrack" waypoint logic. And then within that context ships could last ditch maneuvering if engaged by missiles.

 

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21 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

I assume no one has come across charts showing the likely hood of hypersonic missiles hitting? If we do get the CM-400 that will be a interesting capability.

 

No, but you could try to compute it - you don't have modern air defenses on the ships either, so to speak.   CM-400 isn't hypersonic either, and you'll probably need to launch it on a high altitude profile to have it attack at over mach 2.


Edited by GGTharos

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Just now, GGTharos said:

 

No, but you could try to compute it - you don't have modern air defenses on the ships either, so to speak.   CM-400 isn't hypersonic either, and you'll probably need to launch it on a high altitude profile to have it attack at over mach 2.

 

 

I assumed he mean supersonic. Everything we have is subsonic. And the burke is relatively modern, supersonic ASM's have been around for a long while too.

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Just now, GGTharos said:

As far as I'm concerned, there are no modern air defenses on those ships, just missiles that have more range 🙂

Lol, entirely fair.

 

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On 2/11/2021 at 12:59 PM, Mirknir said:

Again today, in our mission to go destroy Al Tabqah dam power hub, my 2 GB-6 were intercepted by one SAM that killed them both 😬

 

I know it's a thing in DCS but still, it's kind of ruining the gliding bomb purpose.

Is there any way to drop them like the Viggen does its gliding bomb? Low and fast?

It seems like the GB-6 prefers high and fast and I have mixed results when dropping them too low.

 

Thanks


Once the GB-6s are launched, I usually follow up with a couple of LD-10s set to the same SPI. Ingress at low level, pop-up, release the GB-6s followed by the LD-10s. Dive back down then egress out at low-level. Pretty effective against SA-10s and SA-15s.

One thing nice about the JF-17 in DCS is that you can carry asymmetric loadouts of SD-10s and LD-10s without affecting drag too much.

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