"Persian Cat" Armament

[RavenFrost]

I'm sure this has been questioned befor, but i can't find it.

Which weapons are we getting or can be expected?

 

No Tanks

AIM-54A ?

AIM-9....?

AIM-7....?

My Modelkit for the "Cat" has MIM-23A. It looks like they modified HAWK Missiles for A2A use.

 

[Quid]

If it's done right, it will be the E/J/P family of AIM-9s (Iran didn't buy the D/G/H Navy versions, nor did it receive the L before the revolution), and the E-family Sparrows.  Heatblur did say something to the effect of they would see what's available in DCS.  Just from rudimentary mission building, I know the AIM-7E is available on the AI F-4 and the AIM-9P is on the F-5, so I'd assume those could be added to the IRIAF F-14, but we'll see what they come up with in the end.  The AIM-54A is the only version Iran operated; not sure if they ever got anything other than the Mk 47 motor.

 

The Hawk is a probable negative based on discussion in some other threads, and considering it had problems "talking" to the AWG-9, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[draconus]

Afaik HB has to make a special copy (rotated 45 degrees) of any Sparrow that is to be placed under Tomcat.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Even for our own early-135-GR it would be quite nice to have the AIM-7E-4, since the -F was introduced at a time when the F-14 has already been in service for a few years.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
typo

[Quid]

25 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Even for our own early-135-GR it would be quite nice to have the AIM-7E-4, since the -F was introduced at a time when the F-14 has already been in service for a few years.

 

I'm all about variety, but the Block 135 was first delivered in 1985 with the majority of the block delivered in 1986.  Given that the AIM-7M was already in service by 1982, the oldest model Sparrow one would expect to find on a front line F-14 by this time would be the AIM-7F (introduced operationally between 1976 and 1977).

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Ok thanks @Quid, I guess I was wrong in my assumption it was a '70s version :)

[9thHunt]

20 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Ok thanks @Quid, I guess I was wrong in my assumption it was a '70s version

yeah, the Early vs. Late nomenclature is a bit misleading.  In fact the -135GR is one of the last blocks before they retooled to the A+.

[Skysurfer]

I sure hope we get proper, white AIM54A textures for the early models and the IRIAF cat. Something that should have been done properly day one.

[RustBelt]

On 12/11/2020 at 2:42 PM, RavenFrost said:

I'm sure this has been questioned befor,

 

So very many times.....

On 12/11/2020 at 5:40 PM, draconus said:

Afaik HB has to make a special copy (rotated 45 degrees) of any Sparrow that is to be placed under Tomcat.

I think that was with the old pre-SDK. The missiles are "Supposed" to be lego bricks now. Supposed to be.....

[RustBelt]

7 hours ago, 9thHunt said:

yeah, the Early vs. Late nomenclature is a bit misleading.  In fact the -135GR is one of the last blocks before they retooled to the A+.

Even more convoluted, there were Late A's that out lived A+ Squadrons at the end. They already had a lot of parts and logistics in the TF-30, and NAVY doesn't get rid of anything before it has to. Basically the Late A is Contemporary with the "B" (aka A+) especially for DCS purposes. Just like Block 50 and Block 52 Falcons. Different engine, basically same everything else.

[Quid]

1 hour ago, RustBelt said:

Even more convoluted, there were Late A's that out lived A+ Squadrons at the end. They already had a lot of parts and logistics in the TF-30, and NAVY doesn't get rid of anything before it has to. Basically the Late A is Contemporary with the "B" (aka A+) especially for DCS purposes. Just like Block 50 and Block 52 Falcons. Different engine, basically same everything else.

Indeed it is convoluted; the Block 135 Late is really a Frankenplane; the F-14A didn't get the ALR-67 until some time around 2001 based on video and photographic evidence; even the NATOPS doesn't list the system by 2004 (the final -A NATOPS), but cruise footage from 2002 shows the system clearly.  By the time the A model got the ALR-67, it already had the PTIDS and DFCS for several years.  IIRC HB have said they don't have the documentation to accurately model either PTIDS or DFCS, so we won't be seeing either in spite of having an even later RWR system.  The Block 135 Early should be a close representation of the plane from about 1985 to 1995.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

17 hours ago, 9thHunt said:

yeah, the Early vs. Late nomenclature is a bit misleading.  In fact the -135GR is one of the last blocks before they retooled to the A+.

I don't want to derail this thread any further, but still would like some more information on this:
I found a few website that list block numbers, the FY of production, and associated BuNo numbers (Block 135 is listed as produced in 1984), but they sadly don't mention what the actual differences are between blocks. Do you (or anyone else here) perhaps know of a source that lists more information on those actual differences between the various blocks?

[Quid]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I don't want to derail this thread any further, but still would like some more information on this:
I found a few website that list block numbers, the FY of production, and associated BuNo numbers (Block 135 is listed as produced in 1984), but they sadly don't mention what the actual differences are between blocks. Do you (or anyone else here) perhaps know of a source that lists more information on those actual differences between the various blocks?

They were probably ordered and/or production began in 1984; I think that's from Torsten Anft's site.  Paul Gillcrist's "TOMCAT! The Grumman F-14 Story" has the delivery dates of every airframe (DD-250 date), which was my source for when the Block 135s actually started showing up (first one 17 April 1985, last one 25 March 1986).  Differences in the blocks can be found in numerous sources; topedge has a nice little consolidation at the top of each block page and it seems mostly accurate.  Some changes happened as the block was happening, especially early on; for example, the boat tail modification happened during Block 75, and there's picture evidence of early line Block 75s with the original configuration, and later Block 75s with the new one.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

21 minutes ago, Quid said:

topedge has a nice little consolidation at the top of each block page

Yeah thanks, somehow I missed that: I was looking at the actual tables and didn't see the text above... 

[Southernbear]

The AIM-7E-4 was only used on US F-14s during Operation Frequent Wind over Vietnam in 1975. The AIM-7F entered service in 1976 so aside from OFW she didn't really use them. Although I am one for saying the F-14-135-GR early should get the options for AIM-7Es and AIM-9Hs used in the Op just so you can recreate to the best of our abilities that era of combat. 

 

(Bellow) F-14A's from VF-1 'Wolfpack' Over Vietnam providing CAP during Operation Frequent Wind

 

As for the "Persian" Cats or the F-14-95-GR we have several things. First off they got deliveries of 284 AIM-54A Mk.47s buy the time of the Hostage Crisis as this weapon was the main feature they wanted to intercept Mig 25s and the main reason Iran chose the F-14 over the F-15. For FOX1 and FOX2 weapons though it gets a little bit more tricky.  Col. (rtd) Fereydoun A. Mazandarani states in interviews that Iran bought AIM-7Fs and AIM-9Ls for their F-14s but these weapons never got delivered due to the Hostage crisis, Some secondary sources state that Iran never intended to get the AIM-9L and some state they never indented or were able to get either. Regardless what they did end up using were AIM-9P-3s which are essentially Export models of the Airforce's AIM-9J and they took AIM-7Es from their F-4 Phantom's inventory and used those on the airframe. 

 

(Above) Iranian Tomcat with AIM-9P-3 and AIM-54As

(Bellow) AIM-9 Sidewinder family for reference.

Now we come to the exotic weapons, Due to lack of spare parts and their AIM-54 stocks being depleted somewhat during the Iran-Iraq war Iran went through several programs to adapt Soviet weapons onto the airframe. These were the R-73 and R-27, both programs from what US and Iranian sources indicate didn't work out and were scrapped. What was used however was the MiM-23 HAWK Surface to Air missile being adapted to work with the AWG-9 radar with allegedly this weapon being used twice in anger. 

 

(Above) Iranian Tomcats with AIM-54s and MiM-23 HAWK missiles.

(Bellow) R-27 Fitted to Iranian F-14.

 

Heatblur has expressed an interest to try and represent earlier conventional weapons such as the AIM-7E and AIM-9P-3/AIM-9H for both US and Iranian Tomcats as well as some of the more unusual ones such as the HAWK missile but nothing as of yet has been confirmed or is concrete at the moment. Hopefully we got more information in the coming months. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Southernbear

[stuart666]

Its worth remembering, the Iranians,  after the war with Iraq started, received weapons not only from America but also Israel. Im not sure exactlywhat they got, for the most part it was outmoded weapons the Israelis were getting rid of anyway, but its conceivable they might have had more advanced sparrows and Sidewinders than the book says by the end of the 1980's. According to once source, the Iranians also received bomb racks to they could carry bombs under the fuselage, though they never seem to have actually used them. They apparently received upgrade kits to convert their Aim54's into a more advanced version (im not sure quite what) and asked for many more kits than they had weapons for, presumably so they could make their own weapons. The Americans refused.

 

TBH, if I was Heatblur, I would model it as it was delivered, not as it was later in the 1980's. As others have pointed out, when you go down the rabbit hole of modelling everything they hung on it, there is probably no stopping before insanity beckons.

[draconus]

Imho the devs should deliver historical and operationally used weapons first but, later on, there should be allowed any weapon that could be used without any modifications (hw or sw) needed on the aircraft. It would be a loss and against sandbox idea to not have fictional (but possible as explained above) options in DCS. It would be up to the player (SP) or mission creator to decide what is available.

Edited December 15, 2020 by draconus

[9thHunt]

On 12/13/2020 at 7:13 AM, Quid said:

They were probably ordered and/or production began in 1984; I think that's from Torsten Anft's site.  Paul Gillcrist's "TOMCAT! The Grumman F-14 Story" has the delivery dates of every airframe (DD-250 date), which was my source for when the Block 135s actually started showing up (first one 17 April 1985, last one 25 March 1986).  Differences in the blocks can be found in numerous sources; topedge has a nice little consolidation at the top of each block page and it seems mostly accurate.  Some changes happened as the block was happening, especially early on; for example, the boat tail modification happened during Block 75, and there's picture evidence of early line Block 75s with the original configuration, and later Block 75s with the new one.

Interesting, if TopEdge is accurate, there isn't really a substantial difference between the early block -135s and the block -95 Persian 'cats (aside from the stuff they removed for the FMS).  At least the block pages didn't list any changes.

 

I'm guessing that the gun vents and the ECM fairings were retrofitted changes, rather then stuff introduced during productions, because I didn't see any reference to those on the block pages.

Edited December 15, 2020 by 9thHunt

[Quid]

28 minutes ago, 9thHunt said:

Interesting, if TopEdge is accurate, there isn't really a substantial difference between the early block -135s and the block -95 Persian 'cats (aside from the stuff they removed for the FMS).  At least the block pages didn't list any changes.

 

I'm guessing that the gun vents and the ECM fairings were retrofitted changes, rather then stuff introduced during productions, because I didn't see any reference to those on the block pages.

 

Well, TopEdge has the bigger/more noticeable changes, but you'd notice a few between Block 95 and Block 135 - the Engine Stall Warning System (L STALL/R STALL lights and tone) were installed from 1982 (would not be in an Iranian F-14), the AIM-9 seeker head position on the HUD wasn't added until 1985 (probably as a standard during Block 135 production, would not be in an Iranian F-14), the spoilers were adjusted to lock down at 62 degrees rather than 57, etc.  Some of the changes were internal, some were software, some were airframe, landing gear (higher gross weight landings allowed at 54,000lbs vs. 51,800lbs), etc.  So, there were further modifications to the airframe happening, but it starts to become excessive to try to fit all of the changes into a short paragraph at the top of a page.

[Isenderen]

On 12/12/2020 at 7:08 PM, RustBelt said:

I think that was with the old pre-SDK. The missiles are "Supposed" to be lego bricks now. Supposed to be.....

They pretty much are lego bricks now. I assume theres some code directly in the stations coding that gives the correct rotations. With some minor translation (x/y/z axis positioning) issues that i have yet to figure out how to fix the AIM-120s will show up rotated correctly when i put singles on 1B, 3,4,5,6, and 8B in my F-14BM mod. And other Sidewinders will just show up in the correct positions by default, the tricky part there was figuring out how to get the rails to show up.

[Bremspropeller]

I'm wondering whether the -95 would be a reasonable stand-in for the very early Navy Tomcats, deployed in the mid 70s.

I know there are some external differences, but capability wise they shouldn't differ too much, should they?

[Xeno426]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:41 PM, Southernbear said:

[lots of images]

Problem is that just because the Iranians managed to fix the weapon to the airframe, doesn't mean they managed to integrate them to the onboard systems. They might have tried, but that doesn't show they [i]did[/i]. There's also the question of how the heck they are integrated; how do they interact with the radar and onboard systems? How is information displayed?

 

I mean, I'd love to see some of this equipment added, but one has to wonder if the F-14s capable of using any of this kit didn't also receive lots of other changes or upgrades that further divorces them from the original 95-GR specifications.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Xeno426

[Dragon1-1]

Well, the R-27 probably just used Sparrow symbology, they're both SARH missiles, after all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they just made the F-14 think it's a Sparrow.  Whether the F-14's radar would actually guide it is another question.

[Southernbear]

11 hours ago, Xeno426 said:

Problem is that just because the Iranians managed to fix the weapon to the airframe, doesn't mean they managed to integrate them to the onboard systems. They might have tried, but that doesn't show they [i]did[/i]. There's also the question of how the heck they are integrated; how do they interact with the radar and onboard systems? How is information displayed?

 

I mean, I'd love to see some of this equipment added, but one has to wonder if the F-14s capable of using any of this kit didn't also receive lots of other changes or upgrades that further divorces them from the original 95-GR specifications.

 

According to Iranian sources they did fire the HAWK missile twice in combat situations. But there isn't much details on how successful it went assuming of course you take the Iranians at their word. As for the Russian weapons they have not seen service.

[stuart666]

There is a video on youtube with the Iranian guy who claimed (I dont disbelieve him, there is some evidence for it) to have shot down 3 Iraqi Mirages with one Phoenix.  Anyway, he related he used a Hawk against a Mig29, I think he said it was a raid on Tehran or something. They both hit each other, he brought down the Mig, but the mig hit him, knocking out an engine and damaging a radome.

 

So yes, they certainly used it. But that the Iranians now seem to use Phoenix airframes with Hawk innards says something about how successful they felt the integration was.  I think I read somewhere it was fairly unstable when released from the airframe.

 

Im really not sure its worth the devs efforts to introduce a weapon that was used so little and was withdrawn after the war. Sure, I would like to see it. But I think they have been generous enough. I dont expect it.

 

One thought occurs. Supposedly under Iran/contra, the US supplied bomb racks to the Iranians. They never used them (because after all, who wants to use an F14 as a bomb truck), but presumably they still have them. Does that warrant inclusion of the bombing mode? I idly wonder if it was even fitted as an option when the aircraft was delivered. Again, its probably not worth the devs time, but its an interesting thing to think about all the same.

Edited January 21, 2021 by stuart666