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Patch Dec 17th Feedback Thread


IronMike

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I hope you don't expect a reply to any of this... That's not feedback, that's offloading your frustrations based on feelings. That's fine by me, if it makes you feel better. But honestly, it doesn't mean anything at all, sorry if I have to put it so bluntly.

If you noticed the FM being still "off" for the B, then let us know how, for example by giving numbers, turn rates, etc.. and not just spewing ... something. You don't even mention what loadout you had, or anything at all for that matter. So far no one reported anything being off with the -B FM, to the contrary, we tuned it back, and the reports we had so far, confirmed this. Else, look at the numbers Mbot posted. It will give you also an idea what feedback can look like.

 

And if you honestly think that the Tomcat is the biggest "pricktease" of your life, and we wilfully mislead you, there's little I can help you with.
 


Edited by IronMike

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40 minutes ago, IronMike said:

I hope you don't expect a reply to any of this... That's not feedback, that's offloading your frustrations based on feelings. That's fine by me, if it makes you feel better. But honestly, it doesn't mean anything at all, sorry if I have to put it so bluntly.

If you noticed the FM being still "off" for the B, then let us know how, for example by giving numbers, turn rates, etc..
 

 

Details, stats and metrics never mattered before. I gave you those based on tacviews I reviewed from before and after. You just straight up told me I was wrong and never did X or Y metric it was actually W or Z. so what's the point.

but honestly, how would I know what's accurate or not. seems like everything is pretty dynamic and somebody's always behind the scense yanking away on strings connected to whatever my controls are in a server.
 


Edited by Ur_A_Cop
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31 minutes ago, IronMike said:

that's offloading your frustrations based on feelings.
 

 

Isn't one area of review the SME's you consult go over is if the sim feels right? So they verify flight model performance to some degree based on feel as well, correct?

31 minutes ago, IronMike said:

If you noticed the FM being still "off" for the B, then let us know how,
 

 

And IMO, saying it handles like a 40 ton F-5E is pretty descriptive. Hop in an clean F-5E and 1v1 gun fight a clean hornet flown by a human that's halfway competent at BFM, then just adjust the AC weight of the F-5E to 50,000 or 60000lbs with the proportional adjustment to TWR to match the F-5E and voila, you have the current F14B flight model


Edited by Ur_A_Cop
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 For all I know, when I flew the F14B over the past year, it could have really been an F22 flight model and I'd never have known the difference.
All I'd be able to do is say afterflying it is "mang dis don turnt gud no mo" and look and tacview and be like "mang dayt honet is geddin 23 degrees a seccid an I'm only geddin 17. dayt not gud maff" now it just seems like I'm playing "three shells and a pea" with the bad ass flight model in DCS fighter modules.


Edited by Ur_A_Cop
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2 hours ago, Ur_A_Cop said:

Details, stats and metrics never mattered before. I gave you those based on tacviews I reviewed from before and after. You just straight up told me I was wrong and never did X or Y metric it was actually W or Z. so what's the point.

but honestly, how would I know what's accurate or not. seems like everything is pretty dynamic and somebody's always yanking away on strings connected to whatever my controls are in a server.

 

 

You pm-ed me about what the turn rate would be - 16 seconds or 23 seconds, and I told you that it never was 23 seconds. If you have that tacview, which you didnt mention at all that you took that from a tacview, then please post it here, for everyone to see. Also, I do not appreciate being approached all nicely and kindly in PMs, to take my time to explain stuff to you, over the course of several messages, having a friendly conversation, and then being lombasted from the side publicly and called a lier. Or as if we wouldnt care or "what's the point"... That's not ok, not even remotely.

And btw the numbers matter. You wrote me about an issue we believed to be fixed for this patch, wanting explained what fixed meant, not providing any test results or anything, just asking which it was, and I quote:

"Is that like "16 degrees/second STRT while maintaining 15-17 units AOA at 300-350kts" fixed internally?

 

Or like "23 degrees/second STRT while maintaining 15-17 units AOA at 300-350kts" fixed internally(the way it was before the 11/23/2020 OB update)?"

 

Now that the patch is out, and if it indeed isn't fixed yet, then yes, we need to see the numbers. Numbers we always take into account, also yours and despite your attitude.

All of what you say, sorry, indicates that you have little clue about what you are talking about. Yes, let us calculate our FM being off based on your feelings minus an F-5 plus 60thousand tons, or whatever - do you even hear how ridiculous that sounds? Also, you did not quite understand what I told you about SME input and how the FM "feels". Suffice to say: their memory of how it feels, matters. Yours does not. Again sorry to put it so bluntly. It's with saying stuff like that, where I cannot take your input seriously anymore.

I also suggest that you quit replying, unless you have anything constructive to add. That kind of tone and accusations are definitely not appreciated. Sometimes it helps to step off and cool down a bit.


 


Edited by IronMike
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Just now, Ur_A_Cop said:

Tough to argue a point in a dictatorship

 

 

Just stop, ok? that is the 4th post in a row I will hide now from you and issue you a warning. You are trolling, being off-topic and derailing the thread. It is nothing personal, but I really suggest you go and cool down if you do not want to be banned. Behave differently and stay on topic and no one will have to hide your posts, I have btw a lot of other and better stuff to do than trying to keep this thread clean, because you cannot cool off.

Heatblur Simulations

 

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IronMike, I think problems with Phoenix now are in the midcourse phase, just before reaching  pitbull distances. I think missile does not correct his flightpath and it is not taking into account what the radar is sending. I have tested several launches against not manouvering target hot at 40-50NM without radar disengage and almost all missiles were missed. Also had same behaviour with the missiles launched in TWS. Now Im using Phoenix in ACM arena, below 10 NM, where looks like I can have more probability of kill.

Thank you anyway for your effort.


Edited by chichowalker
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Thank you for all your work and effort HB, this update is great !

Thank you IronMike for your patience and your careful reading of all the feedbacks.

 

Keep up the good work. Merry Christmas and very best wishes to the Team.

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Kind regards,

Vince

 

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38 minutes ago, chichowalker said:

IronMike, I think problems with Phoenix now are in the midcourse phase, just before reaching  pitbull distances. I think missile does not correct his flightpath and it is not taking into account what the radar is sending. I have tested several launches against not manouvering target hot at 40-50NM without radar disengage and almost all missiles were missed. Also had same behaviour with the missiles launched in TWS. Now Im using Phoenix in ACM arena, below 10 NM, where looks like I can have more probability of kill.

Thank you anyway for your effort.

 


Thanks. We believe this is due to our missiles using an older FM environment now, we need to see with ED how to update it.

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Really cool to see that the target size switch does something now.

However... I can't bind it to anything. Could we get some of those nice three-way switch options in the keybindings? Or perhaps someone knows how to implement this by editing the current lua files?

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36 minutes ago, MisterVince said:

Thank you for all your work and effort HB, this update is great !

Thank you IronMike for your patience and your careful reading of all the feedbacks.

 

Keep up the good work. Merry Christmas and very best wishes to the Team.



Thank you for the kind words, it is our pleasure as always.
 

Just now, Xeno426 said:

Really cool to see that the target size switch does something now.

However... I can't bind it to anything. Could we get some of those nice three-way switch options in the keybindings? Or perhaps someone knows how to implement this by editing the current lua files?


I think we can do something like that. Please add it to the keybindings wishlist in the bug section, so we don't forget about it. Thank you!


Edited by IronMike

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3 hours ago, chichowalker said:

IronMike, I think problems with Phoenix now are in the midcourse phase, just before reaching  pitbull distances. I think missile does not correct his flightpath and it is not taking into account what the radar is sending. I have tested several launches against not manouvering target hot at 40-50NM without radar disengage and almost all missiles were missed. Also had same behaviour with the missiles launched in TWS. Now Im using Phoenix in ACM arena, below 10 NM, where looks like I can have more probability of kill.

Thank you anyway for your effort.

 

There's also something wrong during the very first part of the missile's flight. Here, in TWS, immediately after being shot, it turns toward the target's position instead of taking the lead as it should. Two problem: 1) it condemns itself to a lag trajectory, bleeding out energy and 2) it over-exposes itself to chaff. That behaviour is standard, anybody can reproduce it anytime. Here, it hits the target which flies on a straight path. Any wise evasive action will be successful.

Capture-1.JPG

Tacview-20201219-115943-DCS-Caucasus-AIM-54-LR-test.zip.acmi

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Good morning HB,

 

I had the privilege of finally testing out the new update for the tomcat today and oh boy what a beast it has been. I almost exclusively play online pvp and tonight I was no different facing off against Jeffs and hornets. Using the aim54C i scored 14 air to air kills and netted only one death which was a trade against a different tomcat during an accidental merge. 11 of these kills were against player fighters and i maintained a strict regime of firing at around 40 miles then notching to the gimball limit and keeping them above me to avoid their notch. I've noticed with the target size set to small the phonic would consistently go active at 8 TTI and the flashing indication allowed me to go STT on the bad guy for a follow up shot should the first missile miss (about a 25 percent chance). On a couple occasions the target successfully notched me and in dead reckoning mode the missile went active and found it's target for a kill. Finally, while searching for a huey with the help of a gci i locked a lone bradley in the middle of the UAE desert in pstt (confirmed through tcs).

 

Unfortunately the server i played on does not allow for tacview files to see anything but your own aircraft which is a shame because this morning felt special. Overall I'd say this update was a great thing for the tomcat, I've been able to super cruise at 300 msl, outrun sd-10's with ease, and shoot unavoidable phoenixes to defend my friendly warthogs from bad guys. A very nice feature is the consistently updating TTI that changes with the actual time the missile takes to get to the target. I find watching the TTI pause allows for me to know when a bandit has turned cold and plan accordingly.

 

Sorry for the word jumble, i made an account just to make this post. Even if these new features are unrealistic/broken i had a ton of fun using them while they're here and i appreciate the steps heatblur has made to bring our aircraft closer what it could be.

 

Yours truly,

Dan

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3 hours ago, *Aquila* said:

There's also something wrong during the very first part of the missile's flight. Here, in TWS, immediately after being shot, it turns toward the target's position instead of taking the lead as it should. Two problem: 1) it condemns itself to a lag trajectory, bleeding out energy and 2) it over-exposes itself to chaff. That behaviour is standard, anybody can reproduce it anytime. Here, it hits the target which flies on a straight path. Any wise evasive action will be successful.

Capture-1.JPG

Tacview-20201219-115943-DCS-Caucasus-AIM-54-LR-test.zip.acmi 56.78 kB · 2 downloads

TWS, launch at < 10 nm. The AIM-54 is active off the rail and behaves well: it takes the lead from the beginning of its path. Looks like the lag path problem is when the AWG-9 is in the loop.

 

 

Capture.JPG

 

Tacview-20201219-144149-DCS.zip.acmi


Edited by *Aquila*
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This fellow uracop is a wannabe Laobi...except that Laobi uses crass, brash sidebars with positivity, incisive wit, and is hilarious. This guy is no Laobi.   

 

Hang in there IronMike.   Your F14 was already the best $80 I've ever spent on pleasure, and it keeps getting better.

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Sorry if ive missed it among the chaff clutter but whst does jester default to regarding target size? Will he just lesve it in a default setting or will he change it himself?

Also whats the reason for rhe different pitbill ranges? Is it purely to give the target less wsrning and to help missile radwr performance? Ie it might struggle to find a small target at 10 miles plus

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4 hours ago, DreKraft said:

The turning rate of f14b still remains unchanged, which is the result of 1% fuel  and no wind at 20 ℃. If it is 50% fuel, the TRT is only about 18. It's almost the same as the last problematic version.

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to put it together for us so nicely, it is much appreciated. We will definitely investigate.

 

29 minutes ago, Alphabet_Ghost said:

pilot can still control aircraft when blackout , LoL .


 that's realism, duh, mustache gives blackout power to tomcat pilot, everyone knows that, common, Ghost...😆


Edited by IronMike

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4 hours ago, manashttu said:

This fellow uracop is a wannabe Laobi...except that Laobi uses crass, brash sidebars with positivity, incisive wit, and is hilarious. This guy is no Laobi.   

 

Hang in there IronMike.   Your F14 was already the best $80 I've ever spent on pleasure, and it keeps getting better.



Yeah, well, you know. We all have our 5 minutes every now and then, I had my fair share in my life. I understand how bugs for your favorite toy can be super frustrating, it's at least double as frustrating for us. It bothers me greatly that Cop didn't enjoy himself, too. Even after this a bit off exchange, it really does. We want all of you to have the best possible fun. But the thing is, there is merit to Cop's impression, alas, with feedback like that we have nothing to work with. And we are open for the harshest of criticism, if it is fair, just not for wild accusations. Personally, I couldn't care less, it makes me chuckle, if someone calls me a dictator and stalinist, hahaha. That's also not the reason why I hid the messages. The reason is to keep a positive thread positive and keep out negative energy. By positive I of course do not mean the feedback you guys give, but the way we all go about it, whether that is negative or positive feedback. IMO, this is an incredibly positive thread, because so many are so helpful, to us, to each other, etc.. That's what is great about this community. We all sit in the same boat, and we want the DCS environment to be fun, and a happy place for ya'll. So we all need to contribute to that together.

I have no hard feelings towards Cop, and I hope with a night sleep over it, he will feel the same way. And he seems to be right, btw. The turn performance does seem to be still off somewhat. We will investigate, now that we have a bit more numbers to work on.


EDIT: I forgot to say thank you for your very kind words, manashttu. My apologies. It is very much appreciated.


Edited by IronMike
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Heatblur Simulations

 

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@IronMike

 

Did a quick test and I can confirm that the F-14 is still seriously underperforming in sustained turn rate:

 

DCS vs RL, 55,600 lbs, 4x4 AIM7 & AIM9 @ SL

400 KTAS (M 0.60) = ~6.2 G vs 6.5 G  

332 KTAS (M 0.50) = ~5.2 G vs 5.7 G

 

That's 0.3-0.5 G missing at just those two speeds.

 

I have to admit this puzzles me. It seems like you're not testing and comparing your FM to the available charts before you ship it, which annoys me as we've been waiting a long time for this to be fixed now.  Sorry for being negative like that, but it's just how I honestly feel about it. 

 

Please fix this soon.


Edited by Hummingbird
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