I'm a computer dummy that just wants to fly. Please help! (description and compy info included)

[Jakey-Poo]

DISCLAIMER:  My wife built my computer (laugh it up, chuckles) and I am computer illiterate, so any delays in my responses are because my dumb ass will need to parse everything through her.

 

From what I can tell I may need more RAM (?), but I would like to pick your brains before investing into a solution that may be a dead end.

 

The problem:

Horrible FPS drops and stuttering on large/populated single player missions.  Down to like ~7 FPS at times.  Otherwise she runs OK.  I badly want to buy a the Channel map, but am worried it would be a waste if I can't get Normandy to even run smooth.

 

Attempts (futile) at resolution:

 - Played with all in game settings (water, heat blur, MSAA, SSAA, Shadows, SSLR, Lens Effects, Clutter, Trees, etc...).  The only things I refuse to do are screw with textures and the overall "prettiness" of the game.

 - played with every setting in my Radeon panel.

 - tried every trick in the book that google, and this forum, suggested (override application settings, played with MSAA, messed with anisotropic filtering, messed with Vsync, etc...)

 

Compy stats:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600X 6-core
Motherboard: B450 Gaming Plus Max (MS-7B86)
Ram: 16 GB
SSD
GPU: AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT
OS: Windows 10

 

Thanks for any and all input.  It is very appreciated.  I can (probly) afford to resolve the issue because apparently my computer is decent, but I can't afford to blow money needlessly. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Jakey-Poo

[98abaile]

If it's an issue only on very heavily populated missions, I'd say the RAM is the bottleneck. 32GB is recommended.

[Thinder]

8 hours ago, Jakey-Poo said:

DISCLAIMER:  My wife built my computer (laugh it up, chuckles) and I am computer illiterate, so any delays in my responses are because my dumb ass will need to parse everything through her.

 

From what I can tell I may need more RAM (?), but I would like to pick your brains before investing into a solution that may be a dead end.

 

The problem:

Horrible FPS drops and stuttering on large/populated single player missions.  Down to like ~7 FPS at times.  Otherwise she runs OK.  I badly want to buy a the Channel map, but am worried it would be a waste if I can't get Normandy to even run smooth.

 

Attempts (futile) at resolution:

 - Played with all in game settings (water, heat blur, MSAA, SSAA, Shadows, SSLR, Lens Effects, Clutter, Trees, etc...).  The only things I refuse to do are screw with textures and the overall "prettiness" of the game.

 - played with every setting in my Radeon panel.

 - tried every trick in the book that google, and this forum, suggested (override application settings, played with MSAA, messed with anisotropic filtering, messed with Vsync, etc...)

 

Compy stats:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600X 6-core
Motherboard: B450 Gaming Plus Max (MS-7B86)
Ram: 16 GB
SSD
GPU: AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT
OS: Windows 10

 

Thanks for any and all input.  It is very appreciated.  I can (probly) afford to resolve the issue because apparently my computer is decent, but I can't afford to blow money needlessly. 

 

 

I was about to say the same than 98abaile.

 

The minimum amount of RAM will help your system run smoother, you can also help by setting a page file on a different drive, allocated to programs (not background apps) and about twice the size of your total amount of RAM, on my system, including the minimum used by the C drive (min 16 Mb max 16 Mb) I have 32784 Mb allocated to page files on my fastest SSD.

 

I installed a Samsung V-Nand SSD 500GB (M2 slot) and run both DCS and DCS Open Beta on it, it runs at <> up to 3500 MB/sec R/W, make sure you minimize the number oif apps running in the background, the lower, the better.

 

For the rest of your specs, I really like the the B450 Gaming Plus Max, it has limitations compared to a X750 for example, it doesn't support PCI Gen4, but it is fairly fast and very reliable.

 

Be careful if you  plan to update the BIOS because there are updates for this board and it is meant to be used for the Ryzen 5000 serie only: (AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.1.0.0 support for Zen3 Vermeer 5000 series CPU 2020-11-27 and a Beta version,  AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.1.0.0 Patch D 2020-12-10), so make sure you download the previous BIOS for the 3600X.

 

The 3600X is OK, I run it at the moment with Ryzen Master, so is your GPU, although you'll need to get at least a 1080 Ti 11GB if you want to play in complex maps or/and VR, my advise, since you'll probably will feel like upgrading in the future, focuse on cooling first, GPU like CPU are thermally limited, there's no point running more powerful gear if they reach their thermal limit. A good case cooling will always help.

 

All in all, there is little needed but an extra 16GB of RAM to run DCS but your specs, like mine at the moment are limit minimum, in your case, you might bump into thosee limits in some maps or complex scenarios, a warning about RAM upgrade tough, manufacturers doesn't always use the same chips from a batch to another of identical kits, it is far safer to change the whole RAM with a new kit (2 X 16 MB) or at the very least make sure those you get comes from the same batch. If you're in the UK CEX buys used RAM.

 

The 3600X support 4 channels settings and the B450 Gaming Plus Max, although it is a 2 channel board, can support 4 of them as well with BIOS set ups, if you stick with the 3600X it's better to use a two sticks configuration as it will be easier to set up and more stable, I'll recommand Crucial DDR4 3600 CAS latency - 16 for it, I run 3200 but I can improve on RAM speed.

 

In case you upgrade to the Ryzen 5000 series, use the BIOS update and the best RAM would also be DDR4 3600 CAS latency - 16, although the Ryzen 5000 supports the use of 4 sticks with an increase in FPS of up to 10%, the B450 once its BIOS updated won't be a problem.

 

Enjoy yout gaming.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Thinder

[reece146]

 

Your basic spec looks decent. Your wife did a good job with the spec. If DCS was like a normal game you wouldn't be posting.

 

What resolution are you trying to run? I'd expect @ 1080p your machine should give quite good results.

 

Single player, mostly unpopulated, The Channel chews up ~22-24GB of RAM on my machine (4K). Normandy is quite hungry also but I don't remember what my monitoring told me. Wanna say 12-16GB.

 

If you can, as a very basic look at what is happening, watch what the CPU and GPU are doing during your low FPS. Task manager has a view with both CPU and GPU and it will give a basic "CPU is at 100%" or "GPU is at 100%" when you get low FPS. Make sure CPU is showing all cores. It is by default configured to stay on top of the game while running. It's a blunt tool but generally tells the trend. MSI Afterburner can give more fine-grained info (free software).

 

DCS is hard on CPU single core performance. Your slow downs could be due to that single core getting overwhelmed (environmental complexity) or it could be due to the GPU getting overwhelmed (graphics complexity) or it could be due to either getting starved getting the data off the SSD and into memory and into the CPU or GPU (slow bus speeds, RAM might help). Lots of places to look.

 

HTH

Edited December 20, 2020 by reece146

[reece146]

I would also suggest doing your troubleshooting before buying ram. Maybe do your testing on a less heavy map like the Caucasus map. When I first got into DCS I used to use the TF-51D free flight over Tbilisi as my "testing site" for experimenting. Flying low over the town was enough load without totally maxng out the RAM usage. Once you have an idea of what could be the issue there then see how it goes on Normandy.

 

$0.02

[Jakey-Poo]

7 hours ago, Thinder said:

 

I was about to say the same than 98abaile.

 

The minimum amount of RAM will help your system run smoother, you can also help by setting a page file on a different drive, allocated to programs (not background apps) and about twice the size of your total amount of RAM, on my system, including the minimum used by the C drive (min 16 Mb max 16 Mb) I have 32784 Mb allocated to page files on my fastest SSD.

 

I installed a Samsung V-Nand SSD 500GB (M2 slot) and run both DCS and DCS Open Beta on it, it runs at <> up to 3500 MB/sec R/W, make sure you minimize the number oif apps running in the background, the lower, the better.

 

For the rest of your specs, I really like the the B450 Gaming Plus Max, it has limitations compared to a X750 for example, it doesn't support PCI Gen4, but it is fairly fast and very reliable.

 

Be careful if you  plan to update the BIOS because there are updates for this board and it is meant to be used for the Ryzen 5000 serie only: (AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.1.0.0 support for Zen3 Vermeer 5000 series CPU 2020-11-27 and a Beta version,  AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.1.0.0 Patch D 2020-12-10), so make sure you download the previous BIOS for the 3600X.

 

The 3600X is OK, I run it at the moment with Ryzen Master, so is your GPU, although you'll need to get at least a 1080 Ti 11GB if you want to play in complex maps or/and VR, my advise, since you'll probably will feel like upgrading in the future, focuse on cooling first, GPU like CPU are thermally limited, there's no point running more powerful gear if they reach their thermal limit. A good case cooling will always help.

 

All in all, there is little needed but an extra 16GB of RAM to run DCS but your specs, like mine at the moment are limit minimum, in your case, you might bump into thosee limits in some maps or complex scenarios, a warning about RAM upgrade tough, manufacturers doesn't always use the same chips from a batch to another of identical kits, it is far safer to change the whole RAM with a new kit (2 X 16 MB) or at the very least make sure those you get comes from the same batch. If you're in the UK CEX buys used RAM.

 

The 3600X support 4 channels settings and the B450 Gaming Plus Max, although it is a 2 channel board, can support 4 of them as well with BIOS set ups, if you stick with the 3600X it's better to use a two sticks configuration as it will be easier to set up and more stable, I'll recommand Crucial DDR4 3600 CAS latency - 16 for it, I run 3200 but I can improve on RAM speed.

 

In case you upgrade to the Ryzen 5000 series, use the BIOS update and the best RAM would also be DDR4 3600 CAS latency - 16, although the Ryzen 5000 supports the use of 4 sticks with an increase in FPS of up to 10%, the B450 once its BIOS updated won't be a problem.

 

Enjoy yout gaming.

 

 

 

Thank you!  I know that we messed with the BIOS and turned it back (I think) to 3.0, as 4.0 for this card allegedly caused problems.  Thank you also for the suggestions on what to watch out for when buying RAM, I’ll have her read your post as she is about to start shopping. 

[Jakey-Poo]

1 hour ago, reece146 said:

I would also suggest doing your troubleshooting before buying ram. Maybe do your testing on a less heavy map like the Caucasus map. When I first got into DCS I used to use the TF-51D free flight over Tbilisi as my "testing site" for experimenting. Flying low over the town was enough load without totally maxng out the RAM usage. Once you have an idea of what could be the issue there then see how it goes on Normandy.

 

$0.02

Thanks!  I should have thought of running a diagnostic app in the background, there’s even an overlay built into my AMD panel that I can run in game or record the performance and review.  I’ve kind’ve hit a sweet spot with my settings where I can mostly maintain 40fps, but it still drops down to 10-15 at times and the game isn’t as pretty as I want it to be after the settings I had to turn down.  I’ll run the diagnostics tonight if I have time and take that info into account.  Good looking, and thanks again!

[Thinder]

3 hours ago, Jakey-Poo said:

Thanks!  I should have thought of running a diagnostic app in the background, there’s even an overlay built into my AMD panel that I can run in game or record the performance and review.  I’ve kind’ve hit a sweet spot with my settings where I can mostly maintain 40fps, but it still drops down to 10-15 at times and the game isn’t as pretty as I want it to be after the settings I had to turn down.  I’ll run the diagnostics tonight if I have time and take that info into account.  Good looking, and thanks again!

 

You have basic tools in Windows to set up the apps you want to run from start up or not, in Services, you can stop those you don't use (or disable them as I do), and set them to start only manually.

Windows can be optimized to an extend for gamming, there are a lot of apps which are designed for "multimedia" and are pretty useless but still run in the background when you play games, using your RAM and slowing down your whole system.

 

Important, first thing: Create a restore point while your system is stable.

 

You have to understand that DCS is very demanding on VRAM, the Radeon RX 5700 XT is a good card but because of DCS demands on RAM it is limited and could easily be one of the sources of your problems with this game, that's why I upgraded to a 1080Ti 11GB, the amount of RAM and VRAM makes a difference but then again, I use Afterburner with good stable O.C settings to help. (on this screenshot it is not on O.C mode).

Afterburner is a very good tool not only for O.C a card, you can monitor Frame Rate and Frame time, the second is just as important and there are ways to minimize it, you can have the graphs displayed on screen as well so you know what is doing what when you play.

 

 

CPUID-CPU Z is also verry useful, it will tell you everything you need to know about your system and has its own CPU bench, but to check of your settings, you can use different benches such as free versions of 3D Mark or Superposition Benchmark, since I play in VR I also use SteamVR Performance Test for overal information about the readiness of the system for VR.

 

Just don't expect to be runing the game at best settings and high FPS, you can gain some performances but every system has its limitation, if the goal is to get the best of yours we can help with some advise but you can't perform miracles with hardware, once you figured the limits of yours you can look for a good balance between performance and look of the game.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Thinder

[Jakey-Poo]

3 hours ago, Thinder said:

 

You have basic tools in Windows to set up the apps you want to run from start up or not, in Services, you can stop those you don't use (or disable them as I do), and set them to start only manually.

Windows can be optimized to an extend for gamming, there are a lot of apps which are designed for "multimedia" and are pretty useless but still run in the background when you play games, using your RAM and slowing down your whole system.

 

Important, first thing: Create a restore point while your system is stable.

 

You have to understand that DCS is very demanding on VRAM, the Radeon RX 5700 XT is a good card but because of DCS demands on RAM it is limited and could easily be one of the sources of your problems with this game, that's why I upgraded to a 1080Ti 11GB, the amount of RAM and VRAM makes a difference but then again, I use Afterburner with good stable O.C settings to help. (on this screenshot it is not on O.C mode).

Afterburner is a very good tool not only for O.C a card, you can monitor Frame Rate and Frame time, the second is just as important and there are ways to minimize it, you can have the graphs displayed on screen as well so you know what is doing what when you play.

 

 

CPUID-CPU Z is also verry useful, it will tell you everything you need to know about your system and has its own CPU bench, but to check of your settings, you can use different benches such as free versions of 3D Mark or Superposition Benchmark, since I play in VR I also use SteamVR Performance Test for overal information about the readiness of the system for VR.

 

Just don't expect to be runing the game at best settings and high FPS, you can gain some performances but every system has its limitation, if the goal is to get the best of yours we can help with some advise but you can't perform miracles with hardware, once you figured the limits of yours you can look for a good balance between performance and look of the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I followed that guide, but did not have the time to play around in game tonight, unfortunately.  Hopefully it will make at least a minimal improvement, and I’ll get on and check CPU/GPU usage in game tomorrow and report back.  Thanks for all the help, and the super useful links!

[Thinder]

52 minutes ago, Jakey-Poo said:

I followed that guide, but did not have the time to play around in game tonight, unfortunately.  Hopefully it will make at least a minimal improvement, and I’ll get on and check CPU/GPU usage in game tomorrow and report back.  Thanks for all the help, and the super useful links!

 

You're more than welcome. I'm still fine tuning my own system and just ran a mission; Mirage 2000 Caucasus Missile Combat: 2 X Mirage 2000 vs 2 X Mig-23 and 2 X Mig 29.

 

With a minimum of windows optimization (can  still improve on it), the right BIOS/Drivers and reasonably good VR settings, it ran very smooth, between 40 to 180+ FPS, I'll run further tests but there is something for sure, GPU memory usage was never below 8.0GB, so having 11.0GB was more than useful.

 

I used Ryzen Master auto-O.C and safe Afterburner O.Cs settings for my 1080Ti, GPU and CPU temperatures never were close to 70° C, so good colling is important, my hardware never was thermally limited despite O.C. https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/246922-upgrade-complete-happy-player/

 

For the story, I failed to save my wingman (basically a tourist commenting on target position and missile launches) but got 4 kills, 3 with AAMs, my last Magic missed so I had to engage the last Mig-29 with guns, hit it twice and finaly got the kill, but all that time I was in A.B, made it RTB bingo fuel, touch down with 140 Kg in each tank, shut down with 2 X 80 Kg...

 

The Mirage 2000 is in sold at $29.99, I'd recommand getting it for X-Mass, it is one of the best modules out there, very accurately simulated, AdlA uses it for Squadron Level support training.

 

I don't know where you are based but good 1080Ti 11GB (recommanded max VRAM) can be find second hand, I bought mine from CEX (UK) and it was basically new and guaranteed 2 years, I think it is the minimum for a mid-level experience in DCS, more complex scenarios or demanding maps will requier faster GPU/CPU/RAM.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Thinder

[henshao]

In the meantime, you can set your SSD pagefile to 16gb and see if that helps a bit.

[San]

On 12/20/2020 at 4:35 AM, Jakey-Poo said:

DISCLAIMER:  My wife built my computer (laugh it up, chuckles) and I am computer illiterate, so any delays in my responses are because my dumb ass will need to parse everything through her.

 

From what I can tell I may need more RAM (?), but I would like to pick your brains before investing into a solution that may be a dead end.

 

The problem:

Horrible FPS drops and stuttering on large/populated single player missions.  Down to like ~7 FPS at times.  Otherwise she runs OK.  I badly want to buy a the Channel map, but am worried it would be a waste if I can't get Normandy to even run smooth.

 

 

Thanks for any and all input.  It is very appreciated.  I can (probly) afford to resolve the issue because apparently my computer is decent, but I can't afford to blow money needlessly. 

 

 

Jakey-poo,

One thing thats worth checking is the speed setting your memory has been configured to.  "Out of the box" the memory config in a new ryzen computer can often be at a default value which is way under the speed your memory could run happily at.  Often its set at 2133Mhz which could seriously hurt performance in games.

 

Most Ryzen systems like to have memory at 3200MHz (or above)and this can often be very easily achieved by setting something called the XMP profile in the BIOS RAM settings.  Forgetting to enable the XMP settings is something even experienced system builders forget once in a while.

 

I think this is worth checking as your system is not miles away from mine (3700x/5700xt/32gb RAM @3600MHz) and while I'm struggling with VR, my non-VR performance is pretty good so I would think your system shouldn't struggle quite that much.  DCS does like RAM though so if you check and you are already running your 16GB RAM @ 3200MHz XMP or above, an increase to 32GB is something that will help dcs, especially in multiplayer servers.

 

HTH  

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by San
3200mhz or above rather than fixed value

[Beirut]

I think if you have SSAA and SSLR on you are going to beat the #### out of your FPS.

 

My rig is a bit higher spec than yours and I get good FPS, but having SSAA and SSLR on together is a killer, lowers the frame rate by 1/2 maybe. I think it's SSLR that does more damage, maybe someone who knows more can chirp in.

[Jakey-Poo]

On 12/20/2020 at 8:07 PM, Thinder said:

 

You're more than welcome. I'm still fine tuning my own system and just ran a mission; Mirage 2000 Caucasus Missile Combat: 2 X Mirage 2000 vs 2 X Mig-23 and 2 X Mig 29.

 

With a minimum of windows optimization (can  still improve on it), the right BIOS/Drivers and reasonably good VR settings, it ran very smooth, between 40 to 180+ FPS, I'll run further tests but there is something for sure, GPU memory usage was never below 8.0GB, so having 11.0GB was more than useful.

 

I used Ryzen Master auto-O.C and safe Afterburner O.Cs settings for my 1080Ti, GPU and CPU temperatures never were close to 70° C, so good colling is important, my hardware never was thermally limited despite O.C. https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/246922-upgrade-complete-happy-player/

 

For the story, I failed to save my wingman (basically a tourist commenting on target position and missile launches) but got 4 kills, 3 with AAMs, my last Magic missed so I had to engage the last Mig-29 with guns, hit it twice and finaly got the kill, but all that time I was in A.B, made it RTB bingo fuel, touch down with 140 Kg in each tank, shut down with 2 X 80 Kg...

 

The Mirage 2000 is in sold at $29.99, I'd recommand getting it for X-Mass, it is one of the best modules out there, very accurately simulated, AdlA uses it for Squadron Level support training.

 

I don't know where you are based but good 1080Ti 11GB (recommanded max VRAM) can be find second hand, I bought mine from CEX (UK) and it was basically new and guaranteed 2 years, I think it is the minimum for a mid-level experience in DCS, more complex scenarios or demanding maps will requier faster GPU/CPU/RAM.

 

 

Thank you sir, and sorry for the delay  - my wife got me the PS5 I've been lusting after, so I have been living my life as a samurai for the past few days.  The tutorial you sent across for "streamlining" my PC for gaming has helped quite a bit, but it is still getting laggy close to the ground and somewhat in large formations, especially while firing guns or introducing some other type of load to the CPU.  After running diagnostics, along with all the other troubleshooting that you've helped me with, I've pretty well dialed it down to my computer needing more RAM.  I'm definitely gonna check the M2000 out during the free trial!  I have the F-16 as my only jet at the moment, as I'm mainly a WWII/warbirds guy but have always had a crush on the viper.  I have a feeling I will probably end up getting the F-86/Mig15 however, as however sexy a delta wing may be...  purpose built dogfighters, man...  haha. 

[Aluminum Donkey]

On 12/19/2020 at 11:35 PM, Jakey-Poo said:

Compy stats:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600X 6-core
Motherboard: B450 Gaming Plus Max (MS-7B86)
Ram: 16 GB
SSD
GPU: AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT
OS: Windows 10

 

 

 

Your computer specs look pretty good!

 

 

You forgot to tell us about your monitor, though. Does it have Freesync? It allows your monitor's refresh rate (screen update rate) to exactly match your graphics card's render rate (FPS). That way, the monitor refreshes its image on-screen with every frame produced by the GPU, instead of the two being independent. It eliminates a huge amount of stuttering and give much more fluid motion. Make sure it's enabled!

 

Don't confuse Freesync with VSync. They're two entirely different features, and both should be enabled together for best results. VSync just prevents your GPU from producing more FPS than your monitor can display--Freesync (adaptive refresh) makes sure that your monitor updates the image exactly when your GPU tells it to--with each new frame produced.

 

We also need to know the resolution of your monitor to recommend any settings.

You'll do well to add a "signature" to your profile that describes every detail of your system, so that way we can always help you out without having to bog you down with questions

 

Oh yeah--16 GB RAM is pretty good for most stuff. Since you have an 8 GB graphics card, you might want to go up to 32 GB of RAM in the future. Make sure it's fast memory, because the AMD Ryzen processors perform better with it. So, well over 3000 MHz memory is good.

 

Finally, I find I get more consistent performance when disabling the Shader Cache in the graphics driver (control panel.) It takes longer to load missions, but once they're running, there's less stuttering when flying around.

 

Peace and happy warfare!

AD

[Thinder]

6 hours ago, Jakey-Poo said:

Thank you sir, and sorry for the delay  - my wife got me the PS5 I've been lusting after, so I have been living my life as a samurai for the past few days.  The tutorial you sent across for "streamlining" my PC for gaming has helped quite a bit, but it is still getting laggy close to the ground and somewhat in large formations, especially while firing guns or introducing some other type of load to the CPU.  After running diagnostics, along with all the other troubleshooting that you've helped me with, I've pretty well dialed it down to my computer needing more RAM.  I'm definitely gonna check the M2000 out during the free trial!  I have the F-16 as my only jet at the moment, as I'm mainly a WWII/warbirds guy but have always had a crush on the viper.  I have a feeling I will probably end up getting the F-86/Mig15 however, as however sexy a delta wing may be...  purpose built dogfighters, man...  haha. 

 

Well, lag is to be expected for those like us who doesn't have strong GPUs and play DCS, it's normal, we don't have the luxury of quality + FPS, perhaps the future game engine is going to help a bit but for the time being it's what we got, so compromise is a must.

 

The good thing about this kind of hardship is that it get us to learn about how to optimize our systems, something top gears doesn't necessary push people to do because they have a lot less issues to get both a good FPS and a good picture from stock.

 

I was mentioning the Mirage 2000C because of the promotion, but it is by no mean in concurence with the F-16 and F-18, for that we would need the -5 or Mk2 variants because as it is now, it just is equivalent to an early F-16/18 model with limited BVR capabilities and you'll struggle against the Vipers and Hornets.

 

On the other hand it remains one of the best simulated modules in DCS (reason for the French Air Force to use them for complement training at Squadron level) and  is a demanding aircraft to fly well, so it teaches you a lot about flying and fighting before getting into something more capable. L’Armée de l’Air Française s’équipe de DSC World – Mirage 2000

https://stormbirds.blog/2018/05/04/razbam-details-unprecedented-with-armee-de-lair/

 

F-86/Mig-15 seems like a good idea, personally, coming from Jane's simulation games and Strike fighters II, I've always been a great fan of the F-8 Crusader and the Vietnam era.

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Thinder