Rudder Pedal Opinions

[Cerulean]

I am about to order a better set of rudder pedals and was wondering what your opinions are.  I am debating between the Thrustmaster TPR, the VKB T-Rudder Mk IV and the Virpil ACE-Flight.  If you like the VKB, what do you think of the virtual toe brakes?  How does that work?

[Cigar Bear]

I am not familiar with your other choices but the Thrustmaster TPR set has served me well so far. 

 

History:

 

I went through many other sets prior and could never seem to get the same level of control I got with the TPR.  Started with Ch Products rudder pedals - which worked well but aged out on me (after 10 years... so what do you expect...)  I replaced them with the cheaper TM set, which worked... but I was never able to get good fine control out of them...  I finally found the TM TPR used on eBay and have been exceptionally pleased ever since. 

 

Happy hunting...

 

CB

[Woody01]

+1 for the TPR's, the fine control for warbirds and choppas is just amazing! Until I got them I had no idea it could be this good. Excellent product.

[VpR81]

I have the Thrustmaster TPRs, but wouldn't buy them again. Was pretty happy with them in the beginning, but now after 2 years not so much anymore. They didn't fail but i think precision could be better. They're good pedals overall and the pendular systems feels nice (although too soft), but they're way overpriced. They're not worth ~500€ IMO, more like 300-350 like the Virpil ACE rudders. If you're willing to spend as much for pedals as the TPRs cost, better put a few bucks on top and get the Slaw Viper RX -> way better built quality, higher precision, but only marginal higher price. Those will definately be my next pedals. The Virpil ACE rudders are propably very good as well for a fair price. My brother is a rotor head and has the VKB T-Rudders MK IV and he's very happy with them. Don't ask me 'bout the virtual toe brakes though, i have no idea how it works. But built quality is outstanding, that's what i can say. I'm missing the MFG Crosswinds in your list, those have a great reputation as well and are in the same price range as the Virpil ACE rudders, i think even a bit cheaper. Take a look at Aurelius' thread, he provides very competent information about various rudder pedals on the market:
 

Good luck and choose wise

 

Cheers

Edited December 20, 2020 by VpR81

[dburne]

I know you did not ask about them but I absolutely love my Crosswind Pedals.

Been running them since Dec 2015 with no issue at all.

 

They are feet on pedals though, and need a way to keep them fixed in position on floor.

 

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

For modern jets and /or helis, VKB are a great value for money (220e).

Tpr are overpriced. Quite. 

[trace]

 Thrustmaster TPR are sometimes breaking as others reporting at the ballpoint thread connection near the Pedal.

[Weegie]

I can't comment on the others, but have an early set of the VKB rudders. They are very very good, but are also very different.

 

The action is down/Up not back/forward, more like a helicopter's pedals. This works well if you sit higher up at a desk but wouldn't be so good if you seating position is low.

 

Their accuracy is very good and they are alll metal construction and IMHO very well made. However they take a little getting used to.

 

As far as the brake function, you can combine them with a button/axis on your stick so they activate the brakes similar to the setup used in the Russian jet and the Spitfire. Its been a while since I've looked at the VKB software on how to do this. As I recall the stick input determines the braking force applied and the pedal movement the differential between left and right brake that's applied.

 

@Sokol1_br is probably the best guy on here to give you the rundown on how to set up the lever on the yoke to get them to apply brakes

[golani79]

On 12/20/2020 at 10:28 PM, dburne said:

I know you did not ask about them but I absolutely love my Crosswind Pedals.

Been running them since Dec 2015 with no issue at all.

 

They are feet on pedals though, and need a way to keep them fixed in position on floor.

 

 

Although not asked for, here is one more vote for the MFG - just amazing pedals!

[Habu_69]

 

1 hour ago, golani79 said:

 

Although not asked for, here is one more vote for the MFG - just amazing pedals!

+1. Crosswinds are amazing, but pricey.

[Cerulean]

Thanks for all the opinions. I live in Canada, which has a terrible exchange rate.  I love Virpil and Crosswind, but at 150% exchange on the Euro, plus shipping, plus sales tax and import fees, they would end up costing as much as the TM TPR.  The VKB Mk IV looks very interesting, and I've heard a lot about its durability and accuracy, but to pull it off I'd have to get a Gladiator or Virpil stick for the brake axis, and I am very fond of my Warthog stick which works so well with the A10C.  In the end, I decided to go with the TM TPR as I was able to catch it on a sale which, when combined with the quirks of exchange rates on that day, made it end up costing no more than the Virpil and Crosswind pedals.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Cerulean

[RackMonkey]

The TM TPR are the only ones that are anywhere close to real. The first thing you learn in flight school is to keep your feet on the floor, only put your feet "up" on the pedals when you actually want to brake. Everything on the market has you putting your whole foot on the pedal just to move it. This is just wrong. Put you heel on the floor and use your ankle to move the rudders. Moving your whole leg to actuate the rudders is just to coarse of a movement for fine rudder control, but it's what you have to do with these poorly designed pedals. I don't think a real pilot was even asked during the design phase or they were ignored because it would cut into profits to do it correctly.

I've flown aircraft from Piper Cub's to DC-10's and none of them have rudder pedals like the ones these people are selling. The TPR is as close as I've seen but I'm not spending $1K just to be disappointed again.  

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

45 minutes ago, RackMonkey said:

The TM TPR are the only ones that are anywhere close to real. The first thing you learn in flight school is to keep your feet on the floor, only put your feet "up" on the pedals when you actually want to brake. Everything on the market has you putting your whole foot on the pedal just to move it. This is just wrong. Put you heel on the floor and use your ankle to move the rudders. Moving your whole leg to actuate the rudders is just to coarse of a movement for fine rudder control, but it's what you have to do with these poorly designed pedals. I don't think a real pilot was even asked during the design phase or they were ignored because it would cut into profits to do it correctly.

I've flown aircraft from Piper Cub's to DC-10's and none of them have rudder pedals like the ones these people are selling. The TPR is as close as I've seen but I'm not spending $1K just to be disappointed again.  

you sure they are the only ones??

[RackMonkey]

3 hours ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

you sure they are the only ones??

Don't take the statement so literally. We both know there are probably quite a few that we will never be aware of. Let's just say it's true for the units that I have found while looking for a more realistic set of rudders for my pit.

[unlikely_spider]

4 hours ago, RackMonkey said:

The TM TPR are the only ones that are anywhere close to real. The first thing you learn in flight school is to keep your feet on the floor, only put your feet "up" on the pedals when you actually want to brake. Everything on the market has you putting your whole foot on the pedal just to move it. This is just wrong. Put you heel on the floor and use your ankle to move the rudders. Moving your whole leg to actuate the rudders is just to coarse of a movement for fine rudder control, but it's what you have to do with these poorly designed pedals. I don't think a real pilot was even asked during the design phase or they were ignored because it would cut into profits to do it correctly.

I've flown aircraft from Piper Cub's to DC-10's and none of them have rudder pedals like the ones these people are selling. The TPR is as close as I've seen but I'm not spending $1K just to be disappointed again.  

Aren't the MFG Crosswinds modeled after BF 109 and/or FW 190 pedals? The images I see of those in the real cockpits seem like they accommodate the entire foot.

[RackMonkey]

26 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

Aren't the MFG Crosswinds modeled after BF 109 and/or FW 190 pedals? The images I see of those in the real cockpits seem like they accommodate the entire foot.

Looking at some pictures of the 109, your right but look at where the brake pivot point is. It's near the bottom of the pedal...just about where the ball of your foot would rest with your heels on the floor. Look at pic's of the KC-10, it's the same way. You can make a more precise rudder input if you pivot your foot at the ankle rather than moving your whole leg. This becomes real world when our trying a cross wind landing and you can't dip you wing very far like on the 737. Airlines don't like it when you scrape the bottom of their eng cowlings.

But remember, your example is that of a high powered short coupled aircraft without hydraulics' to help

Edited January 4, 2021 by RackMonkey

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

2 hours ago, RackMonkey said:

Don't take the statement so literally. We both know there are probably quite a few that we will never be aware of. Let's just say it's true for the units that I have found while looking for a more realistic set of rudders for my pit.

VKB sir, VKB
1:10 you can see them in action

https://youtu.be/2Frob2qyFrQ

[RackMonkey]

1 hour ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

VKB sir, VKB
1:10 you can see them in action

https://youtu.be/2Frob2qyFrQ

That is one of the better one's that I looked at. No brakes though and since I'm working on a sim and not a game I would like the brakes where my muscle memory says they should be. 15K+ of flying hours is hard to brake habit and training. I'm still trying to move my head instead of just my eyes when doing my instrument scans using Track IR. Maybe the net version of the VKB will be the right design, they've got a good start now. Just a few mods and it would be perfect

[Sokol1_br]

 

13 hours ago, RackMonkey said:

The TM TPR are the only ones that are anywhere close to real.

 

Well, MFG Crosswind is close to real too, because is inspired in BF 109 pedals mechanism, requiring foots over the pedal pad:

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/10639/bk6.stbd.pedal.jpg

 

Quote

 I don't think a real pilot was even asked during the design phase or they were ignored because it would cut into profits to do it correctly.

 

Real private plane and sailplane pilots opine in MFG Crosswind development back in ~2010/11.

 

Not that their (MFG) mechanism are "the best", just to point that they are no Alien in real planes.  

 

Now VKB T-Rudder mechanism is very  "Alien" but they are very conformable and precise to use, just need move tip of feet's.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sokol1_br

[hegykc]

MFG owner is a real pilot. But here is our problem:

 

Real pilots are positioned to control the pedals with horizontal push, while office chair simmers are controlling their pedals with vertical swings, much less precise. Regardless of pedal type. You can put TM TPRs close underneath your chair, and you will get terrible precission. Or you can put your MFG further forward with increased angle and have great precission.

 

 

Now granted, parallelogram style pedals like MFG make the problem worse by not allowing you to use 'heel on the floor' control. I made myself combat style pedals for MFG which lowers the pedals by few inches and allow me to slide my heels on the floor, and that greatly increases my precision :

 

 

So it's not really about rudder style, Pendulum Vs. Parallelogram. You can have either one, as long as your foot rest angle can be more vertical than horizontal, you will have more precision. Heel on the floor also helps.

Edited January 5, 2021 by hegykc

[RackMonkey]

1 hour ago, hegykc said:

MFG owner is a real pilot. But here is our problem:

 

Real pilots are positioned to control the pedals with horizontal push, while office chair simmers are controlling their pedals with vertical swings, much less precise. Regardless of pedal type. You can put TM TPRs close underneath your chair, and you will get terrible precission. Or you can put your MFG further forward with increased angle and have great precission.

 

 

Now granted, parallelogram style pedals like MFG make the problem worse by not allowing you to use 'heel on the floor' control. I made myself combat style pedals for MFG which lowers the pedals by few inches and allow me to slide my heels on the floor, and that greatly increases my precision :

 

 

So it's not really about rudder style, Pendulum Vs. Parallelogram. You can have either one, as long as your foot rest angle can be more vertical than horizontal, you will have more precision. Heel on the floor also helps.

 

Your right. I forgot to take into account that my seat is custom built for my pit and desk chairs will always be higher and more "upright" than just about any seat in a cockpit.

 

I think I might buy a broken set of pedals and see if I can create a custom set or just get a USB controller card and just start from scratch. I use an extension on my Virpil stick and trying to control the Huey while my legs are stuck together controlling the yaw with my CH pedals in not conducive to smooth flight. At the very least I need to get the pedals separated a bit.

[scoobie]

Best thing is that nowadays there's so much choice!
I'd say that if someone wants to stick to fixed-wing aircraft only, then it doesn't matter that much if you get "steer with whole legs" or "heels on the floor" pedals. It may matter a bit, e.g. in warbirds without rudder trim, but other than that I'd just go for the pedals "overall best" in whatever departments you personally care about.
However, if you're in for both stuck-wing and rotor-wing then I'd dare to say you shoudn't even consider "steer with whole legs exclusively" pedals. Narrow the selection for pedals that at least give you a comfortable option for "heels on the floor", then judge quality/price etc., as normally.

I switched from my old CH Pro Pedals to TPR last year and boy... it DOES make hell of a difference. Steering Huey with whole legs was just so clumsy, trial and error forever.
In fact, TPR seem to be the most precise bit of kit I currently have, better than TM Warthog joystick, or at least it feels like it. (Joystick w/o extension, mind you!).

I can't comment on the durability of TPR, though. Mine still work, but they're 1 year old only. Time will tell. And obviously they ARE expensive (bought mine for approx. $500), nice/big/heavy, but expensive.

 

Oh, and except for the lack of toe brakes there's one more difference I noticed between TPR and VKB T RUDDER (just watched the video - nice pedals!). The latter seem to only give you "heel on the floor" option. TPR's travel seems a bit bigger and is "more horizontal" and I use them basically in 3 "foot configurations":
1. Heels on the floor. Full precision, love my chopper, probably also good for neurosurgery
2. Heels lifted a bit off the floor, but pedals still "grabbed" by toes and pushed with whole legs. This is when you need more travel and don't need to brake. Don't worry, I'm not a chimp, it works just fine - you simply push pedals with that space between the toes and that "pillow" on your foot's sole. The pedal "wants" to stick to it, you don't need to be a circus artist to do it.
3. Feet on the pedals - if wheel braking is required. This is for taxiing until you take off and on short final until you park. Of course you can keep the feet on the pedals all day long if you want, but I don't, it just feels nicer with heels rested on firm floor.

 

Last note: TPR have those ridiculous rubber feet that are just glued to the bottom plate. What a slap on the cheek from TM in such expensive gear, thanks a lot! You may easily "smear away" those feet from under that bottom plate. I did tha within a few days, just by normally operating the pedals. I'm sure there are better solutions to the problem, but I just stole a pencil from my kid, cut it, and pressed pencil pieces against holes in the bottom plate. The feet have such holes, too, so you align it and the pencil prevents feet from "smearing away" while the glue prevents them from just falling off. Couldn't they afford proper feet, screwed into the plate? Two bucks more in price perhaps? Jeez...

 

[Mars Exulte]

I use Slaw's Viper RX pedals. They're the best I am in a low, flight seat style chair, and the pedals are mounted to a platform about 4-5'' off the ground, so I have a situation more similar to Hegyc's fighter pilot example.

[zcaa0g]

I like the MFGs the best because they have the most adjustability in a lot of different ways of the pedal offerings out there.  There isn't a best out there though because it's just an opinion and depends in what one is looking for in terms of design and function.

[Aviators]

+1 for Viper

https://slawdevice.com/en/glowna/3-rx-viper-v2-rudder-pedals-dark-metallic.html