F-86F Sabre opinions - yay or nay?

[ezqulgene95]

With all this attention on classic jets and the soon to be released Mig 19P I can't help but still admire probably the best looking jet of all time - F-86F Sabre. But how does this module stack up? It doesn't have much of a pres showboxence in DCS and I know it (the module) is quite old, does it look dated? Is it half finished/missing parts? Is there much content or opportunities to fly it in MP? What are you opinions on this beauty? usps tracking

Edited December 23, 2020 by ezqulgene95

[joker68]

6 hours ago, ezqulgene95 said:

Is there much content or opportunities to fly it in MP? 

It's a good module, well finished (but has some details, like loosing gauge's color when lights are lit at night - nothing that will hamper your experience). I like it a lot, but unfortunately I managed to fly it on MP only once. Maybe the time I fly, but historic servers are kinda rare nowadays - it's like on race sims, everyone wants GT3ish; on flight sims everyone wants F18ish - or I'm seriously missing something. All being said, I think it's worth it. 

[dfpoor]

21 hours ago, ezqulgene95 said:

What are you opinions on this beauty?

If you are a fan of the jet go for it.  It's only $25.  Are you going to wait til it drops to $12.50?

Bought it yesterday.  Not difficult to fly, but hard to shoot bandits.  The artwork is exceptional.  The models are gorgeous and the pilots look real.

 

[Miles Vorkosigan]

It's a great module, you will like it.

 

10-12 of us fly Korean War era co-op missions every Sunday. Lot of fun to fly with a good group of friends. 

 

There are two Korean War servers, Korea 1952 (PvP) and The Korean War (PvE). It is a very friendly community 

[Schmidtfire]

It’s very nice and fun to fly! Some minor issues with the accuracy of guns/radar sight, but nothing major. 

 

They have not included any nukes to use with the LABS system, so if you expect to go full ”Dr. Strangelove”, you have to make do with iron bombs.

[HotTom]

Great module! My only complaint is not with the F-86 but with the AI Mig-15. Even on rookie setting, the MiG is entirely too good. Needs to be nerfed. But that just makes thjings more challenging (frustrating). Buy it! You won't be sorry.

[Charly_Owl]

It's a great module and provides something quite unique; with the MiG-15, it's one of the few jet aircraft that are pure WVR dogfighters. When flown online in the Korea! 1952 server, you really have to work for each victory. There's a big difference between WWII dogfights at speeds like 300 mph and dogfights with swept-wing jets at 450+ kts. I often get genuinely scared when performing scissors at these speeds since you're practically on the verge of blacking out.

 

I highly recommend it; it's a great jet that'll teach you a lot.

[Buzzles]

Concur with the others, it's a good module, definitely worth getting at sale prices. It's a lot of fun.

 

I just wish ED would schedule some time to fix the last few issues, namely the bullet speed (to solve the sight issues), and the transonic lockup issues. Oh, and the rbg 0,0,0 black knobs in the cockpit.

[Miles Vorkosigan]

Don't forget the sound bug. 

 

But to be honest this is one of the best modules in DCS. It is a joy to fly, fun to fight in and a great plane for flying with friends.

[cw4ogden]

The only issue with the F-86 module is sometimes the sound cuts out.  I haven't flown it in a while, but it still happened last time I flew it.

[LeCuvier]

I have tried to dogfight vs the MiG-15 AI, and I'm not happy. It seems that the Mig turns better and of course the AI has some tricks up its sleeves. The only tactic that works is to run away before I have lost speed, and that's not much fun. In the warbirds I make sure I get altitude that I can convert to speed. But the Sabre tends to do strange roll movements when speed goes above 400 knots and gets hard to control. I have rarely managed to sneak up behind the MiG, but that's very rare as the AI sees me whatever I do.

In other words, I suck. What advice can successful pilots give me?

[LeCuvier]

I watched a YT video MiG-15 vs F-86F and learned there that the Sabre turns better than the MiG at low altitude. So I tried again, with the MiG's skill level set to "trained". This time I used the rudder more extensively to facilitate the turn. And in fact, I found that I could out-turn the MiG-15, get behind and after a lot of turning finish the job. Second time, it took a lot less turning. Both times though I was close to blackout during the initial turns. It seems that I suck a bit less now and it's beginning to be fun. Nice module after all!

AI MiG-15 set to "Veteran": I cannot defeat it in a turning fight, and I get dangerously close to the deck. The MiG then turns away to prepare a new attack. I cannot accelerate enough to put my self in a good position, so I get off in the opposite direction and run. I can usually escape and when I get close to Mach 1 he cannot keep up and he finally gives up and turns away. I then try to sneak up from behind, and that's my only chance to destroy the MiG.

Edited February 8, 2021 by LeCuvier

[LeCuvier]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:21 PM, cw4ogden said:

The only issue with the F-86 module is sometimes the sound cuts out.  I haven't flown it in a while, but it still happened last time I flew it.

I have experienced this a few days ago and I thought it was a problem in my equipment. If it happens again I will save a track and report the bug.

[flameoutme]

The F-86 is easy to learn and fun to fly. I don't fly it because it's the best/fastest/most lethal in the sky. I fly it because it isn't.  But it's a solid piece of aircraft, as the 9000 units produced will attest. A real champion for its time.

 

And it's a looker.

 

I own the majority of the modules. My other favs are the F-14B and M-2000c. But the one I enjoy the most is the F-86.

Edited February 4, 2021 by flameoutme

[Fangs Out]

I fly it due to its ease of flight andd manual bombing. its a fun jet, just needs its  younger brother, the F-100

[thrustvector]

yep go for it. quite fun and a real stable bird to fly with great looks, doing one of the campaigns atm and is a great way to learn her, start-up is simple as, and the few switches you need for that and weps are very simple to learn

[JokerMan]

To the OP,  the Sabre (being a favourite of yours already) is indeed a wonderful module to fly in DCS, simply just to take up for a patrol even.

The F86f is that bridge between the older WW2 modules and the newer jets, such as the F5  that followed. It's respresentative of it's era and in truth, if you've flown the WW2 warbirds, there is a real sense of skill transfer here. With all steam gauge panels and hardware switches, there's a real nostalgia in the cockpit which more and more appreciate. With it's traditional foe, the Mig-15 also available, the only thing not provided is your "seat time" to ensure a full understanding of what the operational envelope of the aircraft is, how to remain inside it, and how to take full measure if it's strengths and avoid it's weaknesses when matched against the Mig-15. It's a hands on stick fighter that calls for a real gentle mastery and it rewards with a real sense of achievement when flown well.

 

Notes about the two issues already mentions above :- 

1) sound bug -  is specific to the F86f Sabre module, suffered commonly across the community and not present in any other module in the DCS portfolio. It is being looked into, most recently in October 2020 by BigNewy   [Reported] Aircraft sound stops

 

 

 

 

2) 50.cal drop  - is still being investigated and the community has proposed a solution which is still being reviewed. It is being looked into, most recently in October 2020 by NineLine [Checking] Super slow .50 caliber rounds

 

So, bearing this in mind, and as to whether the Sabre isa worthwhile modules ... I will only say that I absolutely enjoy my experiences flying it.

 

S!

Edited June 18, 2021 by JokerMan
typos

[Ravenus]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:24 PM, LeCuvier said:

I watched a YT video MiG-15 vs F-86F and learned there that the Sabre turns better than the MiG at low altitude. So I tried again, with the MiG's skill level set to "trained". This time I used the rudder more extensively to facilitate the turn. And in fact, I found that I could out-turn the MiG-15, get behind and after a lot of turning finish the job. Second time, it took a lot less turning. Both times though I was close to blackout during the initial turns. It seems that I suck a bit less now and it's beginning to be fun. Nice module after all!

AI MiG-15 set to "Veteran": I cannot defeat it in a turning fight, and I get dangerously close to the deck. The MiG then turns away to prepare a new attack. I cannot accelerate enough to put my self in a good position, so I get off in the opposite direction and run. I can usually escape and when I get close to Mach 1 he cannot keep up and he finally gives up and turns away. I then try to sneak up from behind, and that's my only chance to destroy the MiG.

 

Hello LeCuvier,

 

While there are videos and sources stating that the F86s  turns better at Low altitude, are you sure which variant they are talking about? The wing with slats or the 6-3 wing? The sabre has better instantaneous turns at medium to low speed but cannot sustain it on the 6-3 wing(which is the one we have in game). The 6-3 gave less drag to the airfram and higher acceleration and top speed compared with the previous sabres.  The mig 15 bis  is a better sustained turn fighter at all altitudes. On top of it, you are fighting a AI, which has a simplified FM and perfect energy management.

[LeCuvier]

2 hours ago, Ravenus said:

Hello LeCuvier,

 

While there are videos and sources stating that the F86s  turns better at Low altitude, are you sure which variant they are talking about? The wing with slats or the 6-3 wing? The sabre has better instantaneous turns at medium to low speed but cannot sustain it on the 6-3 wing(which is the one we have in game). The 6-3 gave less drag to the airfram and higher acceleration and top speed compared with the previous sabres.  The mig 15 bis  is a better sustained turn fighter at all altitudes. On top of it, you are fighting a AI, which has a simplified FM and perfect energy management.

I have just finished reading a book about the F-86 experience during the Korea war. They started with earlier versions and eventually converted to the "F". They say that the MiG-15 had better acceleration and climb, while the Sabre was a better turn fighter. While the US pilots generally consider the earlier Sabres inferior to the MiG, they tend to agree that the "F" was at a par.

There is also ample evidence that the MiG was prone to get into an unrecoverable spin if they turned too tightly. The American pilots got a fair number of credits that way. This kind of accident obviously never happens to the AI.

A little bit out of context:
I suspect that the MiG-15 (AI version) in DCS World is a bit of a "Wunderwaffe". I set up sparring missions flying various fighters against the MiG-15 (AI). I tried with Bf-109, F-86F, F5E, F-16 and F/A-18C. All of these without using missiles since the MiG-15 doesn't carry any.

With the Bf-109 I could get behind the MiG-15, but never close enough for a good shot. In comparison, I regular defeat the MiG-21 (Ace, carrying missiles!) quite regularly. Of course the MiG-21 AI pilot is not using his fighter well.

With the Sabre I can defeat the MiG-15 AI at "Trained" level but generally not at "Veteran" (except if can sneak up from behind).

With the F-5 I have no chance in a turning fight. I can only avoid being shot down by using my superior max. speed.

With the F-16 I get nowhere in a turning fight and the Mig even outperforms me in the vertical, although the Viper has a much better Thrust/Weight ratio. This seems odd.

With the F/A-18C I can clearly dominate the Mig-15 in a dogfight (probably due to an oustanding FCS?) and due to the incredibly good gun sight shoot him down  with a single burst.

 

[Katj]

I have just finished reading a book about the F-86 experience during the Korea war. They started with earlier versions and eventually converted to the "F". They say that the MiG-15 had better acceleration and climb, while the Sabre was a better turn fighter. While the US pilots generally consider the earlier Sabres inferior to the MiG, they tend to agree that the "F" was at a par.
There is also ample evidence that the MiG was prone to get into an unrecoverable spin if they turned too tightly. The American pilots got a fair number of credits that way. This kind of accident obviously never happens to the AI.
A little bit out of context:
I suspect that the MiG-15 (AI version) in DCS World is a bit of a "Wunderwaffe". I set up sparring missions flying various fighters against the MiG-15 (AI). I tried with Bf-109, F-86F, F5E, F-16 and F/A-18C. All of these without using missiles since the MiG-15 doesn't carry any.
With the Bf-109 I could get behind the MiG-15, but never close enough for a good shot. In comparison, I regular defeat the MiG-21 (Ace, carrying missiles!) quite regularly. Of course the MiG-21 AI pilot is not using his fighter well.
With the Sabre I can defeat the MiG-15 AI at "Trained" level but generally not at "Veteran" (except if can sneak up from behind).
With the F-5 I have no chance in a turning fight. I can only avoid being shot down by using my superior max. speed.
With the F-16 I get nowhere in a turning fight and the Mig even outperforms me in the vertical, although the Viper has a much better Thrust/Weight ratio. This seems odd.
With the F/A-18C I can clearly dominate the Mig-15 in a dogfight (probably due to an oustanding FCS?) and due to the incredibly good gun sight shoot him down  with a single burst.
 

As you've discovered the MiG-15 AI flightmodel is atrocious, pay it no heed.

The human controlled MiG-15 is very believable flight model wise.

[Tiger-II]

YAY.

 

In fact, I've just come back from a 2.5 hour jolly around Persian Gulf just chilling out with a friend and flying around.

[Ravenus]

17 hours ago, LeCuvier said:

I have just finished reading a book about the F-86 experience during the Korea war. They started with earlier versions and eventually converted to the "F". They say that the MiG-15 had better acceleration and climb, while the Sabre was a better turn fighter. While the US pilots generally consider the earlier Sabres inferior to the MiG, they tend to agree that the "F" was at a par.

 

 

Exactly but the F was at par OVERALL, not turn performance. I too have read books that still say the turn performance of the sabre in a SUSTAINED manner is still inferiour to the mig. Sustained turn performance is determined by a mix of factors such as aircraft Thrust to weight ratio, wingloading and wing airfoil thickness.

 

Instantaneous, meaning max turn rate that happens in an instant(untill you bleed your speed) and usually at speeds lower than your best sustained turn rate speed, IS superior on the sabre. This is great for maneuvers like scissoring. Add that with superior rollrate and the sabre is unmatched here.

 

I have to agree with you on thing though, the spin on the mig at low speeds and high alpha isn´t violent and doesn´t happen nearly enough. It is the only thing i´d change for the mig, flight model wise. Otherwise it is great.

 

And yeah don´t fight AI, it´s wrong. If you want multiplayer action for the Korea jets, look no further :   https://discord.gg/KqpQSSC

 

 

[LeCuvier]

1 hour ago, Ravenus said:

And yeah don´t fight AI, it´s wrong. If you want multiplayer action for the Korea jets, look no further :   https://discord.gg/KqpQSSC

MP is not an option for me. Due to my limited eyesight I can only spot bandits with labels (not just a dot) enabled.

[Miles Vorkosigan]

LeCuvier the Korean War server uses a modified label lua that allows you to see a dot from a distance the color of the dot at medium distance and then no dot at all at close range. Give it a try. We use the same in our weekly co-op flights. 

You can set this up for single player as well.

[Tiger-II]

I wish they'd fix the visibility ranges of all the aircraft, but that horse has been beaten, shot, bombed, and sunk multiple times.