VR experience

[chaos]

If this belongs in the dedicated VR forum than feel free to move it. I just want to let other non-VR users know about my experience and I feel that the reach of this forum is better suited for that...

 

Right, so...

 

I own a potato-laptop by today’s standard. Mind you, it was crazy fast… 5 years ago. It’s an i7 6700 @ 3.4GHz coupled with 32GB and a desktop class GTX980 graphics card. It served me well for all those years. I play DCS exclusively. However, as is to be expected, it has gotten slower over the years and I’ve held off on upgrading for as long as I could. No more, for I have entered the realm of VR properly…

 

Some 4(?) years ago I managed to “sneak” into Microsoft’s flagship store by pretending to be a developer and thereby gaining access to their Hololens AR Headset. I also got to try Valve’s brand new VR headset at the time which was underwhelming to say the least. A pixelated mess with horrible screen-door effect. Clearly, VR wasn’t ready and because of that experience, I’ve held off on buying a headset for all these years. Despite the (mostly) glowing reviews on this forum regarding this or that headset, I could not be convinced to pull the trigger.

 

Fast forward 2020. My wife purchased the Quest 2 to counter the hours of boredom thanks to the virus (she’s a bit of a tech-head herself). Naturally I had to try it on my potato-laptop since it was sitting there anyway. Convinced that it would suck, I started DCS and was transported to the familiar hangar with Sue sitting in it. Holy CR*P! The sense of scale is terrific! I instantly felt the need to reach out and touch the leading edge of her beautiful wing. Ok, so far, so good. Surely it would suck once I started flying it…

 

Loading up a simple mission in the Caucassus (just me, myself and I) with my trusty A-10 under my butt. I sat there for what could’ve been 5 minutes staring at the cockpit gauges, displays and the view outside. This looks friggin’ amazing. The urge to pull those fire-handles and twist the knobs and dials is very strong. I’m sitting in the cockpit and it feels exactly like it did when I spent the better part of a day inside the Jaguar at RAF Cosford. The scale is correct. It feels cramped and the depth perception is just perfect.

 

I clicked “fly” and off I went. Flying a circuit feels like the real thing. I can visually estimate the correct distance from the runway and speed control is easy. Glancing at my HUD and back at the runway is quick and a lot more intuitive compared to TrackIR. I’m flying a circuit as I would do in real life.

Yes, performance is less than ideal but it is playable. I even managed to dogfight and score kills in the F-18.

 

For those sitting on the fence, waiting for the next gen VR headset to come out; wait no more. It was probably the best $400 I ever spent on any gaming peripheral. I would say it is on par with a HOTAS system which, in my view, has become a necessity these days. VR is not a necessity as such but it will blow your socks off.

[A2597]

I feel the sme way, can't fly without VR. 

Now that I have a good HOTAS, id say PointCTRL was the 3rd best purchase for DCS. It lets you actually reach out and use the controls in cockpit!

[GoodHope]

Could not agree more.  Depending on your hardware, VR may be a bit of a compromise, but I'm very happy with the performance I'm getting from my setup (mine is exactly like BigNewy's).  I only fly "flat-earth" when I'm trying to learn something new so that I can watch by youtube or whatever--that's the only reason I'm keeping my trackIR.  Otherwise, nothing compares to flying with VR--it has to be experienced.  No picture/video on a monitor can replicate it.  The last remaining piece is to get PointCTRL from Miles--I'm hoping to be in the cutoff for the next batch he releases.

Edited December 27, 2020 by GoodHope

[Guppy]

There are pros and cons to both. For me, having a simpt makes the move to VR less than ideal. The ability to quickly do things in the pit has been more fun. I've tried 3 or 4 headsets, at this point, and I have not been sold by any of them. The Reverb came close... Mind you - it is an absolutely fantastic experience and I love the feeling of being immersed in the cockpit. I just cannot get over how clunky the performance and graphics are though. In addition to the lack of hand controls. For me, it's more suitable for aircraft that do not require a lot of clicking in the pit -- it was pretty perfect for the F-15 as there is zero need to grab a mouse or click on anything. I had Mile's PointCTRL and while it was a step in the right direction, for the full fidelity aircraft, but there needs to be a better solution for hand controls.

 

If I didn't have my simpit I would probably do VR, but for now the pros of my setup outweigh VR.

[CommandT]

I'll add to this with my recent experience. I bought the new Reverb G2 and sold it 3 days later... 

100% VR is the future, and in principal it's amazing. In practice the problem is still DCS's poorly optimized old game engine. Now if you're not too bothered about having high res VR headsets then maybe there's more on the table for you. I tried various older VR headsets including the Rift S and I was not a big fan of the resolutions or screen door effect. So I waited and waited and eventually got the G2 - the G2 on it's native res of 2160 x 2160 is the absolute bare minimum that I would deem acceptable in terms of resolution in VR, and many consider it to be amazing... but clearly this is in comparison to older headsets and not in comparison to what we are used to on a 2D screen or just seeing real life with our eyes. I still wish it was better. And if you up-scale it in Steam VR and run it on twice that, although it's obviously unflyable, just to sit inside a pit and appreciate what it could theoretically look like is seriously mind blowing. This is not why I sold it though, as I still think the G2 is awesome and I would go back to it in a heart beat. 

Anyway, as I found out my rather beefy rig (by most people's standards) was nowhere near good enough to run the G2 at it's native res perfectly smoothly (crucial for me, especially for dogfighting) without having to turn basically every graphics setting to a bare minimum. So what I was left with was the amazing feeling of sitting in the plane with a terrible looking world and everything with jaggy edges, and I realised people really make massive compromises in terms of graphics for that feeling of being in VR. Of course those with a very high single core clock speed and a 3090 might be able to have a much better experience, but to think that my rig runs it like crap is a real kick in the balls (Ryzen 3950X, 64GB 3200MHz RAM, RTX 2080 Super). I'm planning on getting a 3080Ti when it comes out but even so I think until we see multi-core utilisation from this game engine, I will not be returning to VR, even though I sulk every day about it and going back to a 2D screen from VR really feels like taking 1 million steps back in the wrong direction, but I simply cannot live with all the details set to low or nothing and have those jagged edges on everything. I mean it was a struggle to run it well without MSAA, only god knows what a slide show it would have been with MSAA. 

Anyway, that's my 2p from a user that has had to go back and give up on VR dreams. Mostly because only one of my 16 cores is actually getting used in this sim

I will admit VR is freaking amazing, and especially ejecting out of a plane - that was my favourite part lol 

[Qiou87]

2 hours ago, Guppy said:

There are pros and cons to both. For me, having a simpt makes the move to VR less than ideal. The ability to quickly do things in the pit has been more fun. I've tried 3 or 4 headsets, at this point, and I have not been sold by any of them. The Reverb came close... Mind you - it is an absolutely fantastic experience and I love the feeling of being immersed in the cockpit. I just cannot get over how clunky the performance and graphics are though. In addition to the lack of hand controls. For me, it's more suitable for aircraft that do not require a lot of clicking in the pit -- it was pretty perfect for the F-15 as there is zero need to grab a mouse or click on anything. I had Mile's PointCTRL and while it was a step in the right direction, for the full fidelity aircraft, but there needs to be a better solution for hand controls.

 

If I didn't have my simpit I would probably do VR, but for now the pros of my setup outweigh VR.

You are comparing VR to having a full simpit, which is what maybe 0,5% of DCS players can compare it too. Some just have a T.16000M hotas, or not even that. Besides, a simpit works if you fly one plane. VR is amazing because it can let you sit "inside the cockpit" of any plane or helicopter at will. Helicopters in VR are typically amazing to fly. If you make a Hornet pit at home, assuming you have the space, you are dedicating yourself to that aircraft and flying anything else in your pit will probably be a little weird.

 

The mouse thing you get used to. Most things are on the HOTAS anyway, it is only really useful during startup. Hand controllers are supported but a pain to combine with a HOTAS. There is room for improvement in that area, for sure, but no dealbreaker as far as I am concerned.

 

Regarding performance and what CommandT says, although I wouldn't speak about the G2 in particular since mine hasn't arrived yet, I'd say my decent system allows for a smooth experience even in multiplayer (Rift S, 140% supersampling, Ryzen 5 2600X, 32GB, RTX2070 Super). I took some time to find the right parameters and settings but in the end I get a very enjoyable experience. Does it look better on my 1440p 32" monitor? Sure. Would I trade higher details in exchange for the sensation of flying my own jet? Nope. Once I tried VR for DCS, there was no turning back, and no amount of eye-candy can compensate for that. I do wish for better optimization and faster hardware, but in the meantime I am having the time of my life all the same. I do respect that other people might have diverging opinions on this, we don't share the same priorities necessarily.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Qiou87

[Mars Exulte]

Yeah, I'd say 2020 is when when it really started to build up steam and start working out the glitches. Prior to the current batch, it was more ''proof of concept'' than anything else, but they're actually getting pretty good now, devs are starting to work with them better, software's more stable, and a lot of jury rigging required, and the techno-incantations almost always yield the correct results.

[Guppy]

1 hour ago, Qiou87 said:

You are comparing VR to having a full simpit, which is what maybe 0,5% of DCS players can compare it too. Some just have a T.16000M hotas, or not even that. Besides, a simpit works if you fly one plane. VR is amazing because it can let you sit "inside the cockpit" of any plane or helicopter at will. Helicopters in VR are typically amazing to fly. If you make a Hornet pit at home, assuming you have the space, you are dedicating yourself to that aircraft and flying anything else in your pit will probably be a little weird.

 

The mouse thing you get used to. Most things are on the HOTAS anyway, it is only really useful during startup. Hand controllers are supported but a pain to combine with a HOTAS. There is room for improvement in that area, for sure, but no dealbreaker as far as I am concerned.

 

Regarding performance and what CommandT says, although I wouldn't speak about the G2 in particular since mine hasn't arrived yet, I'd say my decent system allows for a smooth experience even in multiplayer (Rift S, 140% supersampling, Ryzen 5 2600X, 32GB, RTX2070 Super). I took some time to find the right parameters and settings but in the end I get a very enjoyable experience. Does it look better on my 1440p 32" monitor? Sure. Would I trade higher details in exchange for the sensation of flying my own jet? Nope. Once I tried VR for DCS, there was no turning back, and no amount of eye-candy can compensate for that. I do wish for better optimization and faster hardware, but in the meantime I am having the time of my life all the same. I do respect that other people might have diverging opinions on this, we don't share the same priorities necessarily.

 

Right - this is why I said at the end of my post if I did not have a simpit I would go VR. Also, this is why I said there are pros and cons to both. My comments were not to say one was better than the other.

 

The mouse thing I could not get over, but probably because I have my pit. 

 

Like I said and you echoed... pros and cons. One is not better than the other unless in the eye of the beholder. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Guppy

[SharpeXB]

I doubt VR will ever perform well in complex simulation games like DCS. There are so many performance complaints from people with the best hardware money can buy that it completely dissuades me from ever trying it. 

[PhoenixRising]

id say PointCTRL was the 3rd best purchase for DCS. It lets you actually reach out and use the controls in cockpit!

I love my PointCtrl. An amazing upgrade to using mouse or touch controllers for switches.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

[chaos]

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I...There are so many performance complaints from people with the best hardware money can buy that it completely dissuades me from ever trying it. 

 

... that's how I looked at it. Unfortunately, you're missing out on the experience. If you really want to experience "flight", short of the real thing, then VR is the way to go. Until we get direct Computer-to-Brain interface, this is it. Yes, performance is an issue for some and using the standard controller is just a pain but we're getting there. PointCTRL is a step in the right direction and hardware-performance is just a matter of time.

 

Maybe someone in the neighborhood is willing to let you have a go...

 

I can only imagine what fun I'll have once DCS:Clouds becomes a thing

Edited December 28, 2020 by chaos

[Sr.]

8 hours ago, A2597 said:

I feel the sme way, can't fly without VR. 

Now that I have a good HOTAS, id say PointCTRL was the 3rd best purchase for DCS. It lets you actually reach out and use the controls in cockpit!

Same.

I can... but I simply won't. 

[PhoenixRising]

Same.

I can... but I simply won't. 

I actually only got back into flight simming because of VR. Once I started flying real aircraft, the flat screen felt awful and I stopped flying on a computer.) It was only when I got an Oculus Rift CV1, I stumbled upon DCS (I think my wallet wishes I never found DCS though.) I remember firing up the aircraft and having holy crap moment about how much better it was than a monitor, even on the CV1. I have since upgraded to a Rift S, and it is much better. Still not perfect, especially with a 1070. Shopping for a 3080, but that could be a while.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, chaos said:

 

... that's how I looked at it. Unfortunately, you're missing out on the experience. If you really want to experience "flight", short of the real thing, than VR is the way to go. Until we get direct Computer-to-Brain interface, this is it. Yes, performance is an issue for some and using the standard controller is just a pain but we're getting there. PointCTRL is a step in the right direction and hardware-performance is just a matter of time.

 

Maybe someone in the neighborhood is willing to let you have a go...

 

I can only imagine what fun I'll have once DCS:Clouds becomes a thing

I’ve used VR before at my work as an Architect. But I have an extremely low tolerance for stuff that doesn’t work and troubleshooting when it comes to gaming. VR seems to be nothing but endless frustration. 

[Sr.]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve used VR before at my work as an Architect. But I have an extremely low tolerance for stuff that doesn’t work and troubleshooting when it comes to gaming. VR seems to be nothing but endless frustration. 

VR DCS is like pizza.

 

When it's good... it really good.

When it's bad...

 

It's still pretty good. 

[Mars Exulte]

1 hour ago, Sr. said:

VR DCS is like pizza.

 

When it's good... it really good.

When it's bad...

 

It's still pretty good. 

 

Lol pretty spot on.

 

Sharpe, I think it's what you make of it.

 

Some people are prone to complaining, some less so. It also depends what you're expecting. If you expect 60+fps on high settings on a crowded, intensive online server, you will be very frustrated.

 

When I got the Rift S, I had a functioning simpit. The Rift was $300 at the time and I intended to return it after ''a week or two''. No kidding, I didn't want to spend the money on it, and just wanted to ''see how it was''.

 

I never returned the Rift and have ceased using my simpit (which was technically only a few months old at the time). It ain't as pretty as my 35'' ultrawide, but it's an experience.

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, zhukov032186 said:

If you expect 60+fps on high settings on a crowded, intensive online server, you will be very frustrated.

And that why I’ll just stay away from VR. The primary goal I expect with any system or display is a max frame rate. That’s never going to be possible with a sim like DCS in VR

[aledmb]

VR is perfect for flight sims and racing sims.

 

there's no way back.

[DutchCoolHand]

Now imagine feeling your A10 too . Been flying in VR for 2 years and recently added the gamematrix jetseat. It is amazing. You can read about it under the input - output section of the forum

Edited December 28, 2020 by DutchCoolHand

[Taz1004]

3 hours ago, aledmb said:

VR is perfect for flight sims and racing sims.

 

there's no way back.

 

I will not buy flight sim or racing sim if it doesn't have VR.  I didn't buy F1 2020 because it didn't have VR and I just got MSFS 2020 because VR support just came out.  Plus couldn't resist 3 months for $1.

 

It's not just immersion thing.  Depth perception makes you faster in racing sim and better SA in flight sim.  I didn't realize that you remember location not just visually but also how much you move your head.

And I couldn't believe how easy all landing and AAR is now.  Long time ago with BlackShark 1, I remember practicing landing over and over.  I wasn't sure if I can do it when I came back to DCS.  But landed perfectly on first try with VR.

 

And I have outdated PC with i7-4790K and GTX 1080.  But running smooth with no stutter at 45fps on Syria.  Granted I did some optimizations.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Taz1004

[jwbflyer]

I run VR fine*, and with a $1700 rig (cheaper today):

 

i7-9700K

MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Edge AC ATX

RTX 2070 Super

32GB Ram

Oculus CV1

AKB Gladiator stick

TM T16000 Hotas throttle 

 

Fine* - Every now and then down low, I’ll bump into some low frame rates for which I mitigate by:

- no prolonged vector into the ground

- set vector and engage attitude hold (if it gets choppy, I’ll live through it)

I have been in numerous low level merges/dog fights. I would say less than 10% are affected by low frames/performance. 

I would best describe my experience as - good enough to enjoy VR, far from what it could be.

 

DCS/ED - PLEASE GET YOUR SYSTEM OPTIMIZED FOR VR!!!!!!! Hell, do a Go Fund Me...people will help you move from 1990 to where you should be.

Edited January 17, 2021 by jwbflyer
Spelling

[GunSlingerAUS]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:42 AM, CommandT said:

I'll add to this with my recent experience. I bought the new Reverb G2 and sold it 3 days later... 

100% VR is the future, and in principal it's amazing. In practice the problem is still DCS's poorly optimized old game engine. Now if you're not too bothered about having high res VR headsets then maybe there's more on the table for you. I tried various older VR headsets including the Rift S and I was not a big fan of the resolutions or screen door effect. So I waited and waited and eventually got the G2 - the G2 on it's native res of 2160 x 2160 is the absolute bare minimum that I would deem acceptable in terms of resolution in VR, and many consider it to be amazing... but clearly this is in comparison to older headsets and not in comparison to what we are used to on a 2D screen or just seeing real life with our eyes. I still wish it was better. And if you up-scale it in Steam VR and run it on twice that, although it's obviously unflyable, just to sit inside a pit and appreciate what it could theoretically look like is seriously mind blowing. This is not why I sold it though, as I still think the G2 is awesome and I would go back to it in a heart beat. 

Anyway, as I found out my rather beefy rig (by most people's standards) was nowhere near good enough to run the G2 at it's native res perfectly smoothly (crucial for me, especially for dogfighting) without having to turn basically every graphics setting to a bare minimum. So what I was left with was the amazing feeling of sitting in the plane with a terrible looking world and everything with jaggy edges, and I realised people really make massive compromises in terms of graphics for that feeling of being in VR. Of course those with a very high single core clock speed and a 3090 might be able to have a much better experience, but to think that my rig runs it like crap is a real kick in the balls (Ryzen 3950X, 64GB 3200MHz RAM, RTX 2080 Super). I'm planning on getting a 3080Ti when it comes out but even so I think until we see multi-core utilisation from this game engine, I will not be returning to VR, even though I sulk every day about it and going back to a 2D screen from VR really feels like taking 1 million steps back in the wrong direction, but I simply cannot live with all the details set to low or nothing and have those jagged edges on everything. I mean it was a struggle to run it well without MSAA, only god knows what a slide show it would have been with MSAA. 

Anyway, that's my 2p from a user that has had to go back and give up on VR dreams. Mostly because only one of my 16 cores is actually getting used in this sim

I will admit VR is freaking amazing, and especially ejecting out of a plane - that was my favourite part lol 

 

I 100% agree with you. I have the Reverb G2 and an RTX 3090, and find the performance issues too much for me to enjoy VR. I have no doubt that VR is the future of flight sims, but the future has yet to arrive. It's great that others enjoy it, but I think it's also wise to temper claims that it's "the only way to fly", "totally worth buying", etc. Too many people have wasted money as a result of these claims.

[GunSlingerAUS]

On 12/28/2020 at 11:58 AM, zhukov032186 said:

 

Some people are prone to complaining, some less so. It also depends what you're expecting. If you expect 60+fps on high settings on a crowded, intensive online server, you will be very frustrated.

 

 

No, just because I don't find the poor performance in VR makes me prone to complaining. It makes me prone to reprojection artefacts, which apparently DCS VR players are not. This is why there's a huge difference in one person's opinion of smooth performance compared to another's. I'm happy to wait until I can get a minimum of 60fps though, in the meantime my VR HMD is put to good use in Elite Dangerous, that other WW2 sim, Star Wars Squadrons, HL: Alyx and a bunch of other games that don't lean on a technology feature that is only meant to be used extremely infrequently (reprojection). 

Edited January 17, 2021 by GunSlingerAUS

[CommandT]

4 hours ago, GunSlingerAUS said:

 

I 100% agree with you. I have the Reverb G2 and an RTX 3090, and find the performance issues too much for me to enjoy VR. I have no doubt that VR is the future of flight sims, but the future has yet to arrive. It's great that others enjoy it, but I think it's also wise to temper claims that it's "the only way to fly", "totally worth buying", etc. Too many people have wasted money as a result of these claims.

I'm in exactly the same boat! After years of waiting for a VR headset that doesn't have a damn screen door effect and actually looks good when you look through the lenses, I pulled the trigger on the G2 - great headset (not the be all, end all for sure, but still super great for a great VR experience) and then realised just how massive a compromise one needs to make to run it even remotely well - so you end up with the feeling of being in the plane with everything turned right down to just make it run. I thought the years of waiting for a VR headset with a great image totally defeats the purpose if you have to turn all the scenery, shadows etc down and on top of that you can't even use anti-aliasing which just reminds me of every old VR headset I've tried and walked away from. Anyway, I sold my G2 shortly after. Going back to a 2D screen is bitterly disappointing and feels like making 5000 steps back but I feel like I had no choice. People really make massive compromises to run VR which I can't. I was considering buying the G2 again after I get my hands on  3080Ti but honestly feel like until we see multi-core utilisation in this sim, VR is not worth if for someone like me. I mean it's crazy to think that with 16 cores @ 4.3GHz and a 3080Ti you are running VR on essentially minimum graphics settings. It's quite sad. Either way though I know ED is working on something like Vulcan so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that by the end of the year I can write a post about how VR is the only way to go in DCS  

[dburne]

I think some are maybe more prone to VR reprojection artifacts than others. Some can tolerate them better and some can not, which is understandable.  It is very much dependent on the person.

I myself can tolerate them, which allows me to be able to run higher graphics settings. For whatever reason my performance with the Reverb G2 seems to have improved a little also.

 

I use WMR for Steam VR Beta and Steam VR Beta. I know Steam VR Beta has had a couple of updates recently. I have found the reprojection artifacts to actually be better than I used to get with my Rift S. 

So what I ended up doing was setting my Motion Smoothing in Steam VR for DCS to force on and always at 45 fps.

Then I cranked the graphics up.

 

 

I have the Reverb G2 running at 100% Resolution in Steam VR.