Any modern NATO RWRs able to detect direction of incoming airborne IFF-interrogation?

[D4n]

So I wondered whether the DCS Flanker aircraft (J-11, Su-33, Su-27) can IFF the DCS Harrier (for example) from their EOS-lock (IRST) without the Harrier's RWR detecting an incoming radio-wave from that specific direction.

 

One would assume an RWR to technically be able to detect the direction of the source of any radio-wave, now according to these two publicly available sources (a document and article) some (or all?) IFF systems are using C, D, E & I-Bands (if I understand the sources correctly), but does this also go for 1980-90s soviet/russian airborne IFF systems?

If so, does anyone know if specific RWRs are at least able to detect the direction of the source of for example airborne 1960s/70s IFF-interrogations? (Is there anything declassified about such meanwhile-50-to-60-years-old IFF-technology?) Very interesting topic imo.
 

*fixed 2nd source link.

Edited January 3, 2021 by DanielNL

[Dagger71]

NATO RWR cannot detect nor triangulate IFF signals. 

[D4n]

40 minutes ago, Dagger71 said:

NATO RWR cannot detect nor triangulate IFF signals. 

source pls

[Dagger71]

Just now, DanielNL said:

source pls

Not how logic works. YOU made the claim then YOU  have the burden of proof to show that RWR detects IFF.

You keep going with this idea and it's going nowhere.  There is no documentation that you can provide to back up your claim that a simple RWR in a NATO  vehicle can identify  any IFF signal. 

 

[D4n]

2 minutes ago, Dagger71 said:

YOU made the claim

Negative, I posted the question, if anyone knows more about it...

[Dagger71]

And it's been answered here and other forum threads and on discord.  RWR ONLY picks up specific RADAR signals .  It does not receive not display  mode C nor ADF no ILS radio signals. 

 

  Do other systems (AWACS or EWR) pick up  IFF from non friendly planes. Unknown,  and even if it possibly could, it would be highly classified, so much so only certain military personnel would be aware and none would confirm that here.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Dagger71

[Mandellorian]

While a lot of people will give you the its highly classified line..its not. Exact capabilities are but the existance of such systems isn`t. Not really much point in pretending something doesn`t exist when you can just go buy a system from CRFS using commerical technology(RFeye Node) that can do it, the sales pitch specifically tells you it can track IFF/ADS-B and Link 16 transmitters. If you really want to know more..BAE have released limited data on the AN/ASQ-239 on their website, you can also read up on the Leonardo SEER/SAGE systems on their website.

[Dagger71]

Just now, Mandellorian said:

While a lot of people will give you the its highly classified line..its not. Exact capabilities are but the existance of such systems isn`t. Not really much point in pretending something doesn`t exist when you can just go buy a system from CRFS using commerical technology(RFeye Node) that can do it, the sales pitch specifically tells you it can track IFF/ADS-B and Link 16 transmitters. If you really want to know more..BAE have released limited data on the AN/ASQ-239 on their website, you can also read up on the Leonardo SEER/SAGE systems on their website.

Still has nothing to do with RWR picking up anything other than radar. It does not pick up IFF interrogation. Fighter/attack jets  do not monitor freqs to monitor radio emission from hostiles.  That falls under Electronic warfare.  

[Emu]

Combat Tree could do it back in the Vietnam War, so I'd be very surprised if newer systems can't.

[jojo]

1 hour ago, Emu said:

Combat Tree could do it back in the Vietnam War, so I'd be very surprised if newer systems can't.

That's different.

US were able to crack Soviet IFF system.

So they would send the correct signal trigger Soviet IFF answer, this would give positive hostile ID, whereas no answer doesn't certify hostile.

I would bet it was plugged to the radar, not the RWR.

[Emu]

On 12/31/2020 at 7:29 AM, Dagger71 said:

Still has nothing to do with RWR picking up anything other than radar. It does not pick up IFF interrogation. Fighter/attack jets  do not monitor freqs to monitor radio emission from hostiles.  That falls under Electronic warfare.  

Modern RWRs aren't really RWRs they're ESMs, they do pick up more than radar and have several methods of geolocation, the best being phase interferometry.  Whether they could pick up a given IFF depends on the sophistication of that system and how well it hides in the background noise.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Emu

[Dagger71]

8 hours ago, Emu said:

Modern RWRs aren't really RWRs they're ESMs, they do pick up more than radar and have several methods of geolocation, the best being phase interferometry.  Whether they could pick up a given IFF depends on the sophistication of that system and how well it hides in the background noise.

 

Absolute  BS!   AN/ALR-67 (In the Harrier)  nor the AN/APG-73 in most other NATO  planes in DCS do no such thing.    .

 

 It is completely irrelevant even  if in 2021 the military has installed a system to identify and triangulate non NATO military IFF. Why?   because none of these systems are in any plane we  currently have in DCS.

 

But I seriously doubt this is the case, so the ball is in YOUR court,  to PROVE it exists, not just by your "hunch".   Provide the RWR model that does what Daniel is asking about. What NATO RWR identifies and traingulates non-nato IFF interrogations.

 This is nothing more than a wish list of imaginary systems.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Dagger71

[Emu]

On 1/1/2021 at 9:36 PM, Dagger71 said:

Absolute  BS!   AN/ALR-67 (In the Harrier)  nor the AN/APG-73 in most other NATO  planes in DCS do no such thing.    .

 

 It is completely irrelevant even  if in 2021 the military has installed a system to identify and triangulate non NATO military IFF. Why?   because none of these systems are in any plane we  currently have in DCS.

 

But I seriously doubt this is the case, so the ball is in YOUR court,  to PROVE it exists, not just by your "hunch".   Provide the RWR model that does what Daniel is asking about. What NATO RWR identifies and traingulates non-nato IFF interrogations.

 This is nothing more than a wish list of imaginary systems.

 

I'm talking about real life not DCS.  This is the Reality section.

 

DASS and SPECTRA can pick up RF signals beyond normal radar frequencies, whether they can pick up a given IFF is anyone's guess but it's theoretically possible, I would imagine the F-35 system can do the same.

 

Could you tell me why you think it isn't possible?

[Dagger71]

1 hour ago, Emu said:

I'm talking about real life not DCS.  This is the Reality section.

 

DASS and SPECTRA can pick up RF signals beyond normal radar frequencies, whether they can pick up a given IFF is anyone's guess but it's theoretically possible, I would imagine the F-35 system can do the same.

 

Could you tell me why you think it isn't possible?

I've already said I am sure there are some EW aircraft that do pickup all sorts of RF signals,possibly even IFF interogations from non nato planes.

The question was do NATO RWR pick up and triangulate these signals. answer is no.

[Emu]

On 1/3/2021 at 12:20 PM, Dagger71 said:

I've already said I am sure there are some EW aircraft that do pickup all sorts of RF signals,possibly even IFF interogations from non nato planes.

The question was do NATO RWR pick up and triangulate these signals. answer is no.

Phase interferometry is the method SPECTRA uses but there are other methods with varying levels of accuracy.  Phase interferometry uses the phase different between the wave hitting adjacent elements of the array to geolocate the source.

 

https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/03/02/rwresm-and-passive-geolocation/

Edited January 4, 2021 by Emu

[QuiGon]

On 12/31/2020 at 8:29 AM, Dagger71 said:

That falls under Electronic warfare.  

So do RWRs.

[Dagger71]

1 hour ago, Emu said:

Phase interferometry is the method SPECTRA uses but there are other methods with varying levels of accuracy.  Phase interferometry uses the phase different between the wave hitting adjacent elements of the array to geolocate the source.

 

https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/03/02/rwresm-and-passive-geolocation/

 

Again NOTHING to do with IFF interrogation. To quote the article: "modern RWR systems (such as ALR-94 , ASQ-239 , Spectra) are capable of classifying the source of the radar by the signal’s strength, phase and waveform type, and even capable of pinpointing the exact location of a ground threat. "


So I will ask you again for proof that any RWR picks up IFF interrogation. Not hypotheticals, not theoreticals, not guesses,PROOF.

[Dagger71]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

So do RWRs.

Please put the entire statement in context.

 

"Fighter/attack jets  do not monitor freqs to monitor radio emission from hostiles.  That falls under Electronic warfare.   "

[QuiGon]

4 minutes ago, Dagger71 said:

Please put the entire statement in context.

 

"Fighter/attack jets  do not monitor freqs to monitor radio emission from hostiles.  That falls under Electronic warfare.   "

That statement doesn't make sense, as radar is radio emission and RWRs monitor that and fall under EW.

[Dagger71]

Just now, QuiGon said:

That statement doesn't make sense, as radar is radio emission and RWRs monitor that and fall under EW.

Well if you don't understand it, I'll leave it at that. Do you have anything relevant to add to the discussion?  

[GGTharos]

On 12/30/2020 at 6:32 PM, DanielNL said:

So I wondered whether the DCS Flanker aircraft (J-11, Su-33, Su-27) can IFF the DCS Harrier (for example) from their EOS-lock (IRST) without the Harrier's RWR detecting an incoming radio-wave from that specific direction.

 

Yep. 

 

Quote

One would assume an RWR to technically be able to detect the direction of the source of any radio-wave,

 

Nope.  IFF is typically outside of the frequency capabilities of an RWR (Depending on age, as they get newer they also gain bandwidth)

 

And while I imagine no one would answer if they knew, think about it this way ... it isn't the RWR's job.  It's job is to sort through a very busy and complex RF spectrum and report threat radars, not interrogation attempts.  IRL you'll have AWACS/GCI or other assets reporting enemy fighter locations anyway - DCS MP servers don't come anywhere near to representing real life air combat.

Edited January 4, 2021 by GGTharos

[D4n]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

DCS MP servers don't come anywhere near to representing real life air combat.

[QuiGon]

10 minutes ago, DanielNL said:

Please don't tell me that comes as a suprise to you. Real life air combat has nothing to do with our chaotic missile slinging on Blue Flag.

[Emu]

20 hours ago, Dagger71 said:

Again NOTHING to do with IFF interrogation. To quote the article: "modern RWR systems (such as ALR-94 , ASQ-239 , Spectra) are capable of classifying the source of the radar by the signal’s strength, phase and waveform type, and even capable of pinpointing the exact location of a ground threat. "


So I will ask you again for proof that any RWR picks up IFF interrogation. Not hypotheticals, not theoreticals, not guesses,PROOF.

I don't understand your question.  IFF is just a radio wave transmission, so what would prevent this system working in the general sense?  I always said that whether a specific ESM system could pick up a specific IFF was down to the specifics of each system, which are usually unknown.

 

Okay, in terms of proof, this is as close as you will likely get on an internet forum.

 

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/threads/rafale-rb-of-indian-air-force-news-and-discussions.3/post-168303

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/members/picdelamirand-oil.23/#about

http://transition.wifeo.com/curriculum-vitae.php

Edited January 5, 2021 by Emu

[Dagger71]

On 1/5/2021 at 3:22 AM, Emu said:

I don't understand your question.  IFF is just a radio wave transmission, so what would prevent this system working in the general sense?  I always said that whether a specific ESM system could pick up a specific IFF was down to the specifics of each system, which are usually unknown.

 

Okay, in terms of proof, this is as close as you will likely get on an internet forum.

 

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/threads/rafale-rb-of-indian-air-force-news-and-discussions.3/post-168303

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/members/picdelamirand-oil.23/#about

http://transition.wifeo.com/curriculum-vitae.php

 

So the answer is no. But  I find it absolutely fascinating that the forum on your link posted the exact same question just two days before you posted this.

We can close this thread.