Notch with JF-17

[Chiron]

i am flying this bird since day one and i have a serious problem .. maybe i am doing something wrong but RWR in JF-17 in matter of Notching is a disaster 
PS . i know how to Notch i am flying with hardcore players who taught me how to Notch nearly 2 years of training not just in JF-17 .. i tried with F-16 / F-18 i am able to Notch missiles pretty easy 
so any suggestions maybe i am missing something . or using RWR wrong i dont know its so frustrated 

in my personal point of view JF-17 RWR is not accurate if u use it in Notch ( my personal ) so if someone know how i would like to share experiance in JF-17 Notching missiles 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Chiron

[uboats]

Could you explain more?

[Chiron]

5 hours ago, uboats said:

Could you explain more?

sure and when i reach home i will create a trk file and also tacview 
what i am facing is in RWR missile position is not accurate if u try to put the missile on your 90degree u can't maintain beaming even when u see the missile on your 90degree update rate is too slow compare to missile speed in F-18 and F-16 the update rate specially inside 10nm approach gave u so accurate missile heading . 
in JF-17 u see the missile location but in general not accurate like missile is coming from 9 o'clock but not in the exact angel degree i will provide u with trk file and tacview to see that its not accurate u are beaming but not beaming general speaking u can't maintain beaming if u relay on RWR

[Jonne]

With that description, I would rather question the realistic simulation of the precision of the F-16/18 RWR.

[Chiron]

2 hours ago, Jonne said:

With that description, I would rather question the realistic simulation of the precision of the F-16/18 RWR.

look lets not enter this area of questions . i am creating trk file and i am waiting for developer team to tell me if my thoughts of RWR capability's right or wrong and also add Mirage2000 in the list i just put F-16 and 18 cuz i tried them i am not delivering other players opinion i am talking about mine but i did the test with mirage also and i was able to maintain Beaming i dont wanna talk much more than my next post will be included with trk files 

[Jonne]

The developers have already communicated the RWR precision in either their manual, or video. Short: It is far from perfect. Thus I expect the other modules getting it wrong, not this one.

 

By the way, if you want to report this as a bug, which it likely isn't, rather than have a discussion about your flying, maybe try posting in the bug report section next time.

[unknown]

34 minutes ago, Jonne said:

By the way, if you want to report this as a bug, which it likely isn't, rather than have a discussion about your flying, maybe try posting in the bug report section next time.

His aproach was/is totally fine/correct. He was suspicious about something and asked. I like this 1 million times more as people who go to the bugs section and spam/claim everything is a bug because they feel so until the dev told them its RL behaviour. He explained his point of view, the dev asked for more clarification, its up to Deka to decide if this is working like intended. 

[Chiron]

@uboats

i did it with JF-17 and F-16 i also reproduced i think its a bug but its random sometimes when u restart the mission or in a server when u respawn Air u lock the target and suddenly disappear from your radar and good luck trying to lock him again 

u can see in F-16 i was able to beam the missile and bandit radar look at the refresh rate and missile and bandit location in F-16 RWR and look at JF-17 ... there is a moment F-16 was jumping in my RWR i tried to do retry as much i can so u can see the difference 

waiting for your opinion and tell me if i am right or Wrong 

Cheers 
 

F-16.trk JF-17.trk

[Chiron]

1 hour ago, unknown said:

His aproach was/is totally fine/correct. He was suspicious about something and asked. I like this 1 million times more as people who go to the bugs section and spam/claim everything is a bug because they feel so until the dev told them its RL behaviour. He explained his point of view, the dev asked for more clarification, its up to Deka to decide if this is working like intended. 

thx friend i hope this can be useful maybe there is something with RWR but i dont know how to address the issue or maybe i am imagining i dont know that is why its in discussion section not bug section

[L0op8ack]

RWR in JF-17 stores signal emmiters in mem for a period of time,

you are notching or not,  signal symbols are displayed as last known az/range, not real time postion of emitter, unless it's in STT mode(update very fast, can be considered as real time update).

scan/TWS signals have an scan interval, signal info(az/range) will not magiclly update between scan intervals, it will look like there is some lag.

RWR can not detect any speed info of the signal emmiters, there is no way to predict.

 

defender's RWR signal emmiter infos are heavily depend on offender's radar mode / scan cycle,

STT gives the defender best signal info, lower scan cycle time(controled by scan az and scan lines) = more precise signal info

[Mustang25]

6 hours ago, Jonne said:

With that description, I would rather question the realistic simulation of the precision of the F-16/18 RWR.

i believe that this is the actual issue. It’s been established from IRL pilot feedback that the US RWRs are vastly overperforming/have been simplified a lot in DCS. 
 

of course, who’s to say if the JF’s RWR is right or wrong down to the specific details but it feels more correct with what we know of how it should actually work IRL. 

[sylkhan]

1 hour ago, L0op8ack said:

defender's RWR signal emmiter infos are heavily depend on offender's radar mode / scan cycle,

STT gives the defender best signal info, lower scan cycle time(controled by scan az and scan lines) = more precise signal info

yes, but as soon as the radar 's missile is active, the RWR must give accurate distance/azimut in real time of the inbound missile.

Edited January 7, 2021 by sylkhan

[Jonne]

2 hours ago, sylkhan said:

yes, but as soon as the radar 's missile is active, the RWR must give accurate distance/azimut in real time of the inbound missile.

 

And how on earth shall that happen? Its an RWR, not a crystal ball.

[Chiron]

4 hours ago, L0op8ack said:

RWR in JF-17 stores signal emmiters in mem for a period of time,

you are notching or not,  signal symbols are displayed as last known az/range, not real time postion of emitter, unless it's in STT mode(update very fast, can be considered as real time update).

scan/TWS signals have an scan interval, signal info(az/range) will not magiclly update between scan intervals, it will look like there is some lag.

RWR can not detect any speed info of the signal emmiters, there is no way to predict.

 

defender's RWR signal emmiter infos are heavily depend on offender's radar mode / scan cycle,

STT gives the defender best signal info, lower scan cycle time(controled by scan az and scan lines) = more precise signal info

thx for the respond 

[sylkhan]

1 hour ago, Jonne said:

 

And how on earth shall that happen? Its an RWR, not a crystal ball.

Is this a question or an affirmation ?

If it's a question, i can answer, if it's an affirmation, that's stupid.

[Chiron]

5 hours ago, L0op8ack said:

RWR in JF-17 stores signal emmiters in mem for a period of time,

you are notching or not,  signal symbols are displayed as last known az/range, not real time postion of emitter, unless it's in STT mode(update very fast, can be considered as real time update).

scan/TWS signals have an scan interval, signal info(az/range) will not magiclly update between scan intervals, it will look like there is some lag.

RWR can not detect any speed info of the signal emmiters, there is no way to predict.

 

defender's RWR signal emmiter infos are heavily depend on offender's radar mode / scan cycle,

STT gives the defender best signal info, lower scan cycle time(controled by scan az and scan lines) = more precise signal info

but i think when the missile goes Pitbull he is STT me if i am not wrong 

[sylkhan]

1 hour ago, Chiron said:

but i think when the missile goes Pitbull he is STT me if i am not wrong 

Yes it is

[dundun92]

ARH missiles are STT yes, but you have to realize that there is inherent innacuracy in RWRs, and that the F-16/18 RWRs really arent good comparisons as they are over modeled in the accuracy department. Comparing this to something like the F-14, which has an actual realistically modeled RWR, is much better, and youll get a better idea of what RWRs are actually like IRL.

[Blinky.ben]

45 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

ARH missiles are STT yes, but you have to realize that there is inherent innacuracy in RWRs, and that the F-16/18 RWRs really arent good comparisons as they are over modeled in the accuracy department. Comparing this to something like the F-14, which has an actual realistically modeled RWR, is much better, and youll get a better idea of what RWRs are actually like IRL.

I can second this comment from a real life perspective. We use radar detecting equipment in our search aircraft in real life and we fairly regularly track radar signals

If we were to fly straight towards the signals bearing I will constantly be updating the pilots tracking course as we get closer due to the margins of error with the signal. You can easily visually see the margins when we are detecting and tracking another radar signal for example we will map out lines and then move to another location to map out the signal from another bearing and again to create a cross section. BUT we will always get a triangle of error which can vary in size for each contact but the contact is always within the triangle. This trick always has a error margin due to the fact that a signal hitting the RWR aerial is not completely accurate. This is due to the fact radar antennas shoot the pulse out in a expanding cone and not a laser tight pulse. So when the signal hits the Aerial it is covering a certain percentage of the aerials surface and not a laser sharp pointer on a very small part of the aerials surface. I realise it is a little more in depth then this but you get my point. However the closer you get the more accurate it is but even at 10nm there is still a margin of error it’s just smaller.

 

fun fact the larger the radars antenna the smaller the pulse is. So a missiles tiny tiny antenna is going to shot a pulse with a larger cone.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Blinky.ben

[GGTharos]

Here's an example of a DIY SDR doing work:

 

RWRs and other dedicated equipment are going to be much more accurate for a number of reasons - this should just give you an idea of what's going on with the radio signals.  This is much more 'raw' than what an RWR does.