mytai01 Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) Has anyone else noticed that the F-86C's performance in BFM is superior to the F-16C? It retains, and gain, energy better... I've been experimenting with taking them both up against an AI-Ace F-4E, and have had a much easier time flying the F-86 against it, than the F-16. Why would that be, and is that consistent with real world reports? Lucky shots in the face are just that...lucky! Trying to chase this thing down in a tail chase for any extended period is much harder than in the F-86... Edited January 10, 2021 by mytai01 MS Win7 Pro x64, Intel i7-6700K 4.0Ghz, Corsair RAM 16Gb,EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 FTW GAMING ACX 3.0, w/ Adjustable RGB LED Graphics Card 08G-P4-6286-KR, Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champ PCIe Sound Card, Corsair Neutron XTI 1TB SSD, TM Warthog Throttle & Stick, TM TPR Pedels, Oculus Rift VR Headset CV1, Klipsch Promedia 4.1 Speakers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger-II Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) AI is useless. It has far too much power generally, and can turn too tightly. I know for example the F-5 SFM has twice the afterburning thrust than it is supposed to have. No wonder it flies like a literal rocket in the vertical. I wish they'd address this - it wouldn't be that hard to tone down the crazy over-powered nature of their FMs. It's the single biggest weakness of the AI. Edited February 16, 2021 by Tiger-II Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port "When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover. The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts. "An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger-II Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 On 1/10/2021 at 9:47 PM, mytai01 said: Has anyone else noticed that the F-86C's performance in BFM is superior to the F-16C? It retains, and gain, energy better... I've been experimenting with taking them both up against an AI-Ace F-4E, and have had a much easier time flying the F-86 against it, than the F-16. Why would that be, and is that consistent with real world reports? Lucky shots in the face are just that...lucky! Trying to chase this thing down in a tail chase for any extended period is much harder than in the F-86... Why are you in extenal view with the F-16 but the cockpit view of the F-86? The F-16 video is nearly useless! When you were chasing the F-4 in the F-86 your airpeed was high (400 kts). What was it with the F-16? Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port "When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover. The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts. "An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytai01 Posted February 21, 2021 Author Share Posted February 21, 2021 Thanks for your feedback. I'll try to post one in cockpit view... 1 MS Win7 Pro x64, Intel i7-6700K 4.0Ghz, Corsair RAM 16Gb,EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 FTW GAMING ACX 3.0, w/ Adjustable RGB LED Graphics Card 08G-P4-6286-KR, Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champ PCIe Sound Card, Corsair Neutron XTI 1TB SSD, TM Warthog Throttle & Stick, TM TPR Pedels, Oculus Rift VR Headset CV1, Klipsch Promedia 4.1 Speakers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger-II Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 2 hours ago, mytai01 said: Thanks for your feedback. I'll try to post one in cockpit view... Thanks! Can you send me your mission? I'll try flying it here, too. Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port "When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover. The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts. "An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probad Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 did you know a biplane can also outturn an f-16???????? absolutely scandalous 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger-II Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 On 2/21/2021 at 5:04 AM, probad said: did you know a biplane can also outturn an f-16???????? absolutely scandalous I'd like to see it do even 300 kts though. LOL Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port "When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover. The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts. "An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytai01 Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) I tried to fly the F-16 against the JF-17, but I found it completely impossible to maintain any airspeed, or control authority. So, I jumped into the F/A-18, and found a completely improved experience. I would say the JF-17 AI is performing well beyond reality against the DCS: F-16C, but after taking it on in the DCS: F/A-18C, I'd have to say the DCS: F-16C flight model is like flying in molasses. Sum ting Wong with the DCS: F-16C flight model, or the real F-16C is a piece of junk compared to the other aircraft...I've included the mission that I've been flying. Also, I just swap out various aircraft in this mission to keep some continuity... BFM Training.miz Edited February 24, 2021 by mytai01 1 MS Win7 Pro x64, Intel i7-6700K 4.0Ghz, Corsair RAM 16Gb,EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 FTW GAMING ACX 3.0, w/ Adjustable RGB LED Graphics Card 08G-P4-6286-KR, Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champ PCIe Sound Card, Corsair Neutron XTI 1TB SSD, TM Warthog Throttle & Stick, TM TPR Pedels, Oculus Rift VR Headset CV1, Klipsch Promedia 4.1 Speakers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probad Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 "wtf trying to pull angles on angle fighters makes my rate fighter eat shit????? noooooooooooo it cant be my fault for flying wrong!!!!!!" angles fighting is natural for most people and it takes some work to learn the different sight picture and reactions needed to make rate fights work. it will feel like you're giving up the fight but you must learn to lag your pursuit. think in terms of running up his ass instead of leading to intercept. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytai01 Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 2 hours ago, probad said: "wtf trying to pull angles on angle fighters makes my rate fighter eat shit????? noooooooooooo it cant be my fault for flying wrong!!!!!!" angles fighting is natural for most people and it takes some work to learn the different sight picture and reactions needed to make rate fights work. it will feel like you're giving up the fight but you must learn to lag your pursuit. think in terms of running up his ass instead of leading to intercept. If these were real aircraft, I would agree that I need to work on my flying skills, but they are not real aircraft. The flight model in the DCS: F-16C is not where it should be, yet. The other aircraft in DCS are very much different in handling qualities. Your, "PC-fighter-jock" sarcasm is non-sense. Hopefully, they'll figure out what's wrong with the flight model and fix it... It wouldn't surprise me that there are compensations built into PC flight models. Remember how crazy the flight model was in the SA342 when it was first released? It was very wild to handle. I'm sure a similar maturing process needs to occur in the DCS: F-16... Sometimes a flight model can be too real in a flight simulator. Without the real world feedback of the jet that a pilot would actually experience it becomes like flying blind... MS Win7 Pro x64, Intel i7-6700K 4.0Ghz, Corsair RAM 16Gb,EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 FTW GAMING ACX 3.0, w/ Adjustable RGB LED Graphics Card 08G-P4-6286-KR, Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champ PCIe Sound Card, Corsair Neutron XTI 1TB SSD, TM Warthog Throttle & Stick, TM TPR Pedels, Oculus Rift VR Headset CV1, Klipsch Promedia 4.1 Speakers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeCuvier Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 I had been flying the Sabre against the MiG-15 (AI) and found it difficult but feasible (AI skill not higher than Trained). Then I thought "It must be a piece of cake if I fly the F-16 instead of the Sabre". The F-16 has a huge advantage in mass/thrust so it should easily out-accelerate the old MiG. Well, in a true dogfight the MiG would get me easily. The F-16 really is extremely unresponsive and maytai's expression "is like flying in molasses" is spot-on. And the MiG AI obviously has an unrealistically high mass/thrust ratio (or it loses too little energy in turns). The AI FM's are not all overdone though. I can kill the MiG-21 AI with the Bf-109, but that does not work when I fight the MiG-15 AI. LeCuvier Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytai01 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 Here's my latest video of the DCS: F-16C vs DCS: JF-17... MS Win7 Pro x64, Intel i7-6700K 4.0Ghz, Corsair RAM 16Gb,EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 FTW GAMING ACX 3.0, w/ Adjustable RGB LED Graphics Card 08G-P4-6286-KR, Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champ PCIe Sound Card, Corsair Neutron XTI 1TB SSD, TM Warthog Throttle & Stick, TM TPR Pedels, Oculus Rift VR Headset CV1, Klipsch Promedia 4.1 Speakers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eviscerador Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 The Sabre can and will out turn any modern jet on the horizontal plane. Really low drag and light weight even for a small engine. If you want to win against a F86 with the Viper, just go on the vertical and hit the burner. But yeah, against human players that expect the F16 to outturn the good old korean warrior it is a nasty surprise. I remember I was doing some fun flying with the sabre in our own squadron server with some other guys. I was even with the large drop tanks for cruising and they wanted to test the Viper in BFM agains the old man so yeah, they did. And all of them ended in my sights till they just hit the burner and went full vertical. Even then, it is quite hard to get a good firing solution on the sabre because it has enough speed and energy to just stay on the defensive and avoid a clean solution. In the end the vipers got on bingo and I kept flying with the externals still half full. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireNZ Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 I the F-16 flight model is far from complete and I wouldn't even bother trying to compare it to anything at the moment.... Items currently being worked on for the Viper include: Updated flight model dynamics for G and angle of attack. So yea, currently the trust is wrong, drag is wrong, g and AOA energy bleed is wrong etc etc. Asus Maximus VIII Hero Alpha| i7-6700K @ 4.60GHz | nVidia GTX 1080ti Strix OC 11GB @ 2075MHz| 16GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB 3200Mhz DDR4 CL14 | Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2 SSD | Corsair Force LE 480GB SSD | Windows 10 64-Bit | TM Warthog with FSSB R3 Lighting Base | VKB Gunfighter Pro + MCG | TM MFD's | Oculus Rift S | Jetseat FSE [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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