resolved Aim-120, Aim-7MH, SD-10 produce 0% hit chance against non-manuevering hot target with blinking ECM+chaff

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

My god people are catching on, please fix !  :((( 
Is it possible to disable "ECM blinking" for the time being maybe ? 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[HWasp]

Don't know, seems like kind of a big deal to me... 

This type of shit should be hotfixed asap in my opinion. (disable ecm, add timer, whatever)

[Joni]

Can someone help me understand the issue here? I can see dcs is completely broken right now but I would like to know what the specific issue is.

 

I saw the OP saying ECM and some chaff generated the bug, but then you guys talked about ECM blinking.

 

So what is the exact bug here? 

[GGTharos]

The ECM blinking on/off (programmatically, the flag saying true/false) is causing a problem because every time ECM goes from TRUE to FALSE, radars drop lock, 100% of the time.  This makes it impossible to guide RF missiles onto an aircraft that is doing this.

 

Chaff may be adding to the problem, but it's sort of auxiliary.

Edited February 22, 2021 by GGTharos

[Joni]

22 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

The ECM blinking on/off (programmatically, the flag saying true/false) is causing a problem because every time ECM goes from TRUE to FALSE, radars drop lock, 100% of the time.  This makes it impossible to guide RF missiles onto an aircraft that is doing this.

 

Chaff may be adding to the problem, but it's sort of auxiliary.

 

 

Thank you.

 

So if I for instance would have blinked the ecm on and off in the mirage months ago I would have trashed all active missiles?

 

Or this is due to the hornet's update?

Edited February 22, 2021 by Joni

[GGTharos]

It has nothing to do with the hornet specifically, it has been this way for a decade.

[Joni]

1 minute ago, GGTharos said:

It has nothing to do with the hornet specifically, it has been this way for a decade.

 

Why all the fuss then? I thought this was a new bug introduced.

 

Im sorry I may be missing the point here.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Joni

[GGTharos]

Because it was never intended to be used this way, it was never meant to trash all missiles consistenly ... this is why the FC3 birds gained a 15 sec 'warm up' to ECM but FF modules don't have this, so this stop-gap no longer applies and it needs to be fixed in a different way.

[Joni]

2 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Because it was never intended to be used this way, it was never meant to trash all missiles consistenly ... this is why the FC3 birds gained a 15 sec 'warm up' to ECM but FF modules don't have this, so this stop-gap no longer applies and it needs to be fixed in a different way.

 

Quote

So if I for instance would have blinked the ecm on and off in the mirage months ago I would have trashed all active missiles?

 

So yes? I could have done that? Why is it an issue now? Why all the fuss here in this post if it was always this way?

 

 

[GGTharos]

The quote answers your question ...

[Joni]

13 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

The quote answers your question ...

 

If it had you wouldn't have had to post that "reply".

 

Again, why all the fuss?????? Why this post? Why complaining if it was always like this? 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Joni

[QuiGon]

16 minutes ago, Joni said:

Again, why all the fuss?????? Why this post? Why complaining if it was always like this?

 

Because it's still an issue and with more and more non FC3 aircraft that are ECM capable, but don't have the 15 sec warmup this issue becomes bigger and bigger. Also I think the F-14 and or F-18 ECM does blinking on it's own, which drastically increases the severness of the issue. It actually has revealed the issue after all AFAIK. At least I was not aware of this issue before this thread came to live.

Edited February 22, 2021 by QuiGon

[Joni]

6 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

Because it's still an issue and with more and more non FC3 aircraft that are ECM capable, but don't have the 15 sec warmup this issue becomes bigger and bigger. Also I think the F-14 and or F-18 ECM does blinking on it's own, which drastically increases the severness of the issue. It actually has revealed the issue after all AFAIK. At least I was not aware of this issue before this thread came to live.

 

 

Something doesn't add up IMHO. If the mirage, f14 and don't know what other FF module could always trash amraams like candies I would have noticed it, and it would have exploaded way before this thread.

 

I still don't understand the issue, and probably because of the same reason why ED hasn't showed up here yet.

[GGTharos]

41 minutes ago, Joni said:

Something doesn't add up IMHO.

 

Everything adds up.  ED never meant BVR to be erased by ECM, that's what the fuss is about - and they understand this very well, despite your trolling attempt to somehow tie the lack of ED's response to this particular thread to them not acknowledging that this is a problem.

Edited February 22, 2021 by GGTharos

[HWasp]

Simple question is: why is there no bandaid fix for this at least? I don't expect a complete solution quick, but adding a general cooldown timer to ECMs does not sound like something extremely complicated, especially since FC 3 already does that.

 

I think this is a bit too severe to just let it stay like this until some more serious ecm overhaul is done

[Joni]

38 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

Everything adds up.  ED never meant BVR to be erased by ECM, that's what the fuss is about - and they understand this very well, despite your trolling attempt to somehow tie the lack of ED's response to this particular thread to them not acknowledging that this is a problem.

 

 

Not only I am not trolling in any attempt to cover anything, I am not a fan of eagle dynamics's working methodologies, in fact I think DCS is in its worst state ever. So you missed everything.

 

I just don't understand the difference between today and a couple of months ago, that's all.

 

I don't know why it takes you so long to get it.

 

[captain_dalan]

It's more about the difference between now and a few years ago. Until fairly recent times, most BVR fighters were FC3 planes. This is no longer the case. Most fighters are now FF modules. And their number is going to increase.

[yaga2]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:03 PM, Joni said:

 

Not only I am not trolling in any attempt to cover anything, I am not a fan of eagle dynamics's working methodologies, in fact I think DCS is in its worst state ever. So you missed everything.

 

I just don't understand the difference between today and a couple of months ago, that's all.

 

I don't know why it takes you so long to get it.

 

 

There's not a difference in ECM effect. It was an issue. It still is an issue. As more FF aircraft get the ability to run ECM, the effect of the issue on gameplay increases. 

 

Apart from that, the more people that are aware this issue exists, the larger the issue becomes as the occurence of the problem naturally increases in the wild.

 

Further more, when someone previously unaware of a problem learns about a problem, it's effectively a new problem from their perspective. Because for them, it is. 

 

Seems a lot of people suddenly found out. Perhaps partially due to publication pertaining to competitive events banning ECM use because of the bug, perhaps partially due to the ever increasing qty of ECM-using aircraft not subject to a 'warm-up' time to start jamming. Or perhaps a large volume of people en-masse just decided to start testing stuff coincidentally. Who can really say? 

 

Regardless of if this answers your question, it's fairly separate from anything relative the topic on hand: 

 

-ECM is not working as intended.

-Given this, ECM can effect gameplay in dramatically negative (and again, unintentional) ways. 

-This issue will be felt more as ECM is added for more modules in its current state. 

 

Is there anything about that you disagree with? 

Edited February 24, 2021 by yaga2
i was lazy- should have proof-read

[Joni]

5 hours ago, yaga2 said:

 

There's not a difference in ECM effect. It was an issue. It still is an issue. As more FF aircraft get the ability to run ECM, the effect of the issue on gameplay increases. 

 

Apart from that, the more people that are aware this issue exists, the larger the issue becomes as the occurence of the problem naturally increases in the wild.

 

Further more, when someone previously unaware of a problem learns about a problem, it's effectively a new problem from their perspective. Because for them, it is. 

 

Seems a lot of people suddenly found out. Perhaps partially due to publication pertaining to competitive events banning ECM use because of the bug, perhaps partially due to the ever increasing qty of ECM-using aircraft not subject to a 'warm-up' time to start jamming. Or perhaps a large volume of people en-masse just decided to start testing stuff coincidentally. Who can really say? 

 

Regardless of if this answers your question, it's fairly separate from anything relative the topic on hand: 

 

-ECM is not working as intended.

-Given this, ECM can effect gameplay in dramatically negative (and again, unintentional) ways. 

-This issue will be felt more as ECM is added for more modules in its current state. 

 

Is there anything about that you disagree with? 

 

Thanks, only fifth posts and you were much more helpful than the other guy.

 

I always turn ECM on and leave it on in the mirage for example and never trashed an amraam without having to manouver hard. Would the issue have occured if I had turned it on and off a few times?

[Lurker]

6 minutes ago, Joni said:

Thanks, only fifth posts and you were much more helpful than the other guy.

 

Would the issue have occured if I had turned it on and off a few times?

Yes. You would have trashed the missiles. Also, the main reason why it's become such a big issue now is because recently the Hornet got a big ECM update and Hornet drivers figured out that they could do this. 

[Joni]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Yes. You would have trashed the missiles. Also, the main reason why it's become such a big issue now is because recently the Hornet got a big ECM update and Hornet drivers figured out that they could do this. 

 

Then I can't believe this issue was never resolved. It's incredible.

[SgtPappy]

1 hour ago, Joni said:

Thanks, only fifth posts and you were much more helpful than the other guy.

 

I always turn ECM on and leave it on in the mirage for example and never trashed an amraam without having to manouver hard. Would the issue have occured if I had turned it on and off a few times?

 

Actually as I understand, the reason it was actually never noticed before in addition to what yaga mentioned is that this bug did not come into effect until the missile API update which was last year I think. EDIT: and now I read above that the Hornets can do this too, further adding to the FF modules that can do this.

 

The intercept geometry of the AIM-120's, AIM-7 and AIM-54s all changed and maybe even a few more missiles were affected. I can't remember. At any rate, I tested this a bit (my original thread here) and found that indeed, some missiles were NOT affected at all and these happened to not get the API update as I understand (i.e. R-27ER, correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

Since that time, I saw 1 guy in an F-14B simply fly hot, wagging side to side with some chaff and his jammer on spoof all my AIM-7s launched from 8, 6 and 4 nm. The tracks and videos provided in my old post then show my testing online with a buddy and the AMRAAMs.

Edited February 24, 2021 by SgtPappy
Shown adbove

[Teknetinium]

On 2/22/2021 at 5:39 PM, GGTharos said:

Because it was never intended to be used this way, it was never meant to trash all missiles consistenly ... this is why the FC3 birds gained a 15 sec 'warm up' to ECM but FF modules don't have this, so this stop-gap no longer applies and it needs to be fixed in a different way.

Not true, when 15 sec was implemented the AIM-120 tracked just fine home on jam or on the blinking jammer. 15 sec was implemented because it broke your TWS shot, lets be honest. Dont make problems that we have now in to why something was implemented before. 

[HWasp]

5 hours ago, Joni said:

 

Then I can't believe this issue was never resolved. It's incredible.

 

I can't believe it either....

 

The F-14 brought this thing out in the open: Automatic blinking + Jester dispensing chaff automatically. ---> this is in effect even if the pilot does not want to abuse anything just simply turns on ECM.

 

This thing needs to be hotfixed the most simple and quick way possible!

[Tango3B]

25 minutes ago, HWasp said:

 

I can't believe it either....

 

The F-14 brought this thing out in the open: Automatic blinking + Jester dispensing chaff automatically. ---> this is in effect even if the pilot does not want to abuse anything just simply turns on ECM.

 

This thing needs to be hotfixed the most simple and quick way possible!

Yup. Something needs to be done to address this a.s.a.p. because on a certain very well known PvP server certain gentlemen in their Mirages are kind of "invulnerable", recently. I do understand that these gentlemen do take advantage of the current situation but it is certainly no fun anymore as more and more people use this "exploit". And it gets to a whole new level fighting Tomcats sometimes. I mean, I can handle it fighting these guys but the problem here is pretty obvious. The question remains, though how difficult it is for ED to address this "bug" in the quickest way possible as there might be more to it then we know...

Edited February 24, 2021 by Tango3B