resolved Aim-120, Aim-7MH, SD-10 produce 0% hit chance against non-manuevering hot target with blinking ECM+chaff

[HWasp]

If they'd add the FC3 15 second delay for now, I'd be ok with that. Also HB could be asked to revert to normal non-blinking FC3 ECM for the time being.

 

Overall these things should be modeled to the same standard for all modules anyway, just like weapons (hopefully we will get there....)

[Tango3B]

15 hours ago, HWasp said:

If they'd add the FC3 15 second delay for now, I'd be ok with that. Also HB could be asked to revert to normal non-blinking FC3 ECM for the time being.

 

Overall these things should be modeled to the same standard for all modules anyway, just like weapons (hopefully we will get there....)

This could be one possible quick fix solution. But I guess it would make more sense to change the missile tracking logic in the way that it switches between HoJ and STT tracking. For the time being it should fix our "little" problem and it should not be too hard to implement or alter this in the "missile code".

[Joni]

18 hours ago, HWasp said:

If they'd add the FC3 15 second delay for now, I'd be ok with that. 

 

 

 

What does that do? Why a delay makes that the bug dissapears?

 

Thanks.

[GGTharos]

It doesn't make it disappear, it makes it palatable and it doesn't cause 100% of missiles to fail to track.   It still causes problems, just not as many.  This was the original compromise tot he problem.

[SgtPappy]

18 minutes ago, Joni said:

 

What does that do? Why a delay makes that the bug dissapears?

 

Thanks.

As mentioned earlier, the missile guidance logic/API whatever you want to call it appears to have coincided with this bug's emergence at least when it comes to the AIM-120's, AIM-7's etc. but not the R-77, R-27ER which were not affected by the guidance update.

 

Since this bug only happens when the jammers blink (causing the affected missiles to go from HoJ to losing lock completely even at very short WVR combat), it makes sense to make the manually-blinked jammers (i.e. Mirage 2000, F-14, and F/A-18 now?) to be unable to blink at any rate that would affect the missiles. This would be the 15 sec warmup time was done to the FC3 planes' ECM which prevented another lock-related bug back in the day and that worked as intended. 

 

However I think the problem may not be completely solved and I'm just thinking out loud here: I would think if the 15 sec warmup is implemented, the jammer will trash one missile upon turning off (so whatever missile is on the way will lose lock) but 15 sec later, any other missile on the way will likely hit whether the jammer turns on or not. However some missiles can be launched past 15 sec TTI, and those ones will be affected if the jammer then turns off again. Maybe the warmup time should be longer? Or maybe I've got something backwards.

[GGTharos]

The 15 sec warm-up was a stop-gap measure that became a defacto 'fix' .  A 'warm up time' would only be a stop-gap fix.  Realistically the level of ECM/ECCM simulation needs to be increased.

Edited February 25, 2021 by GGTharos

[SgtPappy]

Yeah the F/A-18 recent ECM update gives me some hope that there may be an ECM/ECCM update eventually. Though I've got my fingers crossed, I surely don't want to be the conductor for that hype train just yet!

[GGTharos]

@BIGNEWY or @NineLine, this is a really bad issue that needs a quick solution.  Is this being tracked anywhere else?

 

If so, could you consolidate the relevant threads and mark it as Investigating?

If not, could you .. investigate?  There's a huge amount of proof for this problem is it's really easy to reproduce.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi GGTharos, the thread is already marked reported. 

 

We have to wait for the team now. 

 

thanks

[GGTharos]

Thanks BIGNEWY, apparently I'm blind to labels

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Did Heatblur not make the F14's ECM blink only very recently in an update ? 

[dundun92]

On 2/27/2021 at 12:22 PM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Did Heatblur not make the F14's ECM blink only very recently in an update ? 

Source? Lets not start the baseless, evidenceless Heatblur hate train that you like to start?

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Well, this ECM blinking apparently has always been a problem. 
It is even why the FC3 aircraft have this 'warmup' thing. 

But only very recently this problem has resurfaced (Original thread spoke about F14 only, with AIM54 only misisle not affected) so it makes sense that this blinking ECM of F14 was only recently added/changed in the F14 ?  
Yes, the mirage has this also but you don't see it online a lot so it could have had blinking ECM since forever without really getting noticed . 

So i was just wondering, was this blinking ECM recently added in the F14 ? And if so, (also when it was added not recently) why not disable blinking for the time being just like the FC3 aircraft have been for years ?
It would be a temporary solution but it's needed right now. 
 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Northstar98]

If there's one thing we can agree on, it's that EW in DCS is in need of a rework, unfortunately it sounds like a lot of work.

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

If there's one thing we can agree on, it's that EW in DCS is in need of a rework, unfortunately it sounds like a lot of work.

 

No doubt about that indeed.

[SgtPappy]

4 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Well, this ECM blinking apparently has always been a problem. 
It is even why the FC3 aircraft have this 'warmup' thing. 

But only very recently this problem has resurfaced (Original thread spoke about F14 only, with AIM54 only misisle not affected) so it makes sense that this blinking ECM of F14 was only recently added/changed in the F14 ?  
Yes, the mirage has this also but you don't see it online a lot so it could have had blinking ECM since forever without really getting noticed . 

So i was just wondering, was this blinking ECM recently added in the F14 ? And if so, (also when it was added not recently) why not disable blinking for the time being just like the FC3 aircraft have been for years ?
It would be a temporary solution but it's needed right now. 
 

 

 

I can't confirm if the F-14 blinking ECM was recent (I think it always blinked, TBH) but what is recent and has been stated a couple times is the missile API upgrade. In combination with blinking ECM and chaff, the API-upgraded missile effectively become duds. Therefore, exploiting this is new and this is why it's only popping up in servers now. 

 

And yes, the warmup time indeed is one proposal.

Edited March 1, 2021 by SgtPappy

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Judging from the changelogs it seems multiplayer isn't of great concern to anyone at ED and third party devs. 

[Jonne]

11 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Judging from the changelogs it seems multiplayer isn't of great concern to anyone at ED and third party devs. 

What does this have to do with multiplayer?

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

sigh ... 

[rob10]

15 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

sigh ... 

Seriously -- the current changes are strictly campaign updates.  I hope for the people that play MP they are working on the issues, but there is pretty much ZERO chance that any non-campaign type bugs (MP or general) are going to be fixed before the next update.  Would you rather let the people playing these campaigns not get fixes which are pretty independent of the core game?  Would you like DCS to take a bunch of time to try and fix things (and test the fixes) in a version which is going to be obsolete shortly?  The upcoming update is supposed to be a fairly major change so anything they do with the old (current) version may not be directly applicable to the new version.  And please don't use the "it's an easy fix" line because you have no idea if that's true or not (just because it looks like it should be from the outside doesn't mean it won't mess up a whole bunch of stuff).

[Northstar98]

20 hours ago, rob10 said:

Seriously -- the current changes are strictly campaign updates.  I hope for the people that play MP they are working on the issues, but there is pretty much ZERO chance that any non-campaign type bugs (MP or general) are going to be fixed before the next update.  Would you rather let the people playing these campaigns not get fixes which are pretty independent of the core game?  Would you like DCS to take a bunch of time to try and fix things (and test the fixes) in a version which is going to be obsolete shortly?  The upcoming update is supposed to be a fairly major change so anything they do with the old (current) version may not be directly applicable to the new version.  And please don't use the "it's an easy fix" line because you have no idea if that's true or not (just because it looks like it should be from the outside doesn't mean it won't mess up a whole bunch of stuff).

 

Exactly, plus wouldn't we prefer ED concentrate on 2.7 as much as possible, so that they actually hit the deadline.

[Nealius]

12 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Exactly, plus wouldn't we prefer ED concentrate on 2.7 as much as possible, so that they actually hit the deadline.

 

But will 2.7 fix all of our issues with missile guidance bugs that make A2A combat irritating at best and unplayable at worst?

[Northstar98]

44 minutes ago, Nealius said:

But will 2.7 fix all of our issues with missile guidance bugs that make A2A combat irritating at best and unplayable at worst?

 

I hope so, though it seems like the A/A missile API still has a way to go.

[Arikaj]

Just coming through and asking for a update so dust won't cover it

[Teknetinium]

On 2/26/2021 at 8:01 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi GGTharos, the thread is already marked reported. 

 

We have to wait for the team now. 

 

thanks

Will 15 sec warm up jammer be removed for Flankers/F-15? Plz stop divide Fc3 from what ever you think you are flying. What is more realistic could be debatable from both perspectives, let us keep the community together and do what ever we can so it gets as realistic as possible with no double standards.  

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Teknetinium