Heatblur F-4 Phantom

[Cypher1o1]

I'm all good with any Navy model or like the f-14 2 different F-4s, a F-4E and the most similar Navy model.

[Uxi]

I want to see US Navy F-4N & F-4S ideally by HB with Jester (or call it Viper?). Jolly Rogers a must. 

 

USAF F-4E and maybe F-4G would be nice, too.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Uxi

[Biggus]

Keep it simple-ish.

 

F-4J and S.  Both use many of the systems that are already in the Tomcat, both shared decks with the A-6E and the A-7E, and both are useful for scenarios where we have some good opfor modules already in existence (Fishbed) or coming (Flogger and early Fulcrum).  Add to that, we'd get the VTAS helmet cueing and PD radar that isn't on the land-based birds.  I'll take a better radar over a gun any day of the week.

[Fangs Out]

Well, I rather Have a F-4E and F-4S, both are important and one was with the F-14A until 87

[LanceCriminal86]

So many good carrier options to do, but I do foresee HB, if they did do another carrier, picking a one-off instead of committing to a whole class.

 

If that's the case, I'd think the Kennedy or Enterprise would have to be two very important choices.

 

If we ever get an F-4J/S combo, then the Midway might be another cool addition.

 

I guess now the new guy on the block or maybe Leatherneck/Magnitude 3 will have to do the Kitty Hawk, Constellation, and America.

 

Then we circle back with pitchforks to get ED to just go back and add the first 3 Nimitz class to the Supercarrier pack, because Nimitz, Vinson, and Eisenhower are very important.

 

 

All this really signals, to me, that the Supercarrier needs to be made into a template of sorts that 3rd parties can drop their model onto a framework and easily adapt them. This then applies to non-US carriers, like the Ark Royal or the French Clemenceau or Foch.

[WinterH]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:10 PM, Bravelink03 said:

Well, I rather Have a F-4E and F-4S, both are important and one was with the F-14A until 87

Yeah, no E = might as well be no F-4 for me.

 

Though for a naval variant, I can see arguments for both later ones, and earlier J, as J saw more conflict, and was also used by UK in addition to USA.

[Bremspropeller]

Real Phantoms are grey.

 

A Juliet and a Sierra (with all the bells and whistles) would be very cool and that would round-up the increasingly impressive number of USN/ USMC aircraft modules.

[WinterH]

9 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Real Phantoms are grey.

That's right, a lot of F-4Es (also known as actual, real F-4s) are/were grey indeed. As opposed to whiteish naval/marine thingies

[KWard]

I normally fly Navy, but if I could pick only one Phantom variant it'd be the Vietnam-era E. I'm tickled by the idea of flying Chico the Gunfighter. That was a... shall we day distinctive... loadout.

[Baco]

We have the F 14 A and B, we are getting The F4U and the F8U...

We need the F-4J to have the complete Jolly Rogers series

 

P.S. By the way if anybody wants to throw in a Cougar  and or Fury also, I would not mind one bit

Edited February 27, 2021 by Baco

[Harlikwin]

TBH, its my preference that HB do a phantom vs any other party for the simple reason that the HB FM's and systems modeling are IMO the best in DCS. When I fly an F14 I "FEEL" like I'm flying an F14. Literally any other module, there is no "FEEL" to them, they are sterile. Which, maybe is fine for a Viper or F18, but its just plain bad on something like a mig15, 19, F5 etc.

 

That and as many folks have pointed out, Jester is the only GIB currently working. 

 

That being said, it would be ALOT of work to do different modules, but at least they would be consistent. Maybe HB could do 2 different F4 modules, Navy AND Airforce versions with maybe like 2-3 related birds for each one. 

 

[Swordsman422]

I'd rather get a Navy Phantom, and specifically the F-4B and its variants, which did most of the MiG killing over Vietnam. However, the F-4E was the most widely exported variant and aside USAF would also cover Australia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Iran, Japan, Spain, Germany, and South Korea. A B would only cover USN and USMC, and the USAF evaluation copies. A J, pretty much the same and the RAF. F-4Js in FAA service were re-engined with the RR Spey and had an extended fuselage. Unfortunately this means Navy F-4s don't really have the kind of mileage you'd expect out of an ED module. I won't squawk over the F-4E, but I can pretty much guarantee I'll be flying it in any other livery but USAF.

[LanceCriminal86]

10 minutes ago, Swordsman422 said:

I'd rather get a Navy Phantom, and specifically the F-4B and its variants, which did most of the MiG killing over Vietnam. However, the F-4E was the most widely exported variant and aside USAF would also cover Australia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Iran, Japan, Spain, Germany, and South Korea. A B would only cover USN and USMC, and the USAF evaluation copies. A J, pretty much the same and the RAF. F-4Js in FAA service were re-engined with the RR Spey and had an extended fuselage. Unfortunately this means Navy F-4s don't really have the kind of mileage you'd expect out of an ED module. I won't squawk over the F-4E, but I can pretty much guarantee I'll be flying it in any other livery but USAF.

 

I think if specific eras actually start to solidify in DCS that would help decide which versions to do for USN. The B did much of the VN workload but the J was there as well later, and extended into the Cold War. From there you have the N and S upgrades of the B and J respectively, it makes sense to do a B/N or J/S pairing due to them being reworks/upgrades of the respective airframes adding leading edge slats and making some engine changes, plus electronics/EWAR.

 

If we actually started to see VN being a thing then the B would be the ubiquitous choice, though the N upgrade I think lasted the shortest amount of time as they were retired to retain the S, which in turn left Navy service by 1986 when even the reserves finally moved to Tomcats.

 

What it would come down to, like the Tomcat and the A-6E, is documentation. How many systems can Heatblur get enough manuals and docs for, how many RIOs, pilots, avionics techs can they find and can they remember everything that's needed. It may be that one variant has better documentation than another. I'd be happy with the B and S even though they are from different base airframes. One was peak Vietnam, the other got us through the Cold War on the older carriers like Midway, Coral Sea, etc. that couldn't hold Tomcats.

 

But, HB may want to come back to something Swedish, Euro, or totally different when the Tomcat and Intruder are "done". Perhaps Leatherneck/M3 would tackle Phantoms since they were also USMC jets. We'll have to see how the Crusader turns out.

[WinterH]

What I would personally prefer is: Heatblur doing A-6E and then Draken as fylable modules, and ED continuing the F-4E that Belsimtek started (though probably 3d work would mostly be throwaway at this point with how much DCS has changed since), and adding a J or S after E as a paid extention.

 

If Heatblur does Phantom indeed, while I'd be sad to see potential Draken module becoming off the table then, at least I'd know the Phantoms are in hands of a good dev. When it comes F-4, my first choices of devs I'd like to see it from would be ED or Heatblur to be honest. Wouldn't say no to Leatherneck either but, so far they seem to prefer sticking to single variants, and are somewhat averse to idea of multiple variants of an aircraft, at least that was my feeling from listening to a few of their interviews over the years. While my personal wanted variant is F-4E Block 53 and above, any single versions would be far from doing the Phantom and Phans its due justice.

[Swordsman422]

Oh, I don't think Heatblur's going to do it, and I'd rather they went ahead with their AI-to-flyable projects. I'm saying that when/if we ever get an F-4, it's probably going to be an E regardless of my hope for otherwise.

 

I also hope that if we do get an E, we'll also get options for some of the localized modifications as animation arguments. By 1978, the IDF had modified their F-4E variant to accept countermeasures packs in the aft sparrow wells, adapter pylons for IR missiles in the forward wells, and male refueling probes similar to those seen on the later Skyhawks. I do have to admit it would be some good fun blasting around the Syria map in one of these beasts, shacking targets with an AGM-142 Popeye.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Swordsman422

[Bremspropeller]

From a bang-per-buck and useability standpoint, a late E is probably the way to go (and thus the most likely), but I'd certainly prefer the colourful Navy/ Marines birds.

I mean, come on, TOPGUN!

 

5 hours ago, WinterH said:

and adding a J or S after E as a paid extention.

 

I don't think this would happen - as much as I'd like the idea. The naval birds are sufficiently different to warrant a new module altogether.

Maybe at a discount for prior members of the Spook-Knighthood.

[LanceCriminal86]

Considering how much Tomcat documentation has been shredded, forgotten, etc. I think the Phantom will come down to "whichever variant has the most documentation", no matter the developer. While the E does offer opportunities to use export variants the amounts of modifications made by each of the big export users would be staggering to try and model as one jet.

 

I mean there has to be a point at which some extrapolations are made to fill in gaps, but I know the study sim crowd hate to think of it. Sadly, that means most of what we want will be truly inaccessible at this level of simulation. Case in point the whole PTID situation, our era cats SHOULD have it. But, there just isn't enough out there to backfill all the symbology, sub menus, etc. because they're either in manuals that are not released to the public, they were shredded as Grumman or whoever did the integrations and digital bus stuff closed up shop, or the stuff that is around only covers a small portion of it. I wish we could get to a point where starting from what is available and "filling the blanks" with personal accounts or at least with similar systems could be accepted by developers and consumers until better documents arrive. Hell make it an "unofficial" addon with a big honking disclaimer that it's not up to HB's standards yet. At this point it's no less historical than late 90s Bs and As with lantirns and old fishbowls.

 

But I digress. At the LEAST, hopefully one of these folks who keep teasing Phantom mods can get some AI F-4B or F-4J models in that can be painted up as N/S, to help fill out the 80s feel. Maybe if the A-4E community team starts to release code and documents for their EFM mods can start using that to give flight models with some more feel to them.

[Swordsman422]

Agreed, I don't think that we'll see such specific mods as a Terminator, or an EJKai, or a Kurnass 2000. Those all have nation-specific avionics. But some of the external add-ons like the refueling probe or sparrow bay missile adapters or the TISEO could be reasonable with documentation and could be added as either animation arguments or loadout options. I admit I am really dreaming here. The pessimist that dominates my daily attitude insists that we'll get a single variant that reflects the typical F-4E for a single service for a given small time gap and everything else will just be represented as close as liveries will allow.

[aviation360]

I think the F-4E and F-4J or F-4S would be awesome additions to DCS and much needed when the F-8, A-7E, A-6E release and would be needed when we get the Vietnam map because to be honest a Vietnam map is inevitable, and if Heatblur did the F-4E,J or S would make such a module extremely good with their excellent Textures, model, Flight model, and AI RIO. Regardless I hope when HB is done with F-14 that they tackle the F-4 and possibly a Vietnam era Midway class ( Midway & Coral Sea) to go along with a F-4 module like they are doing with Forestall class with the F-14 module.

[Fangs Out]

And Maybe as an addition, a campaign for the F-4 and A-6E

[R. Winters]

On 2/3/2021 at 3:44 PM, QuiGon said:

 

But that doesn't include the Tornado! So how about "DCS: NATO Air Forces 1945-2020"?

 

DCS: World Air Force 1914-2020"? will include every plane that has ever been flown in Military service for every nation

[LanceCriminal86]

13 hours ago, aviation360 said:

I think the F-4E and F-4J or F-4S would be awesome additions to DCS and much needed when the F-8, A-7E, A-6E release and would be needed when we get the Vietnam map because to be honest a Vietnam map is inevitable, and if Heatblur did the F-4E,J or S would make such a module extremely good with their excellent Textures, model, Flight model, and AI RIO. Regardless I hope when HB is done with F-14 that they tackle the F-4 and possibly a Vietnam era Midway class ( Midway & Coral Sea) to go along with a F-4 module like they are doing with Forestall class with the F-14 module.

 

Lol inevitable? How many years has DCS had both an F-86 and Mig-15 and yet Korea is still extremely absent from anyone's, particularly ED's, roadmap?

 

What DCS needs is actual focus, structure around collective modules representing eras and conflicts.

[aviation360]

10 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

 

Lol inevitable? How many years has DCS had both an F-86 and Mig-15 and yet Korea is still extremely absent from anyone's, particularly ED's, roadmap?

 

What DCS needs is actual focus, structure around collective modules representing eras and conflicts.

A Korea map for only two planes? With The A-7E, F-8, and A-6 modules coming and a F-4 coming idk when a Vietnam map is going to be more justified due to the MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21, F-5E, and Uh-1 and the A-4E mod the demand from the community for a Vietnam is high, and with that amount of official modules that we have that have seen combat in Vietnam and more modules coming that have seen combat in Vietnam makes the map Inevitable, a map being inevitable dosen’t mean it’s been announced it means it is going to be announced in a few years by someone, a Vietnam will come to DCS when nobody knows but it will come in the future making it inevitable 

[Harlikwin]

15 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

What DCS needs is actual focus, structure around collective modules representing eras and conflicts.

 

Yeah, entirely this. 

 

Though at the moment we have 2 pretty decent maps for it, Syria and PG. I mean, really the Syria map is basically relevant for the WW2 planeset (1948 war) to modern day.

 

The main issue is that the plane set depending on the era is pretty grim, but emblematic of the overall plane set problems in DCS. 

Syria Map:

Modern Era. Sure the Viper fits Israel great, and maybe you can get something from FC3 F15's or Mig29's but its really unbalanced conflict in that case.    

80's: Still pretty grim, again, Vipers and F15's but the ones we have are too modern for the most part. Mig21 kinda fits. Will be better with the mig23, but really no blue modules fit.

70's: Well, the syrians operated Mig21's vs non existant F4's and Mirages. 

60's: Same issue as the 70's

50's: LOL

40's: I guess spitfires and 109's kinda fit

 

PG map

Its a little bit better here, since the IRAF runs the F5E and F14A. But a big hole is still the F4. Gulf states, well you got the mirage2000 and F16 on that end. And if you throw a CV group in a place for F18's and F14b's.

 

But really the F4 is a gaping hole in the planest since it was used by everyone over the course of the whole cold war. Mig wise, if we get the 23 and 29 that covers the 70's and 80's decently for red, we just need some actual bluefor modules from that era.

 

TBH, extending that map to cover a bit or Iraq and Kuwait would do alot for it, but I doubt its gonna happen. But with an F4, iran iraq air war could be pretty decently done.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Uxi]

Definitely.  A Koreas map badly needed for F-86. Would be quite desirable for modern scenarios,  too. MiG-19P

 

Same with a Vietnam map for F-4 along with an appropriate model of MiG-21 (PFL?).  

 

Would be nice to see an integrated development approach shared with the third parties, maps and adversary aircraft. F/A-18C choosing lot 20 is different era from the HB F-14, for example...