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MiG-23 MLA what is it's planned weapons capabilities?


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On 5/25/2021 at 4:07 PM, Harlikwin said:

Its gonna have 

R60M's

R23R/T

R24R/T

 

And then AG ordnance.

 

As long as I can do a bit of everything... While I doubt it will have TV guided bombs or rockets and no laser guided weapons... Because that is what the MiG-27 is for.  

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On 5/25/2021 at 10:05 AM, TotenDead said:

R-23 capabilities from MiG-23 manual
Yes-yes, video is made for WT, but it still can be useful

 

 

 

Interesting numbers. Like example R-60 has 35 degrees per second tracking when AIM-9J has only 16.5 degrees per second, telling a lot about how agile the R-60 is.

The range values shows that R-23 and R-24 are matching the performance that AIM-7 offers, and offering the "silent attack" capability with the IRST makes it great option for stealthy approaches with support of gci. 

 R-24 having full 2 seconds longer burn time gives nice advantage to intercept AIM-7 launcher sooner and so on save itself if challenging. 

As well that +/- 1.3 degree seeker FOV makes things interesting considering flare behavior, as if you get it to track flare and not find the fighter anymore, missile will get lost. But same time missile doesn't see flares so easily further distance from the target. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Hodo said:

As long as I can do a bit of everything... While I doubt it will have TV guided bombs or rockets and no laser guided weapons... Because that is what the MiG-27 is for.  

 

I think it will have Kh-23's for guided, but I think mostly dumb weapons otherwise, unless we get a BN variant. 

 

I mean really, in terms of capabilities weapons wise, just take a look at the 29 which is very similar just rename a few missiles. 

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14 hours ago, Hodo said:

While I doubt it will have TV guided bombs or rockets and no laser guided weapons... Because that is what the MiG-27 is for.  

I would think S-5s, probably S-8s too, and 250kg dumb/cluster bombs. I hear it will also get Kh-23 manually guided missile.

 

Edit: I wouldn't expect anything other than being a novelty from Kh-23 though. Same deal as Rb 05A on the Viggen, I find this guidance even less practical than "guide it with the whole plane" kinda deal as in MiG-21 + Kh-66, at least so in DCS. Also some aircraft needed a guidance pod for this missile I think, but I also recall some MiG-23 versions having it integrated in a small fairing on one of the wing gloves. Don't know which one will be the case with MLA we are getting.


Edited by WinterH

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8 hours ago, WinterH said:

I would think S-5s, probably S-8s too, and 250kg dumb/cluster bombs. I hear it will also get Kh-23 manually guided missile.

 

Edit: I wouldn't expect anything other than being a novelty from Kh-23 though. Same deal as Rb 05A on the Viggen, I find this guidance even less practical than "guide it with the whole plane" kinda deal as in MiG-21 + Kh-66, at least so in DCS. Also some aircraft needed a guidance pod for this missile I think, but I also recall some MiG-23 versions having it integrated in a small fairing on one of the wing gloves. Don't know which one will be the case with MLA we are getting.

 

 

I yeah pretty sure on S-5/S-8 other unguided stuff.
 

My foggy memory of how the GROM on the 23 works that you basically steer the hud cursor onto the target and hold it there till it hits, so more like SACLOS rather than MCLOS (i.e. how the AS10 works on the Su25A, not sure if its stabilized like that though). The Mig21 mode for it doesn't really work correctly true to RL from what I've been told, and even then in that case its pretty specious that our 21 even has it. 


Edited by Harlikwin

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Just now, Harlikwin said:

 

My understanding on the GROM on the 23 is that you basically steer the hud cursor onto the target and hold it there till it hits, so more like SACLOS rather than MCLOS (i.e. how the AS10 works on the Su25A, not sure if its stabilized like that though). The Mig21 mode for it doesn't really work correctly true to RL from what I've been told, and even then in that case its pretty specious that it even has it. 

I think does mostly work correctish on MiG-21 apart from it not really belonging on the Bis variant at all. If 23 works like that indeed, I'd be happy to see that. But I think it really worked more akin to Bullpup and RB 05A: pilot basically steered the missile. Which is a method I never could come to enjoy 😛

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24 minutes ago, WinterH said:

I think does mostly work correctish on MiG-21 apart from it not really belonging on the Bis variant at all. If 23 works like that indeed, I'd be happy to see that. But I think it really worked more akin to Bullpup and RB 05A: pilot basically steered the missile. Which is a method I never could come to enjoy 😛

 

No you can't "lock" or stabilize it on the 21 which ours does IIRC from what I've heard from people who know way more about it than I do. Similarly IIRC (I might not) for the 23/grom, the ASP has "cursor" you put on the target and hold there and the missile goes there but you have to hold the cursor on tgt as its not stabilized.

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26 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

No you can't "lock" or stabilize it on the 21 which ours does IIRC from what I've heard from people who know way more about it than I do.

Yeah that one I've always been suspicious of but never seen it conclusively debunked. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say "therefore it must be correct", like said, it seemed iffy to me too.

 

But I almost never used it with ground lock since the beginning. To me guiding wherever the plane points method always been the better choice. But even then, I think it is probably too accurate in DCS, that's the part that I mean with "correctish". I am not sure those old radar beams would still be sharp/coherent at those distances. But that's just a gut feeling on my part, rather than knowledge.

That said, the method of "point the plane to point the missile" is how it worked indeed as far as I know. And I personally prefer even that guidance method over the "let's fly a missile while flying a plane, in separate directions" method 😛

 

Do you have sources for Kh-23 or Kh-23M being guided similarly to later Kh-25? I'd be rather happy if that's really possible in MiG-23 TBH!

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32 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Yeah that one I've always been suspicious of but never seen it conclusively debunked. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say "therefore it must be correct", like said, it seemed iffy to me too.

 

But I almost never used it with ground lock since the beginning. To me guiding wherever the plane points method always been the better choice. But even then, I think it is probably too accurate in DCS, that's the part that I mean with "correctish". I am not sure those old radar beams would still be sharp/coherent at those distances. But that's just a gut feeling on my part, rather than knowledge.

That said, the method of "point the plane to point the missile" is how it worked indeed as far as I know. And I personally prefer even that guidance method over the "let's fly a missile while flying a plane, in separate directions" method 😛

 

Do you have sources for Kh-23 or Kh-23M being guided similarly to later Kh-25? I'd be rather happy if that's really possible in MiG-23 TBH!

 

There was discord discussion with the dev a few months ago and thats roughly how he explained it, unless I misinterpreted what he was saying. IIRC that is what the cuban migs in Angola used at some point.


Edited by Harlikwin

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Well, followed up that conversation on the KH23, turns out its MCLOS, though the later ones were stabilized. They were however SACLOS on the Su-24. 

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It's MCLOS. The confusion probably came from descriptions of employment (manoeuvring so the missile is in the gunsight, then using said gunsight to correct it to fly straight, basically using the aircraft as a reference).

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  • 7 months later...

Air-to-ground should be able to carry:

- Up to four 500kg bombs in overload

- Up to sixteen 100kg bombs

 - Up to four S-24 240mm rockets

- Two to four rocket pods (four UB32 with 64xS-5 57mm rockets total - I'm not sure if or how many B-8 S-8 80mm rocket pods our variant can carry though)

- Possibly 2xSPPU-22 20mm gun pods *edit* Probably UPK-23-250 pods (SPPU were used on Su-17 around the same time though, so uncertain).

- Possibly 2xKh-23

Note: In most cases the aircraft flew with half of these weapons to avoid degrading performance and to allow it to retain air-to-air missiles).

One thing I wonder about - did the ML ever carry the tandem 2x250kg MER on the inner wing hardpoints? I know the Mig-23BN and Mig-27K received them, but I was wondering if some of the ML (e.g. in export?) also carried them. The upside of this rack is that it allows carrying four bombs while retaining air-to-air missiles.

If anyone has more information on whether the MLA can carry the SPPU gun-pods - I'd love to hear it. It'd be a lot of fun to engage in some 800km/h nape of the earth close air support against light targets. Overall it should be more efficient than rocket pods for some tasks - assuming one can make multiple passes.

 

On 6/11/2021 at 3:37 AM, WinterH said:

Edit: I wouldn't expect anything other than being a novelty from Kh-23 though. Same deal as Rb 05A on the Viggen, I find this guidance even less practical than "guide it with the whole plane" kinda deal as in MiG-21 + Kh-66, at least so in DCS. Also some aircraft needed a guidance pod for this missile I think, but I also recall some MiG-23 versions having it integrated in a small fairing on one of the wing gloves. Don't know which one will be the case with MLA we are getting.

Hey! If you don't have anything else, even a simple guided missile is useful. One makes do with what one has!

 

Speaking of which - didn't some Mig-23ML variants eventually get upgrades for the R-73 missile? Going in the other direction - did the ML export variants ever carry the R-3R? It'd be great to have the R-3R and K-13M missiles as options for us masochists. They also might provide a fairer fight for the F-4E, F-8, and Viggen than the R-60 would.


Edited by Avimimus
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1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

Hey! If you don't have anything else, even a simple guided missile is useful. One makes do with what one has!

I mean, yes, but practically speaking, I'd sooner pick a couple of S-24s myself 😛 any accuracy gain with Kh-23 is arguable/marginal, S-24s can have a surprising range as well, and unlike the Kh-23, you can fire them and immediately turn back, thus, they are fire and forget, and more advanced! 😛 😄

But yeah, as I've said, it can be interesting to play around with as a novelty of course.

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

didn't some Mig-23ML variants eventually get upgrades for the R-73 missile?

That was the MLD, the succeeding, and final variant. MLA should be able to employ R-23 and R-24, both R and T versions, R-60 and R-60M, and most likely later Atoll variants like R-13M/M1.

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

They also might provide a fairer fight for the F-4E

Not sure, I think a later 70s or 80s F-4E can most likely employ better, all aspect Sidewinders, at the very least AIM-9P5 should be an option. But yeah, if Atoll variants are actual options it would make it more flexible. And Viggen has RB74, equivalent of AIM-9L, considerably better than R-60M I'd say 🙂

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The Dev has mentioned it will have the Kh-23, as to how useful it will be... Up for debate. 

 

As for period AAM's it was an interesting placeholder time wise, the MLA came out in 78 IIRC, so right at that moment it would have been pretty good against the rear aspect winders everyone was still using, but by the early 80's when you actually had 9L's ariving at units it would have had to fight 9L armed fighters and that is a far superior missile to the R60m. Then again, by then the MLD was out and had R73's. So back and forth. Plus even in the early 80's the bulk of nato partners still were using older sidewinders. 

 


Edited by Harlikwin

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  • 2 months later...

Well, RAZBAM's own MiG-19 has the R-3S, so I don't see why this one wouldn't get it. Kh-23 would be interesting, though it's an MCLOS missile, so it'll be hard to use. The one we have in the MiG-21 is the Kh-66, a beamrider version of it. MCLOS was actually an improvement over that one, a MiG-21 guiding the Grom would be a sitting duck for the guns on the ground.

Most of the unguided ordnance is already in DCS, and has been since Ka-50, which can carry most of that (except S-24 and FAB-100, but that's available for FC3 birds). I do hope we'll get the ZB-500 when ED implements napalm.

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Manual tables would be used for bombs on the MiG-23M.

For ML, it's essentially the same as using ASP-17 on the Su-25 (and then some - as the implementation on the 25 is missing the air to air modes). Full CCIP and CCRP is included. For air to air there should be manually ranged gyro sight and (with radar lock) range and tracking-rate compensated sight (essentially MiG-29 style aerial gunnery, just using radar instead of laser).

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On 4/14/2022 at 4:02 AM, Koty said:

Manual tables would be used for bombs on the MiG-23M.

For ML, it's essentially the same as using ASP-17 on the Su-25 (and then some - as the implementation on the 25 is missing the air to air modes). Full CCIP and CCRP is included. For air to air there should be manually ranged gyro sight and (with radar lock) range and tracking-rate compensated sight (essentially MiG-29 style aerial gunnery, just using radar instead of laser).

Ah ok , understand. Thanks a lot for the info  Koty!

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/10/2021 at 10:27 PM, Harlikwin said:

 

I think it will have Kh-23's for guided, but I think mostly dumb weapons otherwise, unless we get a BN variant. 

 

I mean really, in terms of capabilities weapons wise, just take a look at the 29 which is very similar just rename a few missiles. 

the BN would also have just Kh-23/23M for guided weapons.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 2:10 PM, Snappy said:

Ah ok , understand. Thanks a lot for the info  Koty!

You're welcome 🙂

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 4/2/2022 at 5:07 AM, Stratos said:

Hope we will see all those weapons, I see some interesting combinations like the UPK Gun pods, the R-3S or all those FAB-100 bombs!

That is assuming the weapon control system allows mixed payloads, rather than limiting us to one unguided weapon type at a time.

Honestly though, with only four relevant hardpoints... we'll usually probably want four rocket pods or four bombs... or two rocket pods/bombs and two self-defense missiles... so it is likely much less of an issue than it would be on other aircraft. Also, it has an internal gun (unlike the AJS-37 which frustratingly can't carry gunpods alongside rockets or bombs - only missiles).


Edited by Avimimus
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Think the dynamic between existing/upcoming 3rd gen fighters will be quite interesting.

23MLA will be by far the best in BVR if Mirage F1 doesn't get Super 530, but it'll still be better if it does get that missile, just with a less enormous gap. While F-4E can get AIM-7Fs which would be fairly equal with R-24s, MiG will still be a lot superior in BVR with a better radar, actual look down capability, IRST, and R-24T as an option.

Now this part will be controversial but 😛 in a close in dogfight though other aircraft will have the upper hand as 23 will imo be hard to get the best out of in dogfighting. Maybe not Viggen because of its huge AoA limitations and huge deltas becoming a set of sails/airbrakes after the first 180 degrees of a turn :p.

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5 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

The MLA will have the edge on the initial engagement being high and fast - literally being capable of Mach 2 with a full combat load - but it does only get two R24's while the Phantom can carry 4 AIM-7's in even the standard config. But whether the F-4E gets the 7F is anyones guess. A future F-4J/S could also close the gap a little more.

Phantom will likely have 7E all the way through 7M. I'd say a 7F will be a staple missile for it.

 

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