[FIXED] JF-17's radar not following ED values regarding Notch closure rate (Latest Closed Beta)

[Old Sauveur]

Dear Devs, @L0op8ack

 

First off, i wanted to thank you for fixing everything i reported previously ! It works flawlessly.

 

However in the current Closed Beta JF-17's Radar is performing much better than ANY radar in DCS.

ED values regarding notching is about 40 knots closure rate below 5 nm and 80 knots above 5nm. Which is a decided constant as far as i know.

JF-17's Radar values are about 12 knots closure rate below 5 nm and 25 knots above 5nm.

 

Is this on purpose ?

Find track attached.

 

Thank you

Best Regards

TAW_Savior

JF-17 RADAR Below 5nm notch gate 12 knots.trk JF-17 RADAR Above 10nm notch gate 25 knots.trk

Edited January 27, 2022 by uboats

[Blinky.ben]

Does anyone know how to delete a post I didn’t wish to submit?

Edited January 23, 2021 by Blinky.ben

[GGTharos]

A 40 kts notch gate would run the risk of a lot of false contacts, 25 would be guaranteeing it.   A 40kts notch gate is a 'narrow' gate already.  12 and 25 are far too low - you might end up seeing every leaf blowing in the wind (source:  I've actually seen it do that, a screen full of contacts because the gain was turned too high and the motion filter too low).

Now, we were looking at the ground and not air contacts but the point remains.  The ground will give you back returns with a significant doppler distribution and it's hard to do much about it - this is why 40-50kt is a narrow notch gate.

[Blinky.ben]

5 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

A 40 kts notch gate would run the risk of a lot of false contacts, 25 would be guaranteeing it.   A 40kts notch gate is a 'narrow' gate already.  12 and 25 are far too low - you might end up seeing every leaf blowing in the wind (source:  I've actually seen it do that, a screen full of contacts because the gain was turned too high and the motion filter too low).

Now, we were looking at the ground and not air contacts but the point remains.  The ground will give you back returns with a significant doppler distribution and it's hard to do much about it - this is why 40-50kt is a narrow notch gate.

It’s not only Doppler that’s removes ground clutter in most search radars. Most of it is removed due to anti clutter circuits. Your statements not wrong but not exactly correct there’s more to it. For example FTC is a common one to remove clouds and weather, CFAR is good for setting a threshold for ground clutter and detecting something not typical ground tree clutter.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Blinky.ben

[dundun92]

3 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

It’s not only Doppler that’s removes ground clutter in most search radars. Most of it is removed due to anti clutter circuits. Your statements not wrong but not exactly correct there’s more to it. For example FTC is a common one to remove clouds and weather, CFAR is good for setting a threshold for ground clutter and detecting something not typical ground tree clutter.

 

You arent gonna remove all the clutter like that though, you still need a notch filter. Theres a reason its in the 50-100kt range for most 4th gen fighter radars. (F-15, F-18, Su-27, etc)

[Blinky.ben]

2 hours ago, dundun92 said:

You arent gonna remove all the clutter like that though, you still need a notch filter. Theres a reason its in the 50-100kt range for most 4th gen fighter radars. (F-15, F-18, Su-27, etc)

Actually it can remove all the clutter completely but you’ll also never find a contact either as it will be hidden under the threshold. Which is why we have both cause one CANNOT work without the other effectively.
 

but I doubt DCS considers anti-clutter circuits and just try and replicate Doppler. The radars we use irl which also are Doppler radars are not so automated and don’t need to have speed gates and I doubt you’ll ever find a anti-submarine radar with any such gates. Cause the operator will determine what clutters circuits will be used and threshold with Doppler to determine the target. But we’re not talking about these kind of radars which I understand but all I’m trying to point out is that Doppler IS NOT everything like most people seem to think it is.

 

How do we know what type of speed gates Chinese, Pakistani, Russian aircraft utilise? Or does DCS just use a value for everything? I only ask this cause

 

1. I know nothing about coding and have no idea what values their using between modules 

 

2. There is a lot of drum beating over the JF not working exactly like the western world or not following values western aircraft have as pointed out in the title of this thread. This isn’t a western aircraft and information is very lock tight in these countries so why MUST a eastern plane act like a western?

 

Old Saucer as a DCS beta tester has been working very hard to find any anything that the JF can do that another modules can’t, but he’s not on the F-16 forums saying that the F-18 can’t do that so the F-16 shouldn’t either. Cause their comparing the F modules to documents not other modules so the JF shouldn’t be different. Now I’m not saying anything pointed out is incorrect cause no one can prove that it is or isn’t except Deka making the best educated guess cause again good luck finding that open source information, but we keep comparing this jet the American built. So we might as well be demanding the Su-27 starts becoming more like the F-15 also. I also believe there is a overwhelming amount of biased opinions towards this aircraft so it gets a very unfair amount of scrutiny. Meanwhile drums remain fairly quiet on the ED aircraft unless it need to be buffed.

[will-]

1 minute ago, Blinky.ben said:

2. There is a lot of drum beating over the JF not working exactly like the western world or not following values western aircraft have as pointed out in the title of this thread. This isn’t a western aircraft and information is very lock tight in these countries so why MUST a eastern plane act like a western?

 

Old Saucer as a DCS beta tester has been working very hard to find any anything that the JF can do that another modules can’t, but he’s not on the F-16 forums saying that the F-18 can’t do that so the F-16 shouldn’t either. Cause their comparing the F modules to documents not other modules so the JF shouldn’t be different. Now I’m not saying anything pointed out is incorrect cause no one can prove that it is or isn’t except Deka making the best educated guess cause again good luck finding that open source information, but we keep comparing this jet the American built. So we might as well be demanding the Su-27 starts becoming more like the F-15 also. I also believe there is a overwhelming amount of biased opinions towards this aircraft so it gets a very unfair amount of scrutiny. Meanwhile drums remain fairly quiet on the ED aircraft unless it need to be buffed.

 

he clearly states why, i guess u just missed it: However in the current Closed Beta JF-17's Radar is performing much better than ANY radar in DCS

[Blinky.ben]

58 minutes ago, will- said:

 

he clearly states why, i guess u just missed it: However in the current Closed Beta JF-17's Radar is performing much better than ANY radar in DCS

So if the F-16 was better then any other radar you’ll demand it gets nurfed without documentation? I’m not saying don’t point out every single flaw, but I am saying back it up and just cause another module can’t that’s just being biased. Have evidence just like ANY other module does. The JF seems to be the only module where it’s excepted to say it wrong without documented evidence.
 

im also not arguing the radar needs tweaking I myself through a educated guess would think a off the shelf radar wouldn’t be better then some of the most advanced fighter aircraft radars. But I’ll speak up when I can prove it. Not cause I have a favourite module and can’t stand the thought the JF might be better at it.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Blinky.ben

[Old Sauveur]

Well, i'm afraid you miss understood what i stated in the first place.

As you took your time to take part in this thread, i will just say this. I asked DEKA & ED for their opinion on this matter nothing more.

I do not work with favouritism and i don't "attack" particular planes.

All i'm providing in this thread is a fact and a not judgment

Since you aren't part of the closed beta testing team you may not be aware of what i'm reporting for other modules, & i don't blame you for it.

 

ED values regarding notching is about 40 knots closure rate below 5 nm and 80 knots above 5nm.

You can read this in the forum posted by Chizh, ED dev.

These values are used by every radar in the game.

Also much of what have been explained in this thread are not Modelled at all in DCS.

 

Thank you

Have all a great day

1 hour ago, Blinky.ben said:

How do we know what type of speed gates Chinese, Pakistani, Russian aircraft utilise? Or does DCS just use a value for everything? I only ask this cause

 

1. I know nothing about coding and have no idea what values their using between modules 

 

2. There is a lot of drum beating over the JF not working exactly like the western world or not following values western aircraft have as pointed out in the title of this thread. This isn’t a western aircraft and information is very lock tight in these countries so why MUST a eastern plane act like a western?

 

Old Saucer as a DCS beta tester has been working very hard to find any anything that the JF can do that another modules can’t, but he’s not on the F-16 forums saying that the F-18 can’t do that so the F-16 shouldn’t either. Cause their comparing the F modules to documents not other modules so the JF shouldn’t be different. Now I’m not saying anything pointed out is incorrect cause no one can prove that it is or isn’t except Deka making the best educated guess cause again good luck finding that open source information, but we keep comparing this jet the American built. So we might as well be demanding the Su-27 starts becoming more like the F-15 also. I also believe there is a overwhelming amount of biased opinions towards this aircraft so it gets a very unfair amount of scrutiny. Meanwhile drums remain fairly quiet on the ED aircraft unless it need to be buffed.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Old Sauveur

[Blinky.ben]

6 minutes ago, Old Sauveur said:

Well, i'm afraid you miss understood what i stated in the first place.

As you took your time to take part in this thread, i will just say this. I asked DEKA & ED for their opinion on this matter nothing more.

I do not work with favouritism and i don't "attack" particular planes.

All i'm providing in this thread is a fact and a not judgment

Since you aren't part of the closed beta testing team you may not be aware of what i'm reporting for other modules, & i don't blame you for it.

 

ED values regarding notching is about 40 knots closure rate below 5 nm and 80 knots above 5nm.

You can read this in the forum posted by Chizh, ED dev.

These values are used by every radar in the game.

Also much of what have been explained in this thread are not Modelled at all in DCS.

 

Thank you

Have all a great day

 

 

Like I said in my other post I’m not saying your incorrect in any of your reports cause again I don’t know the first thing about coding. I also could have explained it better when I used you as an example. It wasn’t meant to sound like you specifically don’t report on other modules. Was more pointing out people don’t report on other modules just cause of how it compares to another module. (Shouldn’t have used your name) Except that’s clearly the case here lol Apologies for that.
 

I more hi jacked your thread (apologies) to point out a issue I still believe is embedded in DCS towards the JF.

[Old Sauveur]

Not to worry, No problem

 

[GGTharos]

5 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

So if the F-16 was better then any other radar you’ll demand it gets nurfed without documentation?

 

This has already happened - although at least some documentation exists.  This has to do with F-16 excessive radar range, same with the hornet.

 

5 hours ago, Blinky.ben said:

I’m not saying don’t point out every single flaw, but I am saying back it up and just cause another module can’t that’s just being biased. Have evidence just like ANY other module does. The JF seems to be the only module where it’s excepted to say it wrong without documented evidence.

 

And where do  you find documentation on the JF-17?  The best evidence is to see what's being done with radars of similar technology level and why.  The JF-17 isn't magical, it's going going to have half the narrow notch gate of other radars IRL.

 

Consider not making unfounded accusations.

[Mad_Shell]

Up! In the upcoming JF17 changelog it's written "AA radar speed gate low/high toggle (used for low speed target filter)". I guess we'll see if it brings the speed gate in line with other modules.

[DSplayer]

13 hours ago, Mad_Shell said:

Up! In the upcoming JF17 changelog it's written "AA radar speed gate low/high toggle (used for low speed target filter)". I guess we'll see if it brings the speed gate in line with other modules.

Where did you see this changelog?

[Mustang25]

37 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

Where did you see this changelog?

 

[Mad_Shell]

Anyone could test if the speed gates have changed? The new open beta changelog states "AA radar speed gate low/high toggle (used for low speed target filter)"