conjecture The MiG-29 won't happen

[ResonantCard1]

Let me explain why:

 

First of all, Russia. Their laws have already blocked the Su-27 and the BS3 from being made and I don't see any reason why the MiG-29 would be allowed to be made in the first place. Yes, it's older and it's basically MiG-23 tech, but it's still a MiG-29 and surely has stuff that Russia keeps using nowadays and they wouldn't want to have it being seen publically. Even if the laws don't kill the project, it'll be Russia's own complex what will kill it. If the MiG-29 is made in full fidelity, it'll be seen that it was just an overhyped plane during the Cold War, and that there really isn't much to it that could make it a good plane. This is something the West has seen since the 90s with the tens of MiG-29s shot down by US aircraft, but now it'd be clear to literally everyone and the "But it's FC3!" excuse wouldn't be applicable anymore. To save themselves the embarrasment, Russia will probably block the release of the MiG-29 even if by law it could be made. We also have no reason to think the laws won't become more strict in the future.
 

Secondly, the Apache. Yes I know it may seem unrelated, but if ED's roadmap for this year is to be believed, the Mi-24 and the Apache are going to be dropping sooner rather than later. This is pretty much worst case scenario for the Mi-24, because people wanting an Attack Helicopter will by default go for the most capable, most modern, with better "bang-for-the-buck" ratio option. Which will undoubtly be the Apache and not the Hind. The Hind will be left for the enthusiasts and the collectors. You can argue the Mi-24 is a very different beast, and you're right. It is much worse in all the regards that count, seeing how its systems are primitive, its weapons not very good, and it can barely hover. All this for the "advantage" of being able to carry troops, which in reality was never made because it severely reduces your weapon carrying capacity. The truth is that the Hind is an attack helicopter, and in that field it's competing against the Apache. For the first time in DCS, ED will have 2 "direct counterparts" to compare in terms of sales and profitability. And there's simply no chance for the Hind to sell better than the Apache. In fact I'd say the Hind is going to flop massively. Most people is more attracted to the Apache because it's the definition of an attack helicopter, it's used by their home country (mostly the US) and it's a clear powerhouse that has served in many wars, saved many lives and generally has become a legend. Meanwhile the Hind is known for being shot down with an LGB by an F-15E, and I guess that's more or less it. Many were shot down in Afghanistan, while few if any Apaches have been even damaged in that same conflict. So the capabilities are definitely on the Apache's side and the popularity is on the Apache's side. These 2 combined will lead to the Apache selling way better than the Hind, and that's important. ED will see that spending time and resources making Redfor modules is simply not worth it. Why bother making a module like the Hind when you can make an Apache and have it sell 10x more? Similarly, why bother making the MiG-29 and have it sell badly when compared with the Hornet or the Viper? Why not just making an F-15C instead? In terms of systems it's more complex than the MiG-29, sure, but it's no Hornet so it should take less resources. And it's a damn F-15C so it's definitely going to sell lots. So really, why bother with the MiG-29? There's no reason aside from "PVP balance" and that reason alone is enough to *not* make it, because as per ED, the vast majority of the playerbase plays SP exclusively, so the point is moot. This is also a simulator, not a game. Balance is not something we should be aiming for, because real life is never balanced. So yeah, there's no actual reason to make the MiG-29. All the people asking for it are probably just a very vocal minority, and you can't rely on those minorities to determine what you should or shouldn't be making. 

 

The MiG-29 is just not going to happen, there's only 1 reason to make it and in the business world it holds no weight whatsoever: "we want to make it". ED is a business, profitability is their main goal and it has been confirmed by Chizh, so the MiG-29 will eventually be dropped. I succesfully predicted that the Apache would be made and it would be a Longbow, I succesfully predicted that the BS3 was going to be cancelled, and I'm sure I'll be proven right on this one too.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by ResonantCard1

[KAKTYC_11]

BAN ! 

Edited January 24, 2021 by KAKTYC_11

[LooseSeal]

I'm just going to comment specifically on one thing you mentioned and leave the rest for more informed people than I - The Hind will sell and it will sell well. Personally, I'll be getting both the Hind and Apache. They're completely different beasts. Both have their own magic. The Apache, well, come on... it's just cool as hell. But the Hind? It's an icon. Who wouldn't want it!?

 

Now that's just me... but I suspect I'll be far from the only one getting both.

[ResonantCard1]

1 minute ago, LooseSeal said:

I'm just going to comment specifically on one thing you mentioned and leave the rest for more informed people than I - The Hind will sell and it will sell well. Personally, I'll be getting both the Hind and Apache. They're completely different beasts. Both have their own magic. The Apache, well, come on... it's just cool as hell. But the Hind? It's an icon. Who wouldn't want it!?

 

Now that's just me... but I suspect I'll be far from the only one getting both.

I very much doubt it'll sell well, specially in comparison with the Apache. Just look at the MiG-19 and F-14 situation for example. NOBODY owns the MiG-19, meanwhile the F-14 is almost as universal as the Hornet. And the Mi-24, how is it an icon? It's just a fat helicopter from the enemy side, how can that be iconic?

 

[Mike_Romeo]

2 minutes ago, ResonantCard1 said:

how can that be iconic?

 

Its very icon outside the US. More countries fly the Hind than the Apache.

[LooseSeal]

1 minute ago, ResonantCard1 said:

 And the Mi-24, how is it an icon? It's just a fat helicopter from the enemy side, how can that be iconic?

 

 

I've said my piece and I stick with it, but I suspect you're going to get a few other people perfectly willing to answer your question soon enough.

 

So... basically what you're saying is when the Typhoon comes out, nobody will fly any other fighter anymore because we all just gravitate to the most modern and most capable?? That really is quite a strange, and naive, way of thinking about people who play this sim.

[ResonantCard1]

Just now, LooseSeal said:

 

I've said my piece and I stick with it, but I suspect you're going to get a few other people perfectly willing to answer your question soon enough.

 

So... basically what you're saying is when the Typhoon comes out, nobody will fly any other fighter anymore because we all just gravitate to the most modern and most capable?? That really is quite a strange, and naive, way of thinking about people who play this sim.

The reason why the Hornet is the most popular module isn't just that everyone loves it. It's by far the most capable module at the moment, and it will still be until Razbam's F-15E reaches a playable state. The Eurofighter is a good *fighter* not a good multirole. People will gravitate towards the most capable thing in general, which the Eurofighter isn't. The F-15E will be the king if ED doesn't release their F-35 soon. And yes, I'm sure many people in DCS plays the modules that they like, but those aren't the majority of people. All I see around are Hornets, Hornets and Hornets. So there clearly has to be something else to it than just pure interest.

[Topo]

15 minutes ago, ResonantCard1 said:

And the Mi-24, how is it an icon? It's just a fat helicopter from the enemy side, how can that be iconic?

maybe we aren't all so...  "american-centric"?

[Harzach]

2 minutes ago, Topo said:

maybe we aren't all so...  "american-centric"?

 

And maybe a bunch of us thought the Hind was really cool when we saw it in the original Red Dawn or Rambo III...

[Johnny Dioxin]

Shouldn't this be in the "Chit Chat" section? because it looks to me like gossip composed mainly of assumptions. In fact, it actually looks more like baiting, but that's for others to decide...

[erniedaoage]

[EasyEB]

20 minutes ago, Harzach said:

Hind was really cool when we saw it in the original Red Dawn or Rambo III...

Oh my sweet summer child.

[ak12546]

I will not argue that the Apache is a more capable attack helicopter than the hind, I will say that the hind is just as renowned as the apache. I have no hard data to support this: I think the hind has been in more movies than the Apache. Probably the most important bit: ED has all of their sales data on hand. I would imagine they know more than most what their customer base is buying and using. To consciously make a decision that goes against the well being of DCS World by using funds to develop a supposedly underselling helicopter icon does not make sense. So, either they are foolish, or they have a better grasp of the situation. Considering their success with DCS as a concept I would argue they are not foolish.

Edited January 24, 2021 by ak12546

[Skysurfer]

Yeah no. This only affects more modern stuff - a 29A or 27S can absolutely be done since the US and other NATO allies/countries literally own them and know absolutely everything about them and their missiles. ED could absolutely do a 9.12 or 9.13 29A.

[MAXsenna]

Whoa! You're glass must be empty. Mine is always full.
I'm getting the Hind for reasons stated above. And I'm sure it will sell well. Especially with the new Russian "Jester" and multicrew.
Also, I had the DI/IM Hind from the 90s. The Apache version as well. All of the Enemy Engaged releases too. I rearly flew the American birds.
I'll get the ED Apache too, eventually, but I believe the Hind will be more fun to fly. Got the Hornet, never use it. Ain't got the Tomcat or the Mig-19. Will get both but the Mig first if not together. Can't wait for the Mig-29.
Tl:Dr Rotorheads will get all of them, no matter what.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Northstar98]

Bloody hell, what a mess of absolute conjecture.

 

4 hours ago, ResonantCard1 said:

Let me explain why:

 

First of all, Russia. Their laws have already blocked the Su-27 and the BS3 from being made and I don't see any reason why the MiG-29 would be allowed to be made in the first place. Yes, it's older and it's basically MiG-23 tech, but it's still a MiG-29 and surely has stuff that Russia keeps using nowadays and they wouldn't want to have it being seen publically. Even if the laws don't kill the project, it'll be Russia's own complex what will kill it. If the MiG-29 is made in full fidelity, it'll be seen that it was just an overhyped plane during the Cold War, and that there really isn't much to it that could make it a good plane. This is something the West has seen since the 90s with the tens of MiG-29s shot down by US aircraft, but now it'd be clear to literally everyone and the "But it's FC3!" excuse wouldn't be applicable anymore.

 

The MiG-29 is early 80s, not the 90s. Compare apples to apples.

 

During the 80s, F-16s will almost exclusively be fox 2s + gun only, and BLUFOR mostly only  has the AIM-7 at best (excluding the AIM-54, though that's only on one aircraft). 

 

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To save themselves the embarrasment, Russia will probably block the release of the MiG-29 even if by law it could be made.

 

I'm sure Putin really cares about MiG-29s, variants of which Russia no longer operates, getting shot down in a video game. 

 

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Secondly, the Apache. Yes I know it may seem unrelated, but if ED's roadmap for this year is to be believed, the Mi-24 and the Apache are going to be dropping sooner rather than later. This is pretty much worst case scenario for the Mi-24, because people wanting an Attack Helicopter will by default go for the most capable, most modern, with better "bang-for-the-buck" ratio option.

 

Yep, I can confirm that nobody ever has bought the AJS-37, F-5E-3, F-14, MiG-21bis, or any of the WWII aircraft...

 

I'm sure the only modules that ever did well are the F-16CM, F/A-18C and JF-17.

 

Wait, hang on, if what you're saying is true isn't ED screwed from a business perspective? If they do a mid 2000s F-15C then that's it, there isn't any more modern US fixed wing aircraft they can do, unless you think an F-22 or an F-35 is coming any time soon? And if they are (which they aren't), they'll probably get pretty boring fast, fly like a faster airliner and hit the weapon release, only now I can see them and kill them from further away, yada yada freaking yawn.

 

Hey, maybe that's why they're doing a MiG-29 from the 80s, because in the future, they'll run out of modern BLUFOR aircraft they can do, and from then can only go older, fantastic! Maybe DCS will end up being more comprehensive after all. 

 

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Which will undoubtly be the Apache and not the Hind. The Hind will be left for the enthusiasts and the collectors.

 

Strange, I thought DCS was an enthusiast platform...

 

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You can argue the Mi-24 is a very different beast, and you're right. It is much worse in all the regards that count, seeing how its systems are primitive, its weapons not very good, and it can barely hover. All this for the "advantage" of being able to carry troops, which in reality was never made because it severely reduces your weapon carrying capacity. The truth is that the Hind is an attack helicopter, and in that field it's competing against the Apache.

 

Yes, only there's one teeny tiny thing you're missing - the Apache we're getting is early 2000s, the Hind is early 90s, though if it wasn't for a single weapons system, it would be no different from the initial 80s(?) Mil Mi-24P

 

So its actual contemporary is not the Apache, (that would be the Mi-28N for the era of our Apache) but the AH-1S/J/W (W at best).

 

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For the first time in DCS, ED will have 2 "direct counterparts" to compare in terms of sales and profitability.

 

*cough* F-5E-3 and MiG-21bis, *cough* UH-1H and Mi-8MTV2

 

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And there's simply no chance for the Hind to sell better than the Apache. In fact I'd say the Hind is going to flop massively.

 

Yeah hardly anybody is interested in it at all... 

 

I for one am way more interested in the Hind than the Apache, because the Apache (as great as it'll be and I'm almost certainly getting both), is probably gonna spend most of the time behind a tree, pop-up, see everything with it's super-duper RADAR, EO/IR systems and D/L, press the fire button 16 times and go home.

 

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Most people is more attracted to the Apache because it's the definition of an attack helicopter, it's used by their home country (mostly the US) and it's a clear powerhouse that has served in many wars, saved many lives and generally has become a legend.

 

Because the Hind definitely has none of those attributes.

 

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Meanwhile the Hind is known for being shot down with an LGB by an F-15E, and I guess that's more or less it.

 

Did it? 

 

Well, that backfired quickly.

 

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Many were shot down in Afghanistan, while few if any Apaches have been even damaged in that same conflict.

 

Since when was the Apache a part of the Soviet-Afghan war? What are you talking about?

 

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So the capabilities are definitely on the Apache's side and the popularity is on the Apache's side. These 2 combined will lead to the Apache selling way better than the Hind, and that's important. ED will see that spending time and resources making Redfor modules is simply not worth it. Why bother making a module like the Hind when you can make an Apache and have it sell 10x more?

 

Because I want to fight something, having BLUFOR with their aircraft that are 20 years newer is getting very boring, all I do is fly like an airliner, send an AMRAAM away and bugger off back. If A/G replace AMRAAM with JSOW/HARM/JDAM/SLAM.

 

If I get into a dogfight I win, even without using AIM-9X.

 

*note I pretty much am exclusively SP - so that's why I'm successful.

 

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Similarly, why bother making the MiG-29 and have it sell badly when compared with the Hornet or the Viper? Why not just making an F-15C instead?

 

How do you know it'll sell badly? Just pure conjecture based on assumed capabilities, glossing over the fact that these BLUFOR aircraft are a lot more modern and much more recent than REDFOR modules.

 

I mean, if all you care about capabilities, then well done, you've effectively nuked DCS from ever having contemporary fights that aren't WWII, as we'll probably never get contemporary REDFOR modules. At this point DCS World might as well be called renamed to: The Final Countdown, the video game; ironic as the age difference between the A6M5 and the F-14A isn't much different than what our current state is.

 

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There's no reason aside from "PVP balance" and that reason alone is enough to *not* make it, because as per ED, the vast majority of the playerbase plays SP exclusively, so the point is moot. This is also a simulator, not a game. Balance is not something we should be aiming for, because real life is never balanced. So yeah, there's no actual reason to make the MiG-29. All the people asking for it are probably just a very vocal minority, and you can't rely on those minorities to determine what you should or shouldn't be making. 

 

Are you freaking serious!!! "The point is moot", you're talking rubbish!

 

I play SP exclusively and the problem is made worse! Not only am I fighting something 20 years out of date (at the very best), but now it's flown by DCS' AI! So now not only is it outdated, it's being flown by something that is as proficient in aerial combat as a chunky fart.

 

Oh the bandit is behind me, oh well, better do infinite vertical loops until my fuel runs out, that'll shake him!

 

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The MiG-29 is just not going to happen, there's only 1 reason to make it and in the business world it holds no weight whatsoever: "we want to make it".

 

What was the reason behind making the Christen Eagle 2 or the L-39, or the MiG-15bis exactly?

 

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ED is a business, profitability is their main goal and it has been confirmed by Chizh, so the MiG-29 will eventually be dropped.

 

You think a MiG-29 won't be profitable, after all the people asking for one? Same with the Hind?

 

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I succesfully predicted that the Apache would be made and it would be a Longbow, I succesfully predicted that the BS3 was going to be cancelled, and I'm sure I'll be proven right on this one too.

 

Anything else your crystal ball can tell us?

 

 

Whoa, very ranty there, okay back to normal.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Northstar98

[ResonantCard1]

30 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

During the 80s, F-16s will almost exclusively be fox 2s + gun only, and BLUFOR mostly only has the AIM-7 at best (excluding the AIM-54, though that's only on one aircraft). 

 

However that AIM-7 is being used by the best fighter ever made, and the Tomcat was numerous enough to make those Phoenix count. Not to speak of the agility of both planes. They're legends for a reason.

 

31 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

So its actual contemporary is not the Apache, (that would be the Mi-28N for the era of our Apache) but the AH-1S/J/W (W at best).

 

Even the AH-1S/J/W is way better than the Hind. Also yes, the Mi-24P is absolutely a contemporary to the Apache because Russia itself still uses it widely.

 

33 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Yeah hardly anybody is interested in it at all... 

 

I for one am way more interested in the Hind than the Apache, because the Apache (as great as it'll be and I'm almost certainly getting both), is probably gonna spend most of the time behind a tree, pop-up, see everything with it's super-duper RADAR, EO/IR systems and D/L, press the fire button 16 times and go home.

I mean, yes it's kind of boring, but that's just because it's so good it almost fights by itself, and people loves that. They're going to be getting it just for the thought of not having to spend any effort on getting kills. There's plenty of people like that.

 

36 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Did it? 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-an-f-15e-shot-down-an-iraqi-mi-24-attack-helicopter-with-a-2000lb-laser-guided-bomb/

 

36 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Since when was the Apache a part of the Soviet-Afghan war? What are you talking about?

 

It goes by a different name now but in essence is the exact same conflict.

 

37 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Because I want to fight something, having BLUFOR with there aircraft that are 20 years newer is getting very boring, all I do is fly like an airliner, send an AMRAAM away and bugger off back. If A/G replace AMRAAM with JSOW/HARM/JDAM/SLAM.

 

If I get into a dogfight I win, even without using AIM-9X.

That's a shame because ED can't make something contemporary to what Blue has now. Even the MiG-29 9.12 is 20 to 30 years older than whatever Blue has now. And even if we had exact contemporaries they still wouldn't be a huge challenge, their radars are just now getting up to par, their missiles are still abyssmal, and their systems are still prehistoric. 

 

39 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

How do you know it'll sell badly? Just pure conjecture based on assumed capabilities, glossing over the fact that these BLUFOR aircraft are a lot more modern and much more recent than REDFOR modules.

Because that's how it is. Comparing timeframes is completely irrelevant if all you want is buy a new module. You're not going to buy a MiG-21 over the Hornet because "The MiG-21 was good for its timeframe so it has to be good for me too even if all I'm going to fight are Hornet-tier opponents". No, if you have 80 bucks to buy a module you'll buy the module that brings more to the table, otherwise it's lost money. That's why you see that many Hornets, because the Hornet is the most capable module with the most things to do. It can do everything better than the rest, so people buys it because otherwise they'd run out of things to do before considering their money has been well spent.

 

42 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

In SP exclusively not only am I fighting something 20 years out of date (at best), but now it's flown by DCS' AI! So now not only is it outdated, it's being flown by something that is as proficient in aerial combat as a chunky fart.

 

And that's a very reallistic situation you see. In Iraq that's all the US did, fight planes 20 to 40 years older flown by bad pilots. DCS brings the most reallistic combat scenarios forth, it's just that they aren't very engaging in terms of gameplay. But that's how modern air wars are.

 

43 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

You think a MiG-29 won't be profitable, after all the people asking for one? Same with the Hind?

 

Again, vocal minority. Everytime the MiG-29 comes up I see the exact same people asking for it. But everytime I see an US aircraft come up I see more and more people I don't recognize ask for it. Redfor is simply a minority in DCS, they make a lot of noise but that doesn't mean it's not a minority. 

 

44 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Anything else your crystal ball can tell us?

The Hind will show ED that the correct way to go is to keep making American modules, the MiG-29 will be cancelled, we're going to see the F-35 soon.

[lmp]

2 hours ago, ResonantCard1 said:

First of all, Russia. Their laws have already blocked the Su-27 and the BS3 from being made and I don't see any reason why the MiG-29 would be allowed to be made in the first place.

 

Their laws have blocked the BS3, I don't believe there was a statement about the Su-27?

 

Do you know what exactly is this new law and how it is worded? Without that, we can only make uneducated guesses what was and wasn't banned.

 

To the best of my knowledge, all we have to go on are ED's actions. And those are: BS3 was cancelled, Hind was not and MiG-29 was announced as planned. Rest is pure speculation.

 

2 hours ago, ResonantCard1 said:

Meanwhile the Hind is known for being shot down with an LGB by an F-15E, and I guess that's more or less it.

 

The Hind is known primarily for its service in the Afghanistan war, the even you're talking about is by comparison pretty obscure. You're trying to make it look bad, not to be objective.

 

2 hours ago, ResonantCard1 said:

Many were shot down in Afghanistan, while few if any Apaches have been even damaged in that same conflict.

 

It's hard for an aircraft to be shot down in a conflict it didn't participate in. Unless you mean the other (current) Afghanistan conflict, in which 13 Apache's were lost compared to 4 or 5 Hinds.

 

2 hours ago, ResonantCard1 said:

Why not just making an F-15C instead?

 

Cause it's less multirole. Cause it will compete with the F-15E. Cause there are already 3 "teen" fighters in the game with a fourth one on the way and more and more players are no longer thinking "I need this in my life" but rather "do I really want another one of those".

 

The "teen" fighter niche is saturated and it's time to mix things up. That's why we're getting the gunships and after the gunships - we'll get something else. Right now it looks like that something else will start with the MiG-29.

[unknown]

If i would have to choose between Hind and Apache? -> Hind for sure. But i will buy both. I think the only "looser"(sales wise) will be the OH-58 because of the AH-64 coming to DCS this year. 

Why "nobody owns the Mig-19"? I can't speak for everybody but i don't own it because of Razbam. Mirage EA phase/out of EA without being complete.....thats why i didn't bought the Harrier(glad in hindsight) and will definitely not buy the F-15E(just not interested and Razbam), to be honest after the Eurofighter there is not much interest on my side for more "blue" planes except for the A-6 and the Tornado. So i hope there will be much more "red" planes in the future (different Su and Mig types).

[Rubberduck85]

Is this "Redfor status in DCS 2: electric boogaloo" ?

Sent from my MI 10 Lite 5G using Tapatalk

[Harzach]

2 hours ago, EasyEB said:

Oh my sweet summer child.

 

OK boomer.

Yeah, there was one in II as well, and they weren't real Hinds, but the effect was the same. I know I'm not alone in originally thinking the Apache was cool because of Blue Thunder, which was a Gazelle. 

 

I wasn't really a Rambo fan.

[Northstar98]

54 minutes ago, ResonantCard1 said:

However that AIM-7 is being used by the best fighter ever made, and the Tomcat was numerous enough to make those Phoenix count. Not to speak of the agility of both planes. They're legends for a reason.

 

You kinda missed the point but okay.

 

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Even the AH-1S/J/W is way better than the Hind. Also yes, the Mi-24P is absolutely a contemporary to the Apache because Russia itself still uses it widely.

 

Not really, just because an aircraft is still in service, doesn't mean it's a contemporary, it's a contemporary to the Mi-28 and Mi-28N, because both helicopters are much more similar.

 

I mean this is like saying that the MiG-23 is a contemporary to the F-15C, because both were around at the time, whereas the actual contemporary is arguably the MiG-29/Su-27.

 

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I mean, yes it's kind of boring, but that's just because it's so good it almost fights by itself, and people loves that. They're going to be getting it just for the thought of not having to spend any effort on getting kills. There's plenty of people like that.

 

There sure are...

 

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https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-an-f-15e-shot-down-an-iraqi-mi-24-attack-helicopter-with-a-2000lb-laser-guided-bomb/

 

While intriguing and quite hilarious, you again missed the point; the Hind gained infamy due to the Soviet-Afghan war, not by being bombed.

 

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That's a shame because ED can't make something contemporary to what Blue has now. Even the MiG-29 9.12 is 20 to 30 years older than whatever Blue has now. And even if we had exact contemporaries they still wouldn't be a huge challenge, their radars are just now getting up to par, their missiles are still abyssmal, and their systems are still prehistoric. 

 

The much better and more feasible solution is to do older BLUFOR aircraft (which should've probably been the ones to do from the get go).

 

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Because that's how it is. Comparing timeframes is completely irrelevant if all you want is buy a new module. You're not going to buy a MiG-21 over the Hornet because "The MiG-21 was good for its timeframe so it has to be good for me too even if all I'm going to fight are Hornet-tier opponents". No, if you have 80 bucks to buy a module you'll buy the module that brings more to the table, otherwise it's lost money. That's why you see that many Hornets, because the Hornet is the most capable module with the most things to do.

 

Right, but you're not addressing the point I made are you? You're coming up with a completely loaded scenario and then saying look the F/A-18C is better than the 30 year old MiG-21bis, who would've guessed?

 

The most expensive purchase I've made in DCS, is probably the Tomcat, was it a waste of money as opposed to the JF-17? 

 

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It can do everything better than the rest, so people buys it because otherwise they'd run out of things to do before considering their money has been well spent.

 

So I take it the only reason why anybody buys modules ever is capabilities and capabilities alone...

 

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And that's a very reallistic situation you see. In Iraq that's all the US did, fight planes 20 to 40 years older flown by bad pilots. DCS brings the most reallistic combat scenarios forth, it's just that they aren't very engaging in terms of gameplay. But that's how modern air wars are.

 

Speaking of Iraq, do we have even have any Gulf War BLUFOR assets at all? Mirage 2000C and that's it? Nor do we have Iraq.

 

In the mid 2000s among contemporary adversaries, and by that I mean NATO vs the Warsaw Pact for the Cold War and NATO vs Russia/China for modern, it would be totally unrealistic to have one side just bring initial production variants from the 80s and 90s; no you'd see newer aircraft and newer units.

 

Hell, even Iran has Pantsir-S1 and S-300PMU...

 

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Again, vocal minority. Everytime the MiG-29 comes up I see the exact same people asking for it. But everytime I see an US aircraft come up I see more and more people I don't recognize ask for it. Redfor is simply a minority in DCS, they make a lot of noise but that doesn't mean it's not a minority. 

 

So why are ED doing one then?

 

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The Hind will show ED that the correct way to go is to keep making American modules, the MiG-29 will be cancelled, we're going to see the F-35 soon.

 

And DCS will become even more of an incoherent mess with nothing fitting together, what's better than fighting something 20 years out of date? Fighting something 40 years out of date (and this is at the very best!), I might as well do a fleet defence mission in the F-14 against a load of Ju-88s - the age gap is about the same for an early F-14A.

 

And what happens if we do get one, ED goes out of business? I don't know if you've realised, but they're fast running out of modern US aircraft that they can feasibly do.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Northstar98

[ResonantCard1]

1 minute ago, Northstar98 said:

I mean this is like saying that the MiG-23 is a contemporary to the F-15C, because both were around at the time, whereas the actual contemporary is arguably the MiG-29/Su-27.

 

Well the MiG-23MLA was introduced more or less around the time the F-15C was introduced...

 

4 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

So why are ED doing one then?

 

They aren't, that's the point lol. They're not going to make it. 

[Northstar98]

25 minutes ago, ResonantCard1 said:

Well the MiG-23MLA was introduced more or less around the time the F-15C was introduced...

 

I apologise I should've used to word comparable, instead of contemporary. But even so, do we have an 80s F-15C? Funny how it has AIM-120C5s from the early 2000s, maybe it isn't so much of a contemporary after all...

 

Quote

They aren't, that's the point lol. They're not going to make it. 

 

Uh huh, but switching back to reality, it's more the case is that you don't want them to make it. You've so far tried to spin it in that it wouldn't be profitable at all, but I have a hunch it's more the case of you can't bare the thought of anyone but the US getting FF modules, after all the only combat aircraft anybody is ever interested in are US ones, it's the only nation on the planet, right?

 

 

As for they're not going to make it.

 

 

I guess it's much the same as when BST didn't make the MiG-15bis, F-86F, Mi-8MTV-2, UH-1H and F-5E-3, oh wait.

 

Or when Leatherneck didn't make the MiG-21bis, oh wait.

 

Or how ED aren't making a Hind, oh wait. 

 

Or when Heatblur didn't make the Viggen, oh wait.

 

Or how there aren't any WWII assets, maps or modules in DCS, oh wait. 

 

 

Unless, Kate, the chief operations officer (sounds important), is telling us some porkies?

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Northstar98

[EasyEB]

55 minutes ago, Harzach said:

I know I'm not alone in originally thinking the Apache was cool because of Blue Thunder, which was a Gazelle.

 

You are just all over the place today, aren't you?